LongVin wrote:I was just saying there is not definitave evidence that points in either direction. Everything with Hitler is primarily speculation since he was a private individual and everything he did or say in public was carefully measured and designed for effect.
No it's not, you stupid shithead. We have his statements, those are quite definitive. You're just playing an Appeal to Ignorance fallacy because you have no logical argument.
And those statements might not of been said for the public effect? Hitler is not one you to be considered the most honest of individuals
If there was actual evidence to the contrary you might be able to build an argument, but since you are simply falling back on appeals to ignorance, this must not exist.
Again. Your argument is logically fallacious. Build a new one, or concede.
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Taken from "Unholy Alliance" pg. 352 on Nazisms pagan cult like appearance and influence which summarizes a chapter in which Hitler attempted to be regarded as a godfigure. It also shows how the SS(considered the most diehard and pure Nazis) were founded along cult lines.
If, after all the arguements given in the preceding pages, we still have a problem regarding Hitler as a cult leader(and the Nazi Party as a cult) that is probably because he was more successful than most. Shrewder, more pragmatic, and more charismatic than most other cult leaders, he also came along at the right time for a Germany that was suffering humilation after its military defeat in World War I, a severe economic depressionm and the annexation of its territories by neighboring countries. In a sense the siege mentality so indicative of cult life was already in place by the time Hitler arrived on the scene promising a heaven on earth to those willing to die for the cause. In the end, the only troops he trusted (particulary after the July 1944 assasination attempt) were the black clad officers of Himmler's SS, the elite Order that had been designed along purely pagan and anti-Christian, anti Jewish lines, a cult priesthood whose headquarters at Wewelsburg was outfitted like a Nietzchean Camelot to receive the Aryan Holy Grail
LongVin wrote:Taken from "Unholy Alliance" pg. 352 on Nazisms pagan cult like appearance and influence which summarizes a chapter in which Hitler attempted to be regarded as a godfigure. It also shows how the SS(considered the most diehard and pure Nazis) were founded along cult lines.
You're a real peice of work. You think there can't be cults which are Christian?
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Another quote describing how just as Hitler allied himself with Industrialists and Capitalists even though he believed both to be inventions of the Jews he does the same with Christian groups. This quote references back to a previous mention of Hitlers support for Pagan groups but I can't find that quote just yet.
Hitler very carefully sought to cultivate Christian(and especially Catholic) support for the party as they remained a substanial voting bloc within the country. Indeed, the Catholic Center Party played a pivotal role in Reichstag elections that catapulted Hitler to power. And just as he wooed the financial support of leading industrialists in contradiction to his personal beliefs concering the evils of that "Jewish invention," Capitalism, he also courted the powerful Catholic and other Christian lobbies in the country. He knew he could not afford to alienate them entirely from his program, at least not until after he had won the war; for rthis reason he occasionally found it valuable to attack occultism and volkisch paganism in his speeches, even while encouraging it among his entourage and condoning its manifestation in the SS.
LongVin wrote:Taken from "Unholy Alliance" pg. 352 on Nazisms pagan cult like appearance and influence which summarizes a chapter in which Hitler attempted to be regarded as a godfigure. It also shows how the SS(considered the most diehard and pure Nazis) were founded along cult lines.
You're a real peice of work. You think there can't be cults which are Christian?
Read the quote. It clearly states the Nazi cult personified through the SS was anti Christian.
LongVin wrote:Taken from "Unholy Alliance" pg. 352 on Nazisms pagan cult like appearance and influence which summarizes a chapter in which Hitler attempted to be regarded as a godfigure. It also shows how the SS(considered the most diehard and pure Nazis) were founded along cult lines.
You're a real peice of work. You think there can't be cults which are Christian?
Read the quote. It clearly states the Nazi cult personified through the SS was anti Christian.
And what is the evidence to this claim? What is the evidence it's not the same as the 'Every other sect of Christianity leads people to Hell' I've heard from a dozen Catholics?
Or do you think yourself exempt from such?
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Out Of Context theatre: Ron Paul has repeatedly said he's not a racist. - Destructinator XIII on why Ron Paul isn't racist.
Christian or not, it's still a fact that Hitler used Christianity to commit those atrocities - that he needed Christianity's support. End of story. Unless apologists will start spewing out shit about how Nazi Germany was just pretending to be Christian, that all Germans are actually baby-eating voodoo pagans.
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I posted the entire quote from a section of the book in which in summary it said that the whole personification of Nazi Principles as seen in the SS were anti Christian.
The entire theme of the book is pointing out the occult and pagan nature of Nazism and I posted a brief summary presented in one of the chapters that highlights the anti Christian nature of Nazi Party Members.
LongVin wrote:I posted the entire quote from a section of the book in which in summary it said that the whole personification of Nazi Principles as seen in the SS were anti Christian.
The entire theme of the book is pointing out the occult and pagan nature of Nazism and I posted a brief summary presented in one of the chapters that highlights the anti Christian nature of Nazi Party Members.
And where would be that evidence I asked for, LongVin?
