What a retard. What word in our demands is too complex for you, kid?LongVin wrote:Well next time they show that documentary I'll make sure to make a post to tell everyone to watch it.
Hitler: Christian or Pagan?
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I can hardly post evidence to something I do not currently have in my possession and even if I did have the DvD I wouldn't have a written transcript that I can post online.SirNitram wrote:What a retard. What word in our demands is too complex for you, kid?LongVin wrote:Well next time they show that documentary I'll make sure to make a post to tell everyone to watch it.
But if you want when I have the time I'll post every bibliographical reference in the book on the forum to cite evidence that everything was researched.
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Alright, nublet, here's the rub:LongVin wrote:I am taking sections from the book primarily beginning and ends of the chapters since they are the easiest to find. Most of the meat is contained within the center of the chapters but I am not going to reread whole chapters looking for a single quote.
Hitler's public discourse is so overwhelmingly Christian that not even the most ardent of apologists can claim that it was anything other than Christian.
In order to discount these public discourses, apologists like the ones you've been citing have frequently tried to differentiate between Hitler's private and his public beliefs, but have in general failed to demonstrate that such a difference existed.
When someone asks you to present evidence, they do not mean a summarized form of someone else's claims. They want the original facts used to create a coherent hypothesis (ie. they wish to be able to follow the logic their opponent is using). Showing that Hitler's private retreat had a Christian cross, and that his paintings before he had any political aspirations were Christian in nature is evidence. For your camp, something written in a diary like, "I really don't believe any of this stupid Christian tripe--I'm just using it to further my political goals" would be good. But you can't actually give any such evidence because none of what you need exists. Instead, you must state conclusions as if they were facts, and "rebut" evidence of Hitler's Christianity by stating that it was all public, even when it clearly wasn't (ie. his private retreat had a cross; his private paintings; his writings in Mein Kampf).
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It's so amusing when they admit they were breaking the rules of the forum.LongVin wrote:I can hardly post evidence to something I do not currently have in my possession and even if I did have the DvD I wouldn't have a written transcript that I can post online.
No one gives a shit about the biblography, you dumb-shit apologist. We want to know what actions demonstrate the claim you are making. Citing ten million books wouldn't do that.But if you want when I have the time I'll post every bibliographical reference in the book on the forum to cite evidence that everything was researched.
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Are you seriously too stupid to understand that the bibliography is irrelevant until such a time as you actually post the facts that you are trying to establish? No one cares about how many books you can cite in a text--we care about why a text is citing those sources. What facts do those sources provide that allows us to generate a coherent hypothesis? Do they show that Hitler wrote extensively, in private, about his disbelief in Christianity? Do they show that Hitler was a completely different person in private, with totally different beliefs, than the public front he put on? What facts do these alleged references establish, and how do these facts allow us to move from "Hitler was publically, clearly a Christian" to "Although Hitler practiced Christianity in public, he was privately not a Christian." An opinion is not a fact, and a citation is not a fact. A fact is something like, "Even in his private retreat, Hitler had a cross at which to pray," or "Even before he harbored political aspirations, Hitler's artwork reveals an ideology steeped in Christian doctrine."LongVin wrote:But if you want when I have the time I'll post every bibliographical reference in the book on the forum to cite evidence that everything was researched.
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The claim that Mein Kampf was a political tool for manipulating people and not necessarily reflecting Hitler beliefs seems very odd to me. He wrote Mein Kampf while in prison after he was arrested in 1923 for leading 2000 National Socialist Brownshirts to stage a coup in Bavaria and failed. He was supposed to be in prison for five years, but was released after only nine months.
At that point, he had very little political power at all to defend. In fact, the NAZI party wouldn't even become significant in German politics for another six decades. He wasn't even a German citizen at the time. Frankly, Hitler had nothing but his beliefs.
