Moderator: Vympel
Mainly that it's 40mm grenade launcher ammo?Batman wrote:No rifle ever manufactured includes ammunition. It comes seperately, hence the evolution known as loading. Your reasons for the impossibility of 5.56x45 HEDP would be?PayBack wrote: There's also the point that the M16A2 does NOT include an HEDP round.
Batman wrote: No rifle ever manufactured includes ammunition. It comes seperately, hence the evolution known as loading. Your reasons for the impossibility of 5.56x45 HEDP would be?
Emphasis mine.Kartr_Kana wrote:No "CPL" the always tell us to aim center mass, and the ranges are 500 and 800. Remember I am a Marine not in the Army. What do you mean by individual and group fire? Are you talking about semi-auto and burst?
I will bring the stats as laid down in our manual.
The kids dorky, but cut him some slack. If what he says is true, he's just out of boot and just starting his A school. Simply, he probably just knows how to blouse his boots, let alone standard or advanced tactics and doctrine.Sr.mal wrote:Emphasis mine.Kartr_Kana wrote:No "CPL" the always tell us to aim center mass, and the ranges are 500 and 800. Remember I am a Marine not in the Army. What do you mean by individual and group fire? Are you talking about semi-auto and burst?
I will bring the stats as laid down in our manual.
If you were truly a marine, then you would know that individual fire is one man firing, and group fire, is a fire team or platoon firing.
The E-11 is definately supposed to be a carbine for close quarters work. In the DS, some stormtroopers and Han and Luke in particular had the E-11 holstered. So perhaps a comparion with the MP7 PDW would be closer.Lazarus wrote:Surely an MP5-A3/5 would be a better comparison for the E-11? Both are designed to be compact weapons that can have their stocks deployed for greater accuracy, they even remotely resemble each other visually (I have compared my MP5 A5 replica with my E-11 replica, they are pretty similar, except the E-11 grip is farther forward as it has no mag, the length difference is a few centimetres, and this is stocks retracted).
Ya think?Crazedwraith wrote:Perhaps a WWII Sterling SMG would be the best comparision...
True, but I still knew what that stuff was when I just got out of boot.Knife wrote:The kids dorky, but cut him some slack. If what he says is true, he's just out of boot and just starting his A school. Simply, he probably just knows how to blouse his boots, let alone standard or advanced tactics and doctrine.Sr.mal wrote:Emphasis mine.Kartr_Kana wrote:No "CPL" the always tell us to aim center mass, and the ranges are 500 and 800. Remember I am a Marine not in the Army. What do you mean by individual and group fire? Are you talking about semi-auto and burst?
I will bring the stats as laid down in our manual.
If you were truly a marine, then you would know that individual fire is one man firing, and group fire, is a fire team or platoon firing.
Short answer: No.Kartr_Kana wrote:The point behind this thread was to see if modern infantry could defeat stormtroopers. or if any infantry weapons were comparable to SWs in terms of firepower/range
Just out of interest would the bullets momentum cause any damage to the Stormtrooper through the armour?Elheru Aran wrote:Short answer: No.Kartr_Kana wrote:The point behind this thread was to see if modern infantry could defeat stormtroopers. or if any infantry weapons were comparable to SWs in terms of firepower/range
Longer answer: The infantry might be able to drop a few stormies if they got in some lucky hits, notably on the flexible bodyglove, but stormtrooper weapons and armour would carry the day. When your shots can be ratcheted up to the point where each one has the destructive force of a small grenade...
First of all the 5.56 round is not sentient, so it will not "happily" penetrate at that range. Hey I'm being no more of a dick about it than you are with the "loading" bullshit so meh. Given time I'll make an effort to fine evidence of people questioning the stopping power of the 5.56 round at that kind of range.Batman wrote:And that's garbage again. 5.56 NATO will happily penetrate heavy clothing at that range providing you actually manage to hit.PayBack wrote: Apart from the fact the only way you could hit someone in the head at 500 metres with an M16 is if you use the force, and the fact if you hit him in the chest at 800 metres you better hope it's not winter cos in heavy clothing or body armour he very well may not go down.
The limiting factor WRT effective range usually isn't penetrating power, it's accuracy.No rifle ever manufactured includes ammunition. It comes separately, hence the evolution known as loading. Your reasons for the impossibility of 5.56x45 HEDP would be?There's also the point that the M16A2 does NOT include an HEDP round.
It'd still go with an M4 comparison. That is also a carbine that front line troops are issued. Neither the MP5 nor the MP7 are for front line troops (though with the MP5 I'm leaving myself open because yes they're used by special forces but generally for anti terrorist work, not on the battlefield). The MP7 is for rear area troops for whom carrying a carbine like the M4 is inconvenient.Knife wrote:The E-11 is definitely supposed to be a carbine for close quarters work. In the DS, some stormtroopers and Han and Luke in particular had the E-11 holstered. So perhaps a comparison with the MP7 PDW would be closer.Lazarus wrote:Surely an MP5-A3/5 would be a better comparison for the E-11? Both are designed to be compact weapons that can have their stocks deployed for greater accuracy, they even remotely resemble each other visually (I have compared my MP5 A5 replica with my E-11 replica, they are pretty similar, except the E-11 grip is farther forward as it has no mag, the length difference is a few centimetres, and this is stocks retracted).
