Hitler: Christian or Pagan?

Elfdart · Post by **Elfdart** » 2006-02-27 11:47pm

wolveraptor wrote:He still mentions that Luther was a Protestant. That he was one doesn't change the fact that Hitler stole ideas from him. Hitler's Christianity wasn't pure Catholicism - he wanted the Pope to be himself, and he must've disagreed with some finer details of doctrine.

Funny, I thought Luther considered himself a Catholic who was out to reform the Church, not start a new one. Henry VIII considered himself a Catholic even after appointing himself head of the Church of England.

Kitsune · Post by **Kitsune** » 2006-02-28 12:29am

Elfdart wrote:Funny, I thought Luther considered himself a Catholic who was out to reform the Church, not start a new one. Henry VIII considered himself a Catholic even after appointing himself head of the Church of England.

Just wanted to note the Luther was an anti-semite from everything I have read.

DPDarkPrimus · Post by **DPDarkPrimus** » 2006-02-28 02:55am

Kitsune wrote:
Elfdart wrote:Funny, I thought Luther considered himself a Catholic who was out to reform the Church, not start a new one. Henry VIII considered himself a Catholic even after appointing himself head of the Church of England.
Just wanted to note the Luther was an anti-semite from everything I have read.

A rabid anti-Semite. I certainly wouldn't put it past Hitler to have quoted Luther at some point in his career.

Post by **K. A. Pital** » 2006-02-28 02:58am

I certainly wouldn't put it past Hitler to have quoted Luther at some point in his career.

Quoted?

What are you talking about, he admired Luther to such extent that he wrote about it, and executed Luther's recommendations against the Jews in practice. That's a lot fucking worse than "quoting". That's called "genocide".

DPDarkPrimus · Post by **DPDarkPrimus** » 2006-02-28 03:11am

Stas Bush wrote:
I certainly wouldn't put it past Hitler to have quoted Luther at some point in his career.
Quoted? What are you talking about, he admired Luther to such extent that he wrote about it, and executed Luther's recommendations against the Jews in practice. That's a lot fucking worse than "quoting". That's called "genocide".

Just because Hitler had the Jews slaughtered wholesale doesn't mean he got the idea from Luther.

I would like to find out if he ever quoted Luther, though.

Post by **K. A. Pital** » 2006-02-28 03:35am

Just because Hitler had the Jews slaughtered wholesale doesn't mean he got the idea from Luther.

How about the "Kristallnacht" being done by the Nazis on Luther's birthday?

Elfdart · Post by **Elfdart** » 2006-02-28 05:38am

Kitsune wrote:
Elfdart wrote:Funny, I thought Luther considered himself a Catholic who was out to reform the Church, not start a new one. Henry VIII considered himself a Catholic even after appointing himself head of the Church of England.
Just wanted to note the Luther was an anti-semite from everything I have read.

It would be more of a shock if a priest back then wasn't an Jew-hater.

During WW2 the British put out a booklet Martin Luther: Hitler's Spiritual Ancestor. They withdrew it after the war because telling the truth about religion is only acceptabe during wartime.

Post by **K. A. Pital** » 2006-02-28 05:48am

During WW2 the British put out a booklet Martin Luther: Hitler's Spiritual Ancestor.

Wow. Do any scans or copies of the thing exist? I want that.

mr friendly guy · Post by **mr friendly guy** » 2006-02-28 06:14am

Stas Bush wrote:
During WW2 the British put out a booklet Martin Luther: Hitler's Spiritual Ancestor.
Wow. Do any scans or copies of the thing exist? I want that.

Apparently amazon.com has it reprinted.

link

Post by **Coyote** » 2006-02-28 11:28am

DPDarkPrimus wrote:Just because Hitler had the Jews slaughtered wholesale doesn't mean he got the idea from Luther.

Martin Luther was the first to use the term "concentration camp" in reference to the Jews. The idea was that the Jews are such a "poison of society" that they should be "concentrated in camps" away from the populace so that their "filth and taint" cannot spread. I have a report hiding away somewhere from a book, I believe it was dealing with the relationship between Hitler and the Church, but one chapter went into comparisons of Hitler's ideas and Martin Luther's, and there is a great deal of obvious lineage through the years.

It's not necessarily that Hitler read Luther's playbook; rather, Luther's rabid anti-Semitism had become ingrained as part of the culture in the region and was still very much alive when Hitler came around centuries later. When Hitler got his early start in the world of anti-Semitism, he read trashy periodicals like "The Cross and the Rose" which frequently had stories and comics in them depicting smelly old hook-nosed Jewish loansharks squeezing money from pretty young blond-haird, blue eyed Aryan women and finally bedding them for their payments. Later, as Hitler rose to prominence in the anti-Jewish circles in Vienna, some from his club criticized him for not being harsh enough on the Jews.

Martin Luther at one point said that when Judas Iscariot hanged himself, his "guts burst... and the Jews came with their silver bowls and caught the filth, offal and excrement that dripped from his body, and lapped it up, taiting their blood forever..." or something like that. Luther actually made Hitler look like a well-adjusted person with a handful of 'issues'.

Darth Servo · Post by **Darth Servo** » 2006-02-28 12:20pm

I'm suddenly having flash backs to a debate I had on Startrek.com with a retard who insisted that Hitler couldn't be a Catholic because the 'tard's Preist cousin did time in a concentration camp.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2006-02-28 12:27pm

Darth Servo wrote:I'm suddenly having flash backs to a debate I had on Startrek.com with a retard who insisted that Hitler couldn't be a Catholic because the 'tard's Preist cousin did time in a concentration camp.

Did you know that President Bush has had American citizens imprisoned and interrogated without due process? Clearly, George W. Bush must not be an American.

Rye · Post by **Rye** » 2006-02-28 04:26pm

Hitler said a few unchristian and uncatholic things after his election to chancellor, such as, "The National Socialist State professes its allegiance to Positive Christianity" [1934] — Positive Christianity being nonsectarian — and at other times would say, "National Socialism and Christianity cannot exist together" [1941]. Given that, it's hardly unreasonable to suppose he was using religion as a tool, and, IIRC, he was going to eradicate churches further down the line in accordance with his totalitarian views.

As for Hitler's table talk, well, it's one thing to say bits of it were embellished, it's another to say it's entirely fabricated, even if it's just bits you don't like due to not complying with the conclusion you want.

Though Hitler joined the Thule society for a while, after he got in power, he oppressed them also, and, IIRC left the nazis trying to create a more nationalistic neopagan faith to their own devices, rather than weigh in significantly on either a pro or con stance.

Ultimately, then I think it was his faith and reverence of nationalism that drove the cogs of evil, and certainly christianity is not blameless when it came to choosing specific groups of people as scapegoats/subhumans. Nor could nazi germany have perpetrated such evil without massive christian support from within germany. If he was christian, I doubt it had much of an impact on his life or actions.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2006-02-28 04:34pm

Can anyone look at his earlier writings and seriously conclude that he thought the Christian God was a false superstition? It seems to me that people are using "anti-Christian" the same way they use the term "anti-American".

As for "Table Talk", once a source is shown to be not credible, it doesn't have to be 100% false to be rendered useless as the evidence basis of an entire argument.

Kitsune · Post by **Kitsune** » 2006-02-28 07:03pm

One item, to throw some more chum in the water, is that Neo-Nazis appear to use Christianity to support themselves as well.

DPDarkPrimus · Post by **DPDarkPrimus** » 2006-02-28 09:20pm

Coyote wrote:
DPDarkPrimus wrote:Just because Hitler had the Jews slaughtered wholesale doesn't mean he got the idea from Luther.
Martin Luther was the first to use the term "concentration camp" in reference to the Jews. The idea was that the Jews are such a "poison of society" that they should be "concentrated in camps" away from the populace so that their "filth and taint" cannot spread. I have a report hiding away somewhere from a book, I believe it was dealing with the relationship between Hitler and the Church, but one chapter went into comparisons of Hitler's ideas and Martin Luther's, and there is a great deal of obvious lineage through the years.

It's not necessarily that Hitler read Luther's playbook; rather, Luther's rabid anti-Semitism had become ingrained as part of the culture in the region and was still very much alive when Hitler came around centuries later. When Hitler got his early start in the world of anti-Semitism, he read trashy periodicals like "The Cross and the Rose" which frequently had stories and comics in them depicting smelly old hook-nosed Jewish loansharks squeezing money from pretty young blond-haird, blue eyed Aryan women and finally bedding them for their payments. Later, as Hitler rose to prominence in the anti-Jewish circles in Vienna, some from his club criticized him for not being harsh enough on the Jews.

Martin Luther at one point said that when Judas Iscariot hanged himself, his "guts burst... and the Jews came with their silver bowls and caught the filth, offal and excrement that dripped from his body, and lapped it up, taiting their blood forever..." or something like that. Luther actually made Hitler look like a well-adjusted person with a handful of 'issues'.

Interesting.

Rye · Post by **Rye** » 2006-03-01 07:19am

Kitsune wrote:One item, to throw some more chum in the water, is that Neo-Nazis appear to use Christianity to support themselves as well.

And they use cosmotheism and asatru (germanic, norse) beliefs too, which proves precisely dick.

Kitsune · Post by **Kitsune** » 2006-03-01 10:22am

Rye wrote:And they use cosmotheism and asatru (germanic, norse) beliefs too, which proves precisely dick.

Honestly, I have only heard about their Christian ties.
Got any good sources?

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2006-03-01 10:53am

Rye wrote:
Kitsune wrote:One item, to throw some more chum in the water, is that Neo-Nazis appear to use Christianity to support themselves as well.
And they use cosmotheism and asatru (germanic, norse) beliefs too, which proves precisely dick.

Wrong. It proves that those belief systems, much like Christianity, are not necessarily incompatible with Nazi beliefs. This is important because Christians tend to rather stridently claim the opposite: that it is impossible to reconcile Christian beliefs with Nazism. In fact, that is one of the most common "proofs" that Hitler could not have been Christian.

Darth Raptor · Post by **Darth Raptor** » 2006-03-01 11:33am

Superman wrote:<snip>

While I understand, sympathize and completely agree with your frustration, it's counter-productive. At the risk of sounding like an "Appeal to Civility" whiner, we can't afford to remove the colorful candy shell.

If there's one thing my constant confrontations with my family have taught me, it's that these shock-and-awe tactics don't work. You'll never turn the die-hard fanatics, but not all of them are a lost cause. Some Christians are otherwise decent people who just aren't all that smart. Religion flourishes in the shadow of true ignorance, even more so than willfull ignorance. A lot of them simply haven't been exposed to free thought before. If you come at them in an overtly hostile or derrogatory fashion they'll retreat into their shell and anything you say will be virtually ignored in a giant "Style over Substance" fallacy. But, if you engage them in level conversation, and craft your attacks with respect and patience, in a manner that leaves your opponent's dignity intact, you may just liberalize them. Not deconvert, but liberalize. While it would be great if Christianity vanished alltogether, I would be just as happy if it were dilluted by secularism to the point where we didn't have to worry about it.

Of course, not all Christians can be reached this way. The ones that simply refuse to think, give it to them with both barrells. Ideologically castrate them and have some fun in the process. I'm talking about the Christians you care about, if there are any.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2006-03-01 11:48am

To be honest, I don't even bother raising the subject with Christians in polite conversation at all. They leave me alone, I'll leave them alone. The only time I raise the subject in face-to-face communication is when they try to convert me. And when that happens, I'll usually try to reason with them but if they start getting strident (which usually happens when they realize that I think the Bible is nothing more than a fairy tale), then as far as I'm concerned, the gloves come off. I don't start those kinds of confrontations, but I sure as hell won't turn the other cheek.

Darth Raptor · Post by **Darth Raptor** » 2006-03-01 05:44pm

I'm still dependent on my parents, who are fundamentalist Christians of the Pentacostal persuasion. While I live in the dorms, I stay at home on the weekends.

A few years ago when I came out as an atheist few (if any) of our confrontations were civil. Like you said, once they realized that I had gone from having "some doubts" to considering their entire belief system to be nothing more than a fairy tale, they blew their top. They got used to it, though. Same thing happened when I told them I was bisexual. They don't approve, but they realize there isn't anything they can do about it and they tolerate it, for the most part.

The problem is, religion is so ingrained into every facet of their life it conflicts with mine on a regular basis. I have to defend my choices in music, literature, games, political ideals- even the people I'm attracted to. I'm not advocating turning the other cheek, but when your objective is to make your relationships with family and friends happier, and not just winning the argument, you need to adopt a softer approach. "Good manners" are some of the most important things to Christians. The fewer excuses you give them to disregard your ideas, the better.

Rye · Post by **Rye** » 2006-03-01 06:41pm

Kitsune wrote:
Rye wrote:And they use cosmotheism and asatru (germanic, norse) beliefs too, which proves precisely dick.
Honestly, I have only heard about their Christian ties.
Got any good sources?

Obviously I'm going to break the links to and from this next one, but straight from the horse's mouth, you can guess the content of the "suggested reading":

cosmotheism.net/reading.shtml

"Some Additional educational and Suggested readings:"

European American Issues Forum

The Largest White Nationalist Library in the World

Stormfront Public Forums

Educational Resources informing about the real dangers
of Jewish Supremacism to our own People's continued
Survival and Advancement on this Earth:

David Duke's Crusade against Jewish Supremacism

The Jewish Tribal Review

Jew Watch

Audio Archive

"Anti-Semitism" is a natural, inevitable and quite
Human response to both past and to current "Jewish
Supremacism"

Many Censored Historical Facts

The details of Cosmotheism, a White racialist religion or
Philosophy of "Creativity": Read ALL the Holy Books!

--As for asatru white supremacists, odinism has enjoyed a bit of a revival both in and out of racist ideologies in recent times. Under hitler, it was oppressed, however.

Darth Wong wrote:Wrong. It proves that those belief systems, much like Christianity, are not necessarily incompatible with Nazi beliefs. This is important because Christians tend to rather stridently claim the opposite: that it is impossible to reconcile Christian beliefs with Nazism. In fact, that is one of the most common "proofs" that Hitler could not have been Christian.

True, but I meant it proved jack shit in regards to Hitler's religion. The religious nuttery of modern day neonazis doesn't really imply anything of hitler's religious beliefs.

Patrick Degan · Post by **Patrick Degan** » 2006-03-02 07:27pm

LongVin wrote:
SirNitram wrote:
LongVin wrote:I posted the entire quote from a section of the book in which in summary it said that the whole personification of Nazi Principles as seen in the SS were anti Christian.

The entire theme of the book is pointing out the occult and pagan nature of Nazism and I posted a brief summary presented in one of the chapters that highlights the anti Christian nature of Nazi Party Members.
And where would be that evidence I asked for, LongVin?
I posted quotes directly from the book in which the author states that the SS was a Pagan institution and respresentative of Nazism which was asummary paragraph of an entire chapter devoted to the topic. That is the evidence. A word by word quote from the book. If thats not enough for you heres what you can do you can go to the library and take out the book and read it cover to cover. Because I am not typing up entire chapters of the book.

Translated from the German: "God With Us".

Eat it.