Hitler: Christian or Pagan?

Shroom Man 777 · Post by **Shroom Man 777** » 2006-02-27 02:28am

That and no one can say that the Nazi's ethnic cleansing is anti-Christian. After all, Christianity was already doing all that racist shit centuries before Hitler (I mean, the Inquisition, the Crusades). All Hitler did was take it to its logical extreme.

And at least Hitler didn't have the Gestapo arrest scientists who advocated the heliocentric theory :p

Post by **K. A. Pital** » 2006-02-27 02:32am

All Hitler did was take it to its logical extreme.

Indeed. All that he did to the Jews was already proposed centuries before by famous protestant ideologue Martin Luther in the book "Of the Jews and their Lies", where he calls for burning their houses and literally slaughtering them.

"Kristallnacht" (one of the first Jewish pogroms) was done on Luther's birthday.

Shroom Man 777 · Post by **Shroom Man 777** » 2006-02-27 03:51am

Oh, but...umm...Martin Luthor wasn't a real Christian! If he thought of that, then it is obvious he didn't really truely honestly possibly indeedly-deedly-doo have Jesus Christ in his heart! Because...the Bible said so! *fap fap fap*

Post by **K. A. Pital** » 2006-02-27 04:37am

Martin Luthor wasn't a real Christian!

Too bad he's not around, he'd probably do some good heretic burning for that...

Plekhanov · Post by **Plekhanov** » 2006-02-27 05:12am

LongVin wrote:It seriously depends on who is writing the material. There is material that points to Christianity but then there is also material thats points to neo pagan ideas.

The book "Unholy Alliance" by Peter Levenda talks alot about Nazisms pagan influences and its founding members.

I only just noticed that this was the book your were getting your ‘evidence’ from, this is most definitely not a reliable or scholarly source in fact if you cited this in an academic context they’d laugh in you face and then fail you. This Peter Levenda is a conspiracy nut a glance at a second book of his Amazon stock confirms this:

Sinister Forces-The Nine : A Grimoire of American Political Witchcraft
By Peter Levenda

Book Description
The roots of coincidence and conspiracy in American politics, crime, and culture are examined in this book that exposes new connections between religion, political conspiracy, and occultism. From ancient American civilization and the mysterious mound-builder culture to the Salem witch trials, the birth of Mormonism during a ritual of ceremonial magic by Joseph Smith, Jr., and Operations Paperclip and Bluebird. Though not a work of speculative history, this exposé is founded on primary source material and historical documents. Fascinating details are revealed, including the bizarre world of "wandering bishops" who appeared throughout the Kennedy assassinations; a CIA mind control program run amok in the United States and Canada; a famous American spiritual leader who had ties to Lee Harvey Oswald in the weeks and months leading up to the assassination of President Kennedy; and the "Manson secret."

My local University (the History department of which incidentally offers units on both the occult & the Nazi’s) library stocks 2 two books with the words Unholy Alliance in the title both of them concern dealings between Germany & the Soviet Union.

Amazingly neither Peter Levenda’s ‘Unholy Alliance: A History of the Nazi Involvement With the Occult’ nor his other masterpieces of rigorous scholarship:

Sinister Forces-The Manson Secret : A Grimoire of American Political Witchcraft
Sinister Forces-The Nine : A Grimoire of American Political Witchcraft
Sinister Forces-A Warm Gun : A Grimoire of American Political Witchcraft (Sinister Forces)

Are stocked by the University, maybe I should warn them of this terrible oversight.

LongVin wrote:Well in his bibilography for that chapter he lists numerous references to the New York Times and other authors.

As well as his total bibliography containing well over two hundred entries.

Well he must be a real historian and great authority on Hitler if he cites a fucking New York Newspaper, I’m pretty sure that I remember Ian Kershaw, the only other scholar who even approaches Levenda’s knowledge of Hitler, closing every lecture he gave by urging us to read the New York Times instead of historical Journals, Academic History books or original sources

Btw. LongVin just how much of your life did you waste reading that worthless tripe?

Post by **K. A. Pital** » 2006-02-27 05:19am

Sinister Forces-The Manson Secret : A Grimoire of American Political Witchcraft
Sinister Forces-The Nine : A Grimoire of American Political Witchcraft
Sinister Forces-A Warm Gun : A Grimoire of American Political Witchcraft (Sinister Forces)

Post by **Surlethe** » 2006-02-27 06:52am

Stas Bush wrote:
‘Hitler’s Table Talks’ they are of questionable reliability
More than that:
Nobeliefs.org wrote:Anti-religious views by themselves simply cannot be used as an argument against one's personal beliefs as a Christian, and gives one of the many reasons why Hitler's Table-Talk, even if valid, cannot serve as evidence against Hitler's Christianity but, ironically, actually supports his personal beliefs as a Christian.

Indeed. If someone saw selected quotes of what I say here, one might be led to believe I'm not Christian; however, they'd be both ignoring the context of the discussions and my own insistence in admitting my beliefs are irrational. The point is that quotes which supposedly support an anti-Christian belief, when taken in context and alongside quotes which do support Christianity, can often turn out to be not quite as anti-Christian as people think.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2006-02-27 10:00am

LongVin wrote:Stated in the book(pg. 80) backed up by footnotes to other sources:

Christians can be interested in the occult. Red Fucking Herring. Present evidence or shut up.

Then it goes on to state

Again. The occult doesn't rule out Christianity. This is a religion where a man comes back from the dead and can multiply bread by passing it around.

Should I take it, then, that you have absolutely no evidence, only this badly written book?

LongVin · Post by **LongVin** » 2006-02-27 11:34am

Master of Ossus wrote:
LongVin wrote:Stated in the book(pg. 80) backed up by footnotes to other sources:

That Hitler was fascinated by the occult is proven: The Berchtesgaden library, discovered in a mine after the war, contained many volumes on occultism. His small collection of books as a student contained works on mythology and a collection of Von Liebenels's racist occult magazine, Ostara...
Then it goes on to state

Friends of his from the early days recall long conversations on occult themes--everything from reincarnation to yoga to paganism and magic-- and his later biographers, such as Sir Allan Bullock, record Hitler's familiarity with occult topics in the days prior to the Second World War
Even if this is true, can a Christian not be interested in the Occult? Also, my personal book collection has dozens of texts on classical, Norse, Asian, Indian, and Native American mythology, as well as at least two translations of the Bible and three of the Koran, and numerous Christian texts. Yet I do not subscribe to any of these religions.

I am taking sections from the book primarily beginning and ends of the chapters since they are the easiest to find. Most of the meat is contained within the center of the chapters but I am not going to reread whole chapters looking for a single quote.

LongVin · Post by **LongVin** » 2006-02-27 11:35am

Shroom Man 777 wrote:That and no one can say that the Nazi's ethnic cleansing is anti-Christian. After all, Christianity was already doing all that racist shit centuries before Hitler (I mean, the Inquisition, the Crusades). All Hitler did was take it to its logical extreme.

And at least Hitler didn't have the Gestapo arrest scientists who advocated the heliocentric theory :p

And of course there were no Catholic Priests who were killed in the death camps /sarcasm

LongVin · Post by **LongVin** » 2006-02-27 11:44am

Plekhanov wrote:
LongVin wrote:It seriously depends on who is writing the material. There is material that points to Christianity but then there is also material thats points to neo pagan ideas.

The book "Unholy Alliance" by Peter Levenda talks alot about Nazisms pagan influences and its founding members.
I only just noticed that this was the book your were getting your ‘evidence’ from, this is most definitely not a reliable or scholarly source in fact if you cited this in an academic context they’d laugh in you face and then fail you. This Peter Levenda is a conspiracy nut a glance at a second book of his Amazon stock confirms this:

Sinister Forces-The Nine : A Grimoire of American Political Witchcraft
By Peter Levenda

Book Description
The roots of coincidence and conspiracy in American politics, crime, and culture are examined in this book that exposes new connections between religion, political conspiracy, and occultism. From ancient American civilization and the mysterious mound-builder culture to the Salem witch trials, the birth of Mormonism during a ritual of ceremonial magic by Joseph Smith, Jr., and Operations Paperclip and Bluebird. Though not a work of speculative history, this exposé is founded on primary source material and historical documents. Fascinating details are revealed, including the bizarre world of "wandering bishops" who appeared throughout the Kennedy assassinations; a CIA mind control program run amok in the United States and Canada; a famous American spiritual leader who had ties to Lee Harvey Oswald in the weeks and months leading up to the assassination of President Kennedy; and the "Manson secret."
My local University (the History department of which incidentally offers units on both the occult & the Nazi’s) library stocks 2 two books with the words Unholy Alliance in the title both of them concern dealings between Germany & the Soviet Union.

