Hitler: Christian or Pagan?

OmegaGuy · Post by **OmegaGuy** » 2006-02-26 06:51pm

An interesting debate recently came up on spacebattles:

http://forum.spacebattles.com/showthread.php?t=96887

So I was wondering if there is any truth to the accusation that Hitler was a pagan and merely claimed to be Christian for the benefit of the public?

Evidence given was his involvement with the Occult and some sites like this: http://www.islamdenouncesantisemitism.com/thepagan.htm

And quotes like this:

Hitler was a politician and as the dude in Spartacus says about the Gods "privately I believe in none of them , publically I believe in all of them". He spoke from both sides of his mouth. In speeches he played the populist, but in private.... most likely his real beliefs were a kind of darwinistic racial gnosticism. Much of his statesments that were pro-christian came from public speeches in his early days, when he needed public support to gain power.

Here are some quotes to show that Hitler was NOT a standard Christian

"Hitler: A Study in Tyranny: "I'll make these damned parsons feel the power of the state in a way they would have never believed possible. For the moment, I am just keeping my eye upon them: if I ever have the slightest suspicion that they are getting dangerous, I will shoot the lot of them. This filthy reptile raises its head whenever there is a sign of weakness in the State, and therefore it must be stamped on. We have no sort of use for a fairy story invented by the Jews.""

Hitler's Secret Conversations 1941-1944 "The best thing is to let Christianity die a natural death.... When understanding of the universe has become widespread... Christian doctrine will be convicted of absurdity.... Christianity has reached the peak of absurdity.... And that's why someday its structure will collapse.... ...the only way to get rid of Christianity is to allow it to die little by little.... Christianity the liar.... We'll see to it that the Churches cannot spread abroad teachings in conflict with the interests of the State."

Hitler's Secret Conversations 1941-1944 "Christianity is an invention of sick brains: one could imagine nothing more senseless, nor any more indecent way of turning the idea of the Godhead into a mockery ... When all is said, we have no reason to wish that the Italians and Spaniards should free themselves from the drug of Christianity. Let's be the only people who are immunised against the disease."

"Christianity is a rebellion against natural law, a protest against nature. Taken to its logical extreme, Christianity would mean the systematic cultivation of the human failure"

"The reason why the ancient world was so pure, light and serene was that it knew nothing of the two great scourges: the pox and Christianity."

"Originally, Christianity was merely an incarnation of Bolshevism, the destroyer.... The decisive falsification of Jesus' doctrine was the work of St.Paul. He gave himself to this work... for the purposes of personal exploitation.... Didn't the world see, carried on right into the Middle Ages, the same old system of martyrs, tortures, faggots? Of old, it was in the name of Christianity. Today, it's in the name of Bolshevism. Yesterday the instigator was Saul: the instigator today, Mardochai. Saul was changed into St.Paul, and Mardochai into Karl Marx. By exterminating this pest, we shall do humanity a service of which our soldiers can have no idea"

"Kerrl, with noblest of intentions, wanted to attempt a synthesis between National Socialism and Christianity. I don't believe the thing's possible, and I see the obstacle in Christianity itself.... Pure Christianity-- the Christianity of the catacombs-- is concerned with translating Christian doctrine into facts. It leads quite simply to the annihilation of mankind. It is merely whole-hearted Bolshevism, under a tinsel of metaphysics"

"It would always be disagreeable for me to go down to posterity as a man who made concessions in this field. I realize that man, in his imperfection, can commit innumerable errors-- but to devote myself deliberately to errors, that is something I cannot do. I shall never come personally to terms with the Christian lie. Our epoch Uin the next 200 yearse will certainly see the end of the disease of Christianity.... My regret will have been that I couldn't... behold"

And yes, i am aware that some scholars, especially atheist scholars who wish to prove that all evil is christianity and all good is athiest, consider Hitler's table talk to have been partially forged, I am also aware that most scholars consider it to be quite authentic

So what is the truth of the matter?

Aaron · Post by **Aaron** » 2006-02-26 07:07pm

Check out Mein Kampf it does a pretty good job of confirming that Hitler was a Christian.

I aslo refer you to here. Which is Mike Wongs page on Hitler and his religion. It's a good read and dispels the myth that Hitler was a pagan.