Manic Progressive: A liberal who violently swings from anger at politicos to despondency over them.
Out Of Context theatre: Ron Paul has repeatedly said he's not a racist. - Destructinator XIII on why Ron Paul isn't racist.
LongVin wrote:I posted the entire quote from a section of the book in which in summary it said that the whole personification of Nazi Principles as seen in the SS were anti Christian.
The entire theme of the book is pointing out the occult and pagan nature of Nazism and I posted a brief summary presented in one of the chapters that highlights the anti Christian nature of Nazi Party Members.
And where would be that evidence I asked for, LongVin?
I posted quotes directly from the book in which the author states that the SS was a Pagan institution and respresentative of Nazism which was asummary paragraph of an entire chapter devoted to the topic. That is the evidence. A word by word quote from the book. If thats not enough for you heres what you can do you can go to the library and take out the book and read it cover to cover. Because I am not typing up entire chapters of the book.
LongVin wrote:I posted quotes directly from the book in which the author states that the SS was a Pagan institution and respresentative of Nazism which was asummary paragraph of an entire chapter devoted to the topic. That is the evidence. A word by word quote from the book. If thats not enough for you heres what you can do you can go to the library and take out the book and read it cover to cover. Because I am not typing up entire chapters of the book.
You simply need to present evidence supporting the assertion. 'It Says So In A Book' is not evidence. If it was, there would be evidence for aliens, Santa Clause, Luke Skywalker, and the state of Wyoming.
Now. Are we going to get evidence, or just 'An apologist's book says so!'?
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Out Of Context theatre: Ron Paul has repeatedly said he's not a racist. - Destructinator XIII on why Ron Paul isn't racist.
I think he is mistaking Hitler for Himmler. Hitler was a catholic, but the Nazis in general did not resemble Hitler and Hitler alone. Of course there were other elements floating about in Nazi Germany that had nothing to do with Christianity, but that doesn't mean that Hitler wasn't.
For example, he is mentioning the occult and paganism. Yes. This did exist, but it was more a product of the non-christian members of the Nazi party. Himmler, for example, was highly influential in formulating the culture of the SS, not Hitler. Himmler was, after all, the chief architect of the group. His idea was to create a pure group that was more a cultural manifestation of his own little dreamworld. Meanwhile, Hitler, a Christian, peddled a new form of Christianity to the masses which amalgamated both nordic paganism and protestantism (Hitler got much influence from Martin Luther).
It is to be noted that Christianity morphed with Nazi politics to form what historians call a "political religion." Himmler was one of the major architects of this new religion which was to replace Christianity only in the most diehard Nazis. Hitler gave him a lot of freedom to do what he wanted. This is not to say that Hitler had nothing to do with it. Of course not. It is just that Hitler was more adamant about Christianity than Himmler.
If one looks at Hitler, he was merely morphing his own Nazified version of Christianity, a tactic used by many other Christians who wanted to create new sects. There were some things he didn't like sure, but I don't see how anyone can say that means he didn't like some aspects about the religion or did not support those aspects. It's more akin to buffet-table religion IMO. Not all that uncommon today either.
LongVin wrote:I gave evidence the book. I am not typing up 30 references to other articles he posted in the bibliography. Nor am I retyping the entire chapter.
The book is not evidence of anything but the author writing it. Evidence that Hitler was not Christian would be in specific actions he took which lead us to that conclusion, not an author saying 'No, he wasn't'. Any author can write that.
Manic Progressive: A liberal who violently swings from anger at politicos to despondency over them.
Out Of Context theatre: Ron Paul has repeatedly said he's not a racist. - Destructinator XIII on why Ron Paul isn't racist.
Stated in the book(pg. 80) backed up by footnotes to other sources:
That Hitler was fascinated by the occult is proven: The Berchtesgaden library, discovered in a mine after the war, contained many volumes on occultism. His small collection of books as a student contained works on mythology and a collection of Von Liebenels's racist occult magazine, Ostara...
Then it goes on to state
Friends of his from the early days recall long conversations on occult themes--everything from reincarnation to yoga to paganism and magic-- and his later biographers, such as Sir Allan Bullock, record Hitler's familiarity with occult topics in the days prior to the Second World War
Hitler was a Christian, albeit he believe in his own, Nazi, pretty fucked up version of Christianity.
There you go.
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LongVin wrote:I gave evidence the book. I am not typing up 30 references to other articles he posted in the bibliography. Nor am I retyping the entire chapter.
The book is not evidence of anything but the author writing it. Evidence that Hitler was not Christian would be in specific actions he took which lead us to that conclusion, not an author saying 'No, he wasn't'. Any author can write that.
LongVin wrote:Taken from "Unholy Alliance" pg. 352 on Nazisms pagan cult like appearance and influence which summarizes a chapter in which Hitler attempted to be regarded as a godfigure. It also shows how the SS(considered the most diehard and pure Nazis) were founded along cult lines.