Amazingly neither Peter Levenda’s ‘Unholy Alliance: A History of the Nazi Involvement With the Occult’ nor his other masterpieces of rigorous scholarship:

Sinister Forces-The Manson Secret : A Grimoire of American Political Witchcraft
Sinister Forces-The Nine : A Grimoire of American Political Witchcraft
Sinister Forces-A Warm Gun : A Grimoire of American Political Witchcraft (Sinister Forces)

Are stocked by the University, maybe I should warn them of this terrible oversight.

LongVin wrote:Well in his bibilography for that chapter he lists numerous references to the New York Times and other authors.

As well as his total bibliography containing well over two hundred entries.
Well he must be a real historian and great authority on Hitler if he cites a fucking New York Newspaper, I’m pretty sure that I remember Ian Kershaw, the only other scholar who even approaches Levenda’s knowledge of Hitler, closing every lecture he gave by urging us to read the New York Times instead of historical Journals, Academic History books or original sources

Btw. LongVin just how much of your life did you waste reading that worthless tripe?

I'll admit the book is a little out there and he does write about conspiracies but in parts of his book he disagrees with them and show evidence disproving them. Then he other parts he agrees with certain theories.

I don't know anything about his other books since I haven't read them.

As for your claim about the New York Times numerous political writers cite the New York Times as an official source in books because of its high standard of quality and journalism.

LongVin · Post by **LongVin** » 2006-02-27 11:45am

SirNitram wrote:
LongVin wrote:Stated in the book(pg. 80) backed up by footnotes to other sources:
Christians can be interested in the occult. Red Fucking Herring. Present evidence or shut up.

Then it goes on to state
Again. The occult doesn't rule out Christianity. This is a religion where a man comes back from the dead and can multiply bread by passing it around.

Should I take it, then, that you have absolutely no evidence, only this badly written book?

Yet all Christian teachings since Medieval times have taught against the Occult and any interest in paganism or witchcraft.

Keevan_Colton · Post by **Keevan_Colton** » 2006-02-27 11:57am

LongVin wrote: Yet all Christian teachings since Medieval times have taught against the Occult and any interest in paganism or witchcraft.

except the bits they stole...duh...

"Occult stuff is bad except the Occult stuff we're saying!"

Post by **K. A. Pital** » 2006-02-27 11:58am

LongVin

And of course there were no Catholic Priests who were killed in the death camps /sarcasm

O RLY? And of course there were no nazis killed in death camps? Or no ordinary germans? What's the sarcasm about? What does this have to do with Hitler's CHRISTIAN BELIEFS?

Christians, you know, have quite a story of fighting their OWN kind.

Anyway, dude, just go read what Hitler himself said and his private writings, especially about the Bible. That effectively nails the question of his private beliefs.

As for being ruthless to other Christians, he didn't spare ruthlessness for anyone, you know. He wanted his own brand of Christianity in Germany, not somebody else's one. Like, you know, fundies do.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2006-02-27 12:12pm

LongVin wrote:Yet all Christian teachings since Medieval times have taught against the Occult and any interest in paganism or witchcraft.

That's such total bullshit it's laughable.

Funny, really. You can't beleive in witches without beleiving in the Occult. What a dumb peice of shit you are.

I think it's time to put on the Moderator hat and demand evidence be posted. In accordance with our forum policies.

D. R. 6 wrote:If you are asked for evidence to support a claim you've made, you should either produce this evidence or concede the point until such time as you can produce this evidence. People who consistently ignore requests for evidence to support their claims (particularly contentious claims) are not looked upon kindly here.

Post by **K. A. Pital** » 2006-02-27 01:22pm

That's such total bullshit it's laughable.

Yes, exactly.
You know how fundies (the "truuh" Christians) always point to the mainstream Christian teachings being involved in paganism and allowing pagan rituals, incorporating them, etc. Which seems to be a great evil to them, but not to mainstream denominations like Catholics, Othrodox and so on. The claim of "all Christian teachings denounce paganism since Middle Ages" is very-un-fucking-believable.

LongVin is just trolling here, that's all.

You can't beleive in witches without beleiving in the Occult.

Funnily, the Fundies who really HATE the Occult at the same time BELIEVE IN IT, because the Bible says there are witches who must be slain and all the yadda

Just watch Jack T. Chick. One of the strongest believers in the reality of the Occult witchcraft. A fundie, too.