OmegaGuy · Post by **OmegaGuy** » 2006-02-26 07:08pm

I showed them that but they said it was likely that that was just a front he was putting on for the public to get approval.

Knife · Post by **Knife** » 2006-02-26 07:13pm

Besides letting Christianity off the hook for the deeds of Hitler, what does it matter what religion he was? Asking the question, atleast framed like this, just makes it seem like a bad attempt to equate pegans and evil nazi dudes.

Aaron · Post by **Aaron** » 2006-02-26 07:20pm

OmegaGuy wrote:I showed them that but they said it was likely that that was just a front he was putting on for the public to get approval.

Mein Kampf is pretty much the ace in the hole. It spells out Hitlers beliefs before he became a player in German politics and before he had any reason to put up a "front" for the public. It was written while he was in prison and contains everything that he planned to do when he achieved power and if you read it leaves little doubt that he was a Christian, albiet a deranged one.

OmegaGuy · Post by **OmegaGuy** » 2006-02-26 07:24pm

So what about all his Anti - Christian quotes?

Aaron · Post by **Aaron** » 2006-02-26 07:25pm

Ultimately it doesn't matter whether Hitler was a Christian or a Pagan. Christians just don't want to admit it because they refuse to believe that one of their own could commit the horrors that he did.

OmegaGuy · Post by **OmegaGuy** » 2006-02-26 07:35pm

Yeah, I know, but for the purposes of this thread I'm trying to figure out what his religion was.

Nephtys · Post by **Nephtys** » 2006-02-26 07:37pm

OmegaGuy wrote:Yeah, I know, but for the purposes of this thread I'm trying to figure out what his religion was.

He's a Christian. Period.

Aaron · Post by **Aaron** » 2006-02-26 07:48pm

OmegaGuy wrote:So what about all his Anti - Christian quotes?

Such as?

Aaron · Post by **Aaron** » 2006-02-26 07:52pm

If your refering to the "private" conversations, most of those have been debunked as hearsay.

OmegaGuy · Post by **OmegaGuy** » 2006-02-26 09:10pm

May I please have a link to where they have been debunked?

Boyish-Tigerlilly · Post by **Boyish-Tigerlilly** » 2006-02-26 09:20pm

Well, we know that Hitler was a Christian in his youth. I believe he was a Catholic. He was also Christian later in life, but I have found that Hitler is contradictory at best. Sometimes, he attacks christianity, sometimes he uses it. I think he was a Christian, but really didn't keep track of what he was saying in his speeches anyway.

It's not like anyone would care if he made sense. His power was through his voice and physical projection, not really the cogency of his message. In fact, most of the Nazis were self-contradictory insofar as they would support something one moment, and then not the next. Hitler's Nazi Christianity was a buffet-table brande. He took ideas and amalgamated them with other non-Christian ideas. I would suggest a book called "The Hitler Myth.' It as well as Inside Hitler's Germany go into great detail about Hitler's use of Christianity as a tool. To me, it seems that he was both a Christian and he used it as a tool to his advantage. Other Nazis, however, might have been somewhat different. I have read quotes from other high level officials who, on one hand, would decry it, and then on the other, use it. It really made no sense.

However, even if he were not Christian, many of the Germans who fell sway to his ideas and use of Christian ideology were. It is telling that they would belief his stuff with such fervor being "Good Christians"(TM). I say this because in academics, it is still debated what Hitler was in his later years. Many historians seem to believe he was just a clever man who used what was profitable, but that doesn't absolve him of anything. To put up some quotes by Hitler and where you can reference them:

1. “I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so.”

( Adolf Hitler, from John Toland [Pulitzer Prize winner], Adolf Hitler, New York: Anchor Publishing, 1992, p. 507. )

Reference

Elfdart · Post by **Elfdart** » 2006-02-26 09:38pm

OmegaGuy wrote:So what about all his Anti - Christian quotes?

The Book of Revelation is full of attacks on Christians by Christians. By the logic of your sparring partners, the Bible must not really be Christian, either.

LongVin · Post by **LongVin** » 2006-02-26 09:53pm

It seriously depends on who is writing the material. There is material that points to Christianity but then there is also material thats points to neo pagan ideas.