If, after all the arguements given in the preceding pages, we still have a problem regarding Hitler as a cult leader(and the Nazi Party as a cult) that is probably because he was more successful than most. Shrewder, more pragmatic, and more charismatic than most other cult leaders, he also came along at the right time for a Germany that was suffering humilation after its military defeat in World War I, a severe economic depressionm and the annexation of its territories by neighboring countries. In a sense the siege mentality so indicative of cult life was already in place by the time Hitler arrived on the scene promising a heaven on earth to those willing to die for the cause. In the end, the only troops he trusted (particulary after the July 1944 assasination attempt) were the black clad officers of Himmler's SS, the elite Order that had been designed along purely pagan and anti-Christian, anti Jewish lines, a cult priesthood whose headquarters at Wewelsburg was outfitted like a Nietzchean Camelot to receive the Aryan Holy Grail
Nazism was a huge, polymorphous movement which Hitler, an indolent man who exercised surprisingly little control over many matters, absolutely did not exercise detailed control over every aspect of.
It is true that their were Pagan aspects to some parts of the Nazi movement most of which like the ones referenced in your quote ie the SS had a lot to do with Himmler and very little to do with Hitler.
Btw. Longvin has it really escaped your notice that your quote is merely the opinion of a single author on the nature of the Nazi movement and does not give us any evidence on Hitler’s beliefs.
OmegaGuy wrote:So what about all his Anti - Christian quotes?
If you are referring to quotes taken from ‘Hitler’s Table Talks’ they are of questionable reliability link.
‘Hitler’s Table Talks’ they are of questionable reliability
More than that:
Nobeliefs.org wrote:Anti-religious views by themselves simply cannot be used as an argument against one's personal beliefs as a Christian, and gives one of the many reasons why Hitler's Table-Talk, even if valid, cannot serve as evidence against Hitler's Christianity but, ironically, actually supports his personal beliefs as a Christian.
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Is anyone else sick and tired of fucking Christians? Look you goddamned mental midgets, yeah it's fun to believe in silly fucking things like demons, angels, Hitler being a pagan, etc., but wake up and smell the fucking reality. Let's get off this stupid bullshit about Hitler being into the occult. You morons always have some stupid conspiracy, fantasy, the need to get your garbage taught in public schools, etc.
You know what your problem is? The fact that you can't tell the difference between reality and fantasy. You apply the same rules your asshole clergymen teach you in church to the rest of your lives, and then you want this pathetic psychodrama to believe in. It's just like when people believed that satanic cults were abducting people and eating flesh and molesting babies. When the FBI investigated it, they concluded that there has never been one SINGLE reported case of satanic cult ritual abuse. As with EVERY GODAMNED thing, you Christians take the teeniest most non-existent things and blow them up into full-blown panics. Meanwhile, all the statistics ever gathered show you dumb shits to have higher rates of child abuse, divorce and spousal abuse than any other group. Good fucking job, you bunch of screwed up assholes. Let me know when you decide to mentally grow up.
You know what this argument is? It's "Hitler was so bad that he must have been Pagan! After all, my religion says Pagan = Satan." You simple minded dumb shits...
Can someone show me how to get into a parallel universe where these fucking assholes don't exist? I am so tired of the same old tired bullshit. Listen you fuckers, REALITY and fantasy are two different things! Hitler was not a goddamned Satanist, and frankly, if you believe that then you are worthless moron with the IQ of a fucking clam. You just want to believe it, because you’re pathetic and have a sick need for psychodrama, so you try to find evidence for it and then say “you see?” and the smallest thing that looks like what you want it to say. Leave it to you guys to come up with the stupidest shit ever, like "Intelligent Design," or Biblical infallibity.
I am SO FUCKING tired of the stupidity of Christians. How the fuck can some of you guys be smart enough to score high marks in high level university classes, yet still be so damned childlike that you believe in sky fairies? GROW THE FUCK UP!
LongVin wrote:Stated in the book(pg. 80) backed up by footnotes to other sources:
That Hitler was fascinated by the occult is proven: The Berchtesgaden library, discovered in a mine after the war, contained many volumes on occultism. His small collection of books as a student contained works on mythology and a collection of Von Liebenels's racist occult magazine, Ostara...
Then it goes on to state
Friends of his from the early days recall long conversations on occult themes--everything from reincarnation to yoga to paganism and magic-- and his later biographers, such as Sir Allan Bullock, record Hitler's familiarity with occult topics in the days prior to the Second World War
Even if this is true, can a Christian not be interested in the Occult? Also, my personal book collection has dozens of texts on classical, Norse, Asian, Indian, and Native American mythology, as well as at least two translations of the Bible and three of the Koran, and numerous Christian texts. Yet I do not subscribe to any of these religions.
Furthermore, why would Hitler's "Eagle's Nest" retreat have a cross on it if he wasn't Christian? Note that the site was his private property. Why would his paintings and drawings (from prior to WWI and just after it ended) contain numerous Christian themes if he wasn't a Christian? These are very difficult to discount because they had nothing to do with his political aspirations and cannot be discounted as such.
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