Go right ahead. Turnabout's fair play, that was definitely uncalled for. I apologize.PayBack wrote: First of all the 5.56 round is not sentient, so it will not "happily" penetrate at that range. Hey I'm being no more of a dick about it than you are with the "loading" bullshit so meh.
I'd be very interested in that. I would be rather surprised if heavy clothing makes much of a difference for standard ball/FMJ rounds at any ranges worth considering but I've been wrong before.Given time I'll make an effort to fine evidence of people questioning the stopping power of the 5.56 round at that kind of range.
Propably because it'd be useless as hell.I also didn't say a 5.56 HEDP round was impossible did I? I DID say that I'd be fucking impressed if the US Marines had a 5.56 mm High Explosive Dual Purpose round... which they don't.
Actually they're used in any number of large-calibre weapons from 20mm to Tank guns.HEDP rounds are used in a grenade launcher you fucking nit picking dickhead.
I'm sure a MOAB could kill a Stormtrooper, but when you have to use something bigger than standard issue assault rifles you are in effect admitting defeat.Kartr_Kana wrote:How would the M203 do against stormies? If blasters do the damage of a small grenade wouldn't the M203 be able to kill them?
I assume that ST armor is designed to either deflect or mitigate the damge done by a blaster. I'm not so sure you can translate that to bullet proof. There might be something in the EU about it, but I can't think of one.Elheru Aran wrote:If the shrapnel managed to make its way through the body glove? Sure. Otherwise it's more likely to just make a few nicks in the armour. You'd need something more like a LAW or RPG, direct hit, to blast through the armour.
There's a few things in the EU, like the fact that the Rebels had to supply native insurgents with high-tech explosive rounds to be a credible threat to Stormie armor. That, and the javelin of doom quote 'It slices, it dices, it picks stormies off the ground and chucks them into a wall... and they walk it off, krif.'Knife wrote:I assume that ST armor is designed to either deflect or mitigate the damge done by a blaster. I'm not so sure you can translate that to bullet proof. There might be something in the EU about it, but I can't think of one.Elheru Aran wrote:If the shrapnel managed to make its way through the body glove? Sure. Otherwise it's more likely to just make a few nicks in the armour. You'd need something more like a LAW or RPG, direct hit, to blast through the armour.
Having an arrow bounce off of it is a bit different than a .223.
The USMC very optimistically rates it as effective at 550 meters against a point target, like an enemy machine gun crew, not a persons head, and 800 meters against an area target, like a vechical. The rifle does not firing exploding ammo of any form, though the clip on M203 grenade launch can indeed fire HEDP grenades.Kartr_Kana wrote: Off the top of my head the M16A2 fires a 5.56mm round. And is accurate enough to hit a man in the head at 500m, in the torso at 800m. Its rounds include the HEDP which is used to destroy light armored vehicles (2inches steel IIRC)
I can't for the life of me find the relevant threads right now but there WAS extensive discussion about that (a spear thrown by a droid so hard it lifted a Stormy off his feet and threw him several metres without so much as denting the armor. IIRC it was from one of the YJK books), so I think we can safely assume .223 or even .308 won't penetrate Stormie armor.Wether or not they do damage via momentum transfer is a wholly different ballgame.Knife wrote: I assume that ST armor is designed to either deflect or mitigate the damge done by a blaster. I'm not so sure you can translate that to bullet proof. There might be something in the EU about it, but I can't think of one.
Having an arrow bounce off of it is a bit different than a .223.
Ok. But still, a spear isn't a rifle round either.Batman wrote:I can't for the life of me find the relevant threads right now but there WAS extensive discussion about that (a spear thrown by a droid so hard it lifted a Stormy off his feet and threw him several metres without so much as denting the armor. IIRC it was from one of the YJK books), so I think we can safely assume .223 or even .308 won't penetrate Stormie armor.Wether or not they do damage via momentum transfer is a wholly different ballgame.Knife wrote: I assume that ST armor is designed to either deflect or mitigate the damge done by a blaster. I'm not so sure you can translate that to bullet proof. There might be something in the EU about it, but I can't think of one.
Having an arrow bounce off of it is a bit different than a .223.
Dude do you have a problem with me? That's about the third time you've attacked me for no good reason that I can see. If there's something I'm doing or have done that's pissed you off, at least let me know what it is.Batman wrote:Go right ahead. Turnabout's fair play, that was definitely uncalled for. I apologize.
That comment came from recalling back in the days where I read Soldier of Fortune magazine (back before the Internet when I actually read magazines) and I'll admit it was a bit like the 9mm vs the .45 arguments where there was as much opinion as proof.I'd be very interested in that. I would be rather surprised if heavy clothing makes much of a difference for standard ball/FMJ rounds at any ranges worth considering but I've been wrong before.
Exactly.Propably because it'd be useless as hell.
Yeah I know, it was just that it was the one used in the M203 that Kartr_Kana would have been referring to.Actually they're used in any number of large-calibre weapons from 20mm to Tank guns.