The book "Unholy Alliance" by Peter Levenda talks alot about Nazisms pagan influences and its founding members.

brianeyci · Post by **brianeyci** » 2006-02-26 10:32pm

It does depend on who is writing the material, aka the Furher himself and Mein Kampf.

Seriously it's starting to sound like fundies calling The Bible a secondary source. If Mein Kampf written before Hitler comes to power and predicting everything he does isn't an authoratative source on Hitler's beliefs, nothing else is.

Brian

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2006-02-26 10:36pm

LongVin wrote:It seriously depends on who is writing the material. There is material that points to Christianity but then there is also material thats points to neo pagan ideas.

The book "Unholy Alliance" by Peter Levenda talks alot about Nazisms pagan influences and its founding members.

There were neopagans in the Nazi power structure, and people with heavily mystic ideas. However, the question was on Hitler himself, who was unquestionably Catholic.

As for him attacking Christianity.. Well, I'd love to see the phrases. I am quite sure they likely add up to the same attacks catholics use on other sects.

LongVin · Post by **LongVin** » 2006-02-26 10:47pm

SirNitram wrote:
LongVin wrote:It seriously depends on who is writing the material. There is material that points to Christianity but then there is also material thats points to neo pagan ideas.

The book "Unholy Alliance" by Peter Levenda talks alot about Nazisms pagan influences and its founding members.
There were neopagans in the Nazi power structure, and people with heavily mystic ideas. However, the question was on Hitler himself, who was unquestionably Catholic.

As for him attacking Christianity.. Well, I'd love to see the phrases. I am quite sure they likely add up to the same attacks catholics use on other sects.

Well the thing is with Hitler is his private life was well very private. So no one really knows his own personal beliefs on a lot of subjects and they only know his public face.

Mein Kampf does offer a good example of Hitlers personal beliefs but it primarily is a political tool. In the book he discusses the Jewish question but he doesn't outright say hes going to kill them. Nor does he state why he hates the Jews other then just the claim of them being "Anti German."

Even with Mein Kampf most of Hitler's motivations and true personal beliefs are unknown. Which then leads to the idea that Hitler was pagan based on the founders of the Nazi party and some of the high ranking officials(most notably Himmler.)

In "Unholy Alliance" its speculated that Hitler was extremely turned off too Christianity because his own mother died on Christmas and that while he was suffering everyone else was celebrating.

Post by **Surlethe** » 2006-02-26 10:50pm

LongVin wrote:Well the thing is with Hitler is his private life was well very private. So no one really knows his own personal beliefs on a lot of subjects and they only know his public face.

Mein Kampf does offer a good example of Hitlers personal beliefs but it primarily is a political tool. In the book he discusses the Jewish question but he doesn't outright say hes going to kill them. Nor does he state why he hates the Jews other then just the claim of them being "Anti German."

Even with Mein Kampf most of Hitler's motivations and true personal beliefs are unknown. Which then leads to the idea that Hitler was pagan based on the founders of the Nazi party and some of the high ranking officials(most notably Himmler.)

In "Unholy Alliance" its speculated that Hitler was extremely turned off too Christianity because his own mother died on Christmas and that while he was suffering everyone else was celebrating.

So, is it correct to boil your claim down to the following?

"We do not absolutely know Hitler's personal beliefs. Despite the evidence presented in Mein Kampf, and because of the fact Hitler didn't outright say he would kill the Jews, because we can never be absolutely sure of Hitler's personal beliefs, he must not have been Christian."

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2006-02-26 10:57pm

LongVin wrote:Well the thing is with Hitler is his private life was well very private. So no one really knows his own personal beliefs on a lot of subjects and they only know his public face.

So what is your evidence we shouldn't just go with what we saw, IE, that he was thoroughly Catholic?

Mein Kampf does offer a good example of Hitlers personal beliefs but it primarily is a political tool. In the book he discusses the Jewish question but he doesn't outright say hes going to kill them. Nor does he state why he hates the Jews other then just the claim of them being "Anti German."

And this offers what towards whether he was Catholic? Oh yes, nothing.

Even with Mein Kampf most of Hitler's motivations and true personal beliefs are unknown. Which then leads to the idea that Hitler was pagan based on the founders of the Nazi party and some of the high ranking officials(most notably Himmler.)

So there's no actual evidence, just claims that because Himmler was a pagan, Hitler had to be too. Good show, that doesn't qualify as a logical argument in any way.