Plekhanov · Post by **Plekhanov** » 2006-02-27 02:35pm

LongVin wrote:And of course there were no Catholic Priests who were killed in the death camps /sarcasm

How desperate of you a pitiful strawman & red herring in a single sentence.

The staunch catholic Franco killed more spaniards (the overwhelming majority of whom were catholic) than Hitler killed ethnic Germans are you going to argue this in some way means he wasn’t a Christian?

Plenty of Christians and a small number of priests were sent to the camps by the Nazis for a variety of reasons, though never simply for being a Christian, this pathetic red herring in proves or disproves what Hitler’s beliefs were.

LongVin wrote:I'll admit the book is a little out there and he does write about conspiracies but in parts of his book he disagrees with them and show evidence disproving them. Then he other parts he agrees with certain theories.

I don't know anything about his other books since I haven't read them.

The guy is clearly a tin foil hatter who makes a living writing about occult conspiracy theories and consequently somebody who sees occult conspiracies everywhere, you could hardly have picked a worse authority to appeal to, what’s next David Icke?

As for your claim about the New York Times numerous political writers cite the New York Times as an official source in books because of its high standard of quality and journalism.

I can understand political writers citing newspapers as it’s an influential paper which plays a part in the political process, alleged historians writing about the supposed influence of the occult upon Hitler have rather less reason to do so.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2006-02-27 02:39pm

LongVin is obviously too stupid to understand that you can cite references for their facts, but not their opinions. And that's leaving aside the laughable credibility of the particular reference he chose.

Post by **Surlethe** » 2006-02-27 02:42pm

LongVin wrote:Yet all Christian teachings since Medieval times have taught against the Occult and any interest in paganism or witchcraft.

The Catholic Church currently teaches against contraception; all Catholics, therefore, do not use contraception. Do you see the problem with your logic yet?

LongVin · Post by **LongVin** » 2006-02-27 05:01pm

SirNitram wrote:
LongVin wrote:Yet all Christian teachings since Medieval times have taught against the Occult and any interest in paganism or witchcraft.
That's such total bullshit it's laughable. Funny, really. You can't beleive in witches without beleiving in the Occult. What a dumb peice of shit you are.

I think it's time to put on the Moderator hat and demand evidence be posted. In accordance with our forum policies.

D. R. 6 wrote:If you are asked for evidence to support a claim you've made, you should either produce this evidence or concede the point until such time as you can produce this evidence. People who consistently ignore requests for evidence to support their claims (particularly contentious claims) are not looked upon kindly here.

Ok I presented the beginning of chapters and the end of chapters which offer the direction the chapter is heading or a summary of the chapter. I am not going to reread the entire thing to find one quote when I can find a summary.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2006-02-27 05:03pm

LongVin wrote:Ok I presented the beginning of chapters and the end of chapters which offer the direction the chapter is heading or a summary of the chapter. I am not going to reread the entire thing to find one quote when I can find a summary.

Except no one's asked for either the summary or the beginning of the chapter. I suggest you take one of two courses of action.

1) If you think you're being a clever little troll, stop playing dumb before you get banned.

2) If you're honestly so fucking stupid as to think these lines from a book are evidence, stop posting and go educate yourself before you get banned.

Because seriously, this is just ridiculous.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2006-02-27 05:04pm

Surlethe wrote:The Catholic Church currently teaches against contraception; all Catholics, therefore, do not use contraception. Do you see the problem with your logic yet?

He's yet another christian apologist using the "No True Scotsman" fallacy. You can't expect someone like this to critically examine his own argument.

LongVin · Post by **LongVin** » 2006-02-27 05:08pm

Another quick reference before I head out for the day:

http://store.aetv.com/html/product/inde ... &subcatid=

Thats a link to a very interesting documentary that was on the History Channel a bunch of times about Hitler's Occult beliefs.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2006-02-27 05:10pm

LongVin wrote:Another quick reference before I head out for the day:

http://store.aetv.com/html/product/inde ... &subcatid=

Thats a link to a very interesting documentary that was on the History Channel a bunch of times about Hitler's Occult beliefs.

1) Dress your fucking links.

2) Show evidence to your claims.

I wonder if that graphic of the demand to support claims via evidence and logic, written in crayon is still around. It might be necessary here.

LongVin · Post by **LongVin** » 2006-02-27 05:14pm

Well next time they show that documentary I'll make sure to make a post to tell everyone to watch it.