He was dirt poor, in shitty health (I don't think his vision ever quite recovered from being partially exposed to poison gas), and the leader of a political party that had very little sway in politics. With the way things were going in Germany in the 20s, he could have easily died in prison before being released or if things had gone slightly different he'd go back to sleeping on park benchs and leeching off the dole in Austria. Why would he try buttering up anyone at that point?
At that point, he had very little political power at all to defend. In fact, the NAZI party wouldn't even become significant in German politics for another six decades. He wasn't even a German citizen at the time. Frankly, Hitler had nothing but his beliefs.
He was dirt poor, in shitty health (I don't think his vision ever quite recovered from being partially exposed to poison gas), and the leader of a political party that had very little sway in politics. With the way things were going in Germany in the 20s, he could have easily died in prison before being released or if things had gone slightly different he'd go back to sleeping on park benchs and leeching off the dole in Austria. Why would he try buttering up anyone at that point?
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The Nazi party rose to prominence in the 1980's?Gil Hamilton wrote:He wrote Mein Kampf while in prison after he was arrested in 1923 for leading 2000 National Socialist Brownshirts to stage a coup in Bavaria and failed.
In fact, the NAZI party wouldn't even become significant in German politics for another six decades. He wasn't even a German citizen at the time. Frankly, Hitler had nothing but his beliefs.
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Gregory Paul had a series of articles in Free Inquiry about Hitler being a Christian. The alleged "attacks" on Christianity almost all fell into three categories:
1) those Christians who opposed him
2) efforts to appeal to Catholics in Austria and Bavaria on one hand, and Protestants elsewhere in the Reich on the other
3) misquotes, misunderstanding actual quotes, and made up quotes with no evidence to back them up
Hitler's only real beef with Christianity was that different factions divided the Reich. He wanted a national church with the head of state as head of the church: Hitler. He also wanted to make sure church taxes and tithes, which the German government collected and sent to Rome, stayed in Germany. By LongVin's logic, none of the English monarchs or heads of state from Henry VIII to the present was a Christian.
1) those Christians who opposed him
2) efforts to appeal to Catholics in Austria and Bavaria on one hand, and Protestants elsewhere in the Reich on the other
3) misquotes, misunderstanding actual quotes, and made up quotes with no evidence to back them up
Hitler's only real beef with Christianity was that different factions divided the Reich. He wanted a national church with the head of state as head of the church: Hitler. He also wanted to make sure church taxes and tithes, which the German government collected and sent to Rome, stayed in Germany. By LongVin's logic, none of the English monarchs or heads of state from Henry VIII to the present was a Christian.
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Teufel! Years, six years.SirNitram wrote:The Nazi party rose to prominence in the 1980's?
"Show me an angel and I will paint you one." - Gustav Courbet
"Quetzalcoatl, plumed serpent of the Aztecs... you are a pussy." - Stephen Colbert
"Really, I'm jealous of how much smarter than me he is. I'm not an expert on anything and he's an expert on things he knows nothing about." - Me, concerning a bullshitter
"Quetzalcoatl, plumed serpent of the Aztecs... you are a pussy." - Stephen Colbert
"Really, I'm jealous of how much smarter than me he is. I'm not an expert on anything and he's an expert on things he knows nothing about." - Me, concerning a bullshitter
His shitty health was one of the reasons he was so hell bent on starting a second war and why he was always ordering this attack or that invasion long before the armed forces were ready. There was a documentary on Discovery where doctors went through his medical records and watched contemporary films of Hitler. Their conclusion? He was dying of Parkinson's and knew it by late 1937/ early 1938 at the latest. He wanted the war to start and get fully underway because he was worried he wouldn't live long enough to see it.Gil Hamilton wrote:He was dirt poor, in shitty health (I don't think his vision ever quite recovered from being partially exposed to poison gas), and the leader of a political party that had very little sway in politics. With the way things were going in Germany in the 20s, he could have easily died in prison before being released or if things had gone slightly different he'd go back to sleeping on park benchs and leeching off the dole in Austria. Why would he try buttering up anyone at that point?
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If you don't have evidence, then why are you appealing to it?LongVin wrote:I can hardly post evidence to something I do not currently have in my possession and even if I did have the DvD I wouldn't have a written transcript that I can post online.
A Government founded upon justice, and recognizing the equal rights of all men; claiming higher authority for existence, or sanction for its laws, that nature, reason, and the regularly ascertained will of the people; steadily refusing to put its sword and purse in the service of any religious creed or family is a standing offense to most of the Governments of the world, and to some narrow and bigoted people among ourselves.
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Who used such an example and where?CarsonPalmer wrote:Hitler was a Catholic, definitely, and Catholics can be bad too, but using Martin Luther as an example of Catholic Anti-Semitism is not a good idea, considering he was the first to break from the Catholic Church. Maybe Spain would be a better example.
Stas Bush did, on the top of the thread's third page.wolveraptor wrote:Who used such an example and where?CarsonPalmer wrote:Hitler was a Catholic, definitely, and Catholics can be bad too, but using Martin Luther as an example of Catholic Anti-Semitism is not a good idea, considering he was the first to break from the Catholic Church. Maybe Spain would be a better example.
A Government founded upon justice, and recognizing the equal rights of all men; claiming higher authority for existence, or sanction for its laws, that nature, reason, and the regularly ascertained will of the people; steadily refusing to put its sword and purse in the service of any religious creed or family is a standing offense to most of the Governments of the world, and to some narrow and bigoted people among ourselves.
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He still mentions that Luther was a Protestant. That he was one doesn't change the fact that Hitler stole ideas from him. Hitler's Christianity wasn't pure Catholicism - he wanted the Pope to be himself, and he must've disagreed with some finer details of doctrine.
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I think it's odd that only Catholics try to deny that Hitler was catholic. Protestants claim Hitler was Catholic, but then Catholics are not christian. Ergo, I shall assume that Hitler was Catholic, and Catholicism is christian, because everyone seems to only be denying things when it might make them look bad.
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>>Quaff painkillers
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It's even worse, since they like to pin him on pegans. As if the pegans are really around such as the mere mention of 'pegan' implies large bands of Celts still living close to gods people or some such nonsense.defanatic wrote:I think it's odd that only Catholics try to deny that Hitler was catholic. Protestants claim Hitler was Catholic, but then Catholics are not christian. Ergo, I shall assume that Hitler was Catholic, and Catholicism is christian, because everyone seems to only be denying things when it might make them look bad.
They, christians, gotta believe their little belief system is the best, so any one that brings that image down and they bust out the 'no true scotsman' bullshit and try to pin it on some other construct they percieve as 'the enemy'.
I'm shocked they haven't tried to pin the evil deeds of Hitler on the Muslims yet. It's as ridiculous as trying to force it to the 'pegans'.
They say, "the tree of liberty must be watered with the blood of tyrants and patriots." I suppose it never occurred to them that they are the tyrants, not the patriots. Those weapons are not being used to fight some kind of tyranny; they are bringing them to an event where people are getting together to talk. -Mike Wong
But as far as board culture in general, I do think that young male overaggression is a contributing factor to the general atmosphere of hostility. It's not SOS and the Mess throwing hand grenades all over the forum- Red
But as far as board culture in general, I do think that young male overaggression is a contributing factor to the general atmosphere of hostility. It's not SOS and the Mess throwing hand grenades all over the forum- Red
Remember, to Joe Q. Christian, the world is divided into Christians and Pagans. It doesn't matter to him whether the Pagans are different or the same; they're still Pagan. It's still misuse of the term; however, when a conservative Christian says "Pagan", he really means "Not Christian", not "a follower of a pantheistic tribal religion".
A Government founded upon justice, and recognizing the equal rights of all men; claiming higher authority for existence, or sanction for its laws, that nature, reason, and the regularly ascertained will of the people; steadily refusing to put its sword and purse in the service of any religious creed or family is a standing offense to most of the Governments of the world, and to some narrow and bigoted people among ourselves.
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WTF? Luther was a Protestant. Hitler sought to unite the Protestant Churches in Germany into a single church, and Mueller was made it's bishop, IIRC.Hitler was a Catholic, definitely, and Catholics can be bad too, but using Martin Luther as an example of Catholic Anti-Semitism is not a good idea, considering he was the first to break from the Catholic Church. Maybe Spain would be a better example.
Hitler wasn't like, entirely Catholic.
His (and the Nazi Party's) brand was Positive Christianity and all-Reich Church unification.
So that's not "Catholics can doo bad thing too", it's in the "Christian theologists in general are sometimes real assholes" park.
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I know and it irritates the shit out of me. Though, I do like the look on their faces when you run down the list off all the 'pagan' shit they stole from the evil do-ers for their own religion.Surlethe wrote:Remember, to Joe Q. Christian, the world is divided into Christians and Pagans. It doesn't matter to him whether the Pagans are different or the same; they're still Pagan. It's still misuse of the term; however, when a conservative Christian says "Pagan", he really means "Not Christian", not "a follower of a pantheistic tribal religion".
They say, "the tree of liberty must be watered with the blood of tyrants and patriots." I suppose it never occurred to them that they are the tyrants, not the patriots. Those weapons are not being used to fight some kind of tyranny; they are bringing them to an event where people are getting together to talk. -Mike Wong
But as far as board culture in general, I do think that young male overaggression is a contributing factor to the general atmosphere of hostility. It's not SOS and the Mess throwing hand grenades all over the forum- Red
But as far as board culture in general, I do think that young male overaggression is a contributing factor to the general atmosphere of hostility. It's not SOS and the Mess throwing hand grenades all over the forum- Red
I was talking once with a family friend; he started to try to talk me into going on a mission trip in the future; I, of course, noted that was contingent upon my remaining Christian, and he looked at me for a second like I was mad, and said, "Well, you could become pagan". I did a double-take before I remembered that was modus operandi for his social circle.Knife wrote:I know and it irritates the shit out of me. Though, I do like the look on their faces when you run down the list off all the 'pagan' shit they stole from the evil do-ers for their own religion.
A Government founded upon justice, and recognizing the equal rights of all men; claiming higher authority for existence, or sanction for its laws, that nature, reason, and the regularly ascertained will of the people; steadily refusing to put its sword and purse in the service of any religious creed or family is a standing offense to most of the Governments of the world, and to some narrow and bigoted people among ourselves.
F. Douglass
It's the presumption. You're an American/English/European. You must be a christian. A part of the tribe, basically.Surlethe wrote:I was talking once with a family friend; he started to try to talk me into going on a mission trip in the future; I, of course, noted that was contingent upon my remaining Christian, and he looked at me for a second like I was mad, and said, "Well, you could become pagan". I did a double-take before I remembered that was modus operandi for his social circle.Knife wrote:I know and it irritates the shit out of me. Though, I do like the look on their faces when you run down the list off all the 'pagan' shit they stole from the evil do-ers for their own religion.
They say, "the tree of liberty must be watered with the blood of tyrants and patriots." I suppose it never occurred to them that they are the tyrants, not the patriots. Those weapons are not being used to fight some kind of tyranny; they are bringing them to an event where people are getting together to talk. -Mike Wong
But as far as board culture in general, I do think that young male overaggression is a contributing factor to the general atmosphere of hostility. It's not SOS and the Mess throwing hand grenades all over the forum- Red
But as far as board culture in general, I do think that young male overaggression is a contributing factor to the general atmosphere of hostility. It's not SOS and the Mess throwing hand grenades all over the forum- Red
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I'm sure no one looks at a bunch of filthy Jews or Muslims and says, "Hey you pagans!"And yes, I am, in fact kidding. What a shocker. It's a term reserved exclusively for non-Abrahamic religions, which are overbearingly pantheistic.
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Sorry, that's polytheistic, not pantheistic.
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