In "Unholy Alliance" its speculated that Hitler was extremely turned off too Christianity because his own mother died on Christmas and that while he was suffering everyone else was celebrating.

Ah yes, unsupported speculation, the last straw of an apologist.

What the fuck is wrong with you that you can't simply lay down and admit he was? I mean, it's not like there aren't already plenty of atrocities, one more isn't going to damn you.

LongVin · Post by **LongVin** » 2006-02-26 10:57pm

I am saying Mein Kampf was primarily a political tool. Germany was then a basicially Christian nation it was in his best interests to present a Christian face to his book and speeches.

From what we know about Hitler we get decidingly mixed messages about Hitlers Christianity or lack their of. There is evidence pointing towards Christianity, there is evidence pointing towards Neo Paganism, and there is evidence pointing towards Atheism. But since Hitler never kept personal journals or diaries(or if he did they were lost) we can't really know his own personal beliefs. So lacking that or somehow a way to go and ask Hitler what he really thought we can't say what he was one way or another.

LongVin · Post by **LongVin** » 2006-02-26 10:59pm

SirNitram wrote:
LongVin wrote:Well the thing is with Hitler is his private life was well very private. So no one really knows his own personal beliefs on a lot of subjects and they only know his public face.
So what is your evidence we shouldn't just go with what we saw, IE, that he was thoroughly Catholic?

Mein Kampf does offer a good example of Hitlers personal beliefs but it primarily is a political tool. In the book he discusses the Jewish question but he doesn't outright say hes going to kill them. Nor does he state why he hates the Jews other then just the claim of them being "Anti German."
And this offers what towards whether he was Catholic? Oh yes, nothing.

Even with Mein Kampf most of Hitler's motivations and true personal beliefs are unknown. Which then leads to the idea that Hitler was pagan based on the founders of the Nazi party and some of the high ranking officials(most notably Himmler.)
So there's no actual evidence, just claims that because Himmler was a pagan, Hitler had to be too. Good show, that doesn't qualify as a logical argument in any way.

In "Unholy Alliance" its speculated that Hitler was extremely turned off too Christianity because his own mother died on Christmas and that while he was suffering everyone else was celebrating.
Ah yes, unsupported speculation, the last straw of an apologist.

What the fuck is wrong with you that you can't simply lay down and admit he was? I mean, it's not like there aren't already plenty of atrocities, one more isn't going to damn you.

I was just saying there is not definitave evidence that points in either direction. Everything with Hitler is primarily speculation since he was a private individual and everything he did or say in public was carefully measured and designed for effect.

Post by **Surlethe** » 2006-02-26 11:00pm

LongVin wrote:I am saying Mein Kampf was primarily a political tool. Germany was then a basicially Christian nation it was in his best interests to present a Christian face to his book and speeches.

From what we know about Hitler we get decidingly mixed messages about Hitlers Christianity or lack their of. There is evidence pointing towards Christianity, there is evidence pointing towards Neo Paganism, and there is evidence pointing towards Atheism. But since Hitler never kept personal journals or diaries(or if he did they were lost) we can't really know his own personal beliefs. So lacking that or somehow a way to go and ask Hitler what he really thought we can't say what he was one way or another.

Would you like to present evidence for Hitler's neo-Paganism or atheism? Otherwise, your argument is an appeal to ignorance by attempting to rationalize contrary evidence.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2006-02-26 11:03pm

LongVin wrote:I was just saying there is not definitave evidence that points in either direction. Everything with Hitler is primarily speculation since he was a private individual and everything he did or say in public was carefully measured and designed for effect.

No it's not, you stupid shithead. We have his statements, those are quite definitive. You're just playing an Appeal to Ignorance fallacy because you have no logical argument.

LongVin · Post by **LongVin** » 2006-02-26 11:05pm

SirNitram wrote:
LongVin wrote:I was just saying there is not definitave evidence that points in either direction. Everything with Hitler is primarily speculation since he was a private individual and everything he did or say in public was carefully measured and designed for effect.
No it's not, you stupid shithead. We have his statements, those are quite definitive. You're just playing an Appeal to Ignorance fallacy because you have no logical argument.

And those statements might not of been said for the public effect? Hitler is not one you to be considered the most honest of individuals