Spaarti cloning cylinders vs clone wars cloners

[lance]

In the thrawn trillogy it is stated that the cloning could be done at a rate of one per year. However in the clone wars it took IIRC about ten years for a clone to be made. Are these 2 cloning methods differant, or did the cloning methods improve as the war progressed?

[Elheru Aran]

The methods are different, fairly obviously. Thrawn used ysalamiri to cut down on the growth time.

However, he was apparently also growing them to full adult size in the vats; the Kaminoans, on the other hand, grew them to child-size, and then decanted them. The rest of the ten years were growth, education and military training.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Clones were doubtlessly grown faster during the Clone Wars than just the initial batch, Kaminoan or otherwise.

[Spetulhu]

The methods are different, fairly obviously. Thrawn used ysalamiri to cut down on the growth time.

However, he was apparently also growing them to full adult size in the vats; the Kaminoans, on the other hand, grew them to child-size, and then decanted them. The rest of the ten years were growth, education and military training.

Spaarti cylinders seem to include systems for implanting memory and skills in the bodies, something the first Kaminoan batch had to learn on their own.
Thrawn said five years was the minimum if you wanted the Spaarti clones to stay mentally stable. With ysalamiri to insulate them from the Force he could grow them to full size in less than a year.

[Noble Ire]

In the thrawn trillogy it is stated that the cloning could be done at a rate of one per year. However in the clone wars it took IIRC about ten years for a clone to be made. Are these 2 cloning methods differant, or did the cloning methods improve as the war progressed?

They seem to be based on different principles. Kaminoan cloning, though it sped up as they were forced to use it more and more, became more effeicent, but it still took years for a mature soldier to be produced (they simply generate the newborn and modify its genetic structure to make it grow more quickly, along with other improvements). Spaarti cylinders on the other hand, taking a few weeks or months from genetic insertion, produce fully-grown soldiers, flash educated rather than trained over a lifetime. While vastly more effecient, this method produces clones of lower skill and longevity, as even with the presence of a Ysalamiri, they tend to go insane after several years.

[phongn]

Spaarti cylinders seem to include systems for implanting memory and skills in the bodies, something the first Kaminoan batch had to learn on their own.
Thrawn said five years was the minimum if you wanted the Spaarti clones to stay mentally stable. With ysalamiri to insulate them from the Force he could grow them to full size in less than a year.

IIRC, it was Pellaeon who noted the problems with the Spaarti cylinders - one year for stability, but with the ysalamiri they were attaining clone times as short as a month.

[Lazarus]

I thought that the Spaarti method was superior in almost every way except that the clones went crazy after a while, eg, Joruus C'Boath. By blocking the force from the tanks using Ysalymiri, wasn't this effect entirely negated?
I'm sure it says in the books that the time taken for cloning i this fashion is 3 days. It obviously can't be a year, because the time between Waylands discovery in HttE and the deployment of clones aboard the Katana is nowhere near a year. I think the figure is in dialogue where someone, possibly Karrde but I;m not sure, says to someone else that by cloning in this way, the clones can be produced in 3 days. The other person is suitably shocked.

[Cos Dashit]

I thought that the Spaarti method was superior in almost every way except that the clones went crazy after a while, eg, Joruus C'Boath.

Were the Spaarti Clones less skilled? I had thought the training over about 10 years was more effective than the flash training.

[NRS Guardian]

Were the Spaarti Clones less skilled? I had thought the training over about 10 years was more effective than the flash training.

Think about it, if training over 10 years is more effective than flash training that's going to make the Spaarti clones less skilled, due to their inferior training.

[Adam Reynolds]

As for growth time, after the first batch the time would decrease, identical to an assembly line.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Spaarti clones are just Republic improvements on Kaminoan hardware. I'd imagine similar concepts and other enhancements from the baseline in AOTC were implemented when troops were needed in much greater numbers and much more quickly. Eventually this technology becomes the GeNodes, afterall. And something needs to account for the tales of clones during the Clone Wars from Pelleaon and Thrawn. One recalls that according to them the clonemasters found a way to get around the one year gestation limit, but no one knows how.

[Cos Dashit]

Spaarti clones are just Republic improvements on Kaminoan hardware. I'd imagine similar concepts and other enhancements from the baseline in AOTC were implemented when troops were needed in much greater numbers and much more quickly.

Indeed, considering how Droids outnumbered Clones by an insane amount.

[Cykeisme]

Spaarti clones are just Republic improvements on Kaminoan hardware. I'd imagine similar concepts and other enhancements from the baseline in AOTC were implemented when troops were needed in much greater numbers and much more quickly.

Indeed, considering how Droids outnumbered Clones by an insane amount.

As for growth time, after the first batch the time would decrease, identical to an assembly line.

That's sufficient explanation. You don't get one batch every ten years; there are clones at every age and stage of training coming off the "assembly line", possibly weeks or even days apart.

[Lazarus]

Think about it, if training over 10 years is more effective than flash training that's going to make the Spaarti clones less skilled, due to their inferior training.

...which makes the Spaarti method more efficient. Would you rather have some slightly less skilled clones in a month, or some more skilled clones in ten years? Clearly, the Spaarti method is far better, the sheer amount of clones you can produce using it beats the Kaminoan method hands down.
Here's a thought. The Kaminoans said in AOTC they had produced a total of 2.5 million clones, which is quite clearly not enough to fight a galactic civil war with, and yet, the Grand Army of the Republic is referred to in several sources as being comprised of clones. Therefore, could the 2.5 million army be an elite force, using their better skills gained due to the 10 year method to the greatest effect, whilst the remainder of the army was made up of Spaarti clones produced on other Republic planets?

[Cos Dashit]

Think about it, if training over 10 years is more effective than flash training that's going to make the Spaarti clones less skilled, due to their inferior training.

...which makes the Spaarti method more efficient. Would you rather have some slightly less skilled clones in a month, or some more skilled clones in ten years?

Doesn't that defeat the purpose of Clones though? The whole reason they wanted Clones was because they were smarter and therefore better in battle than droids. By making the Clones only take a month till they can be used, you are essentially 'droidifying' them and defeating the original purpose of Clones.

[Batman]

Doesn't that defeat the purpose of Clones though? The whole reason they wanted Clones was because they were smarter and therefore better in battle than droids.

Um-where does that come from? I rather thought they wanted clones because they would be available rather fast in sufficient numbers.

By making the Clones only take a month till they can be used, you are essentially 'droidifying' them and defeating the original purpose of Clones.

Um-how so? They may (or may not) be less skilled than slowly trained clones but who says they're not still markedly superior to droids?

[Cos Dashit]

Doesn't that defeat the purpose of Clones though? The whole reason they wanted Clones was because they were smarter and therefore better in battle than droids.

Um-where does that come from? I rather thought they wanted clones because they would be available rather fast in sufficient numbers.

By making the Clones only take a month till they can be used, you are essentially 'droidifying' them and defeating the original purpose of Clones.

Um-how so? They may (or may not) be less skilled than slowly trained clones but who says they're not still markedly superior to droids?

"I hoped you would be pleased, Master Jedi," the Prime Minister said. "Clones can think creatively. You'll find that they are immensely superior to droids, and that ours are the best in all the galaxy."

If they wanted Clones because they would be available rather fast, they wouldn't have used Clones at all; they would have simply built droids.

While they may still be superior to droids, the gap would not be as wide.



I would just like to take this opportunity to congratulate Sonnenburg on his recent election to Senator-hood. Good on ya, mate.

[atg]

re the quality of the spaarti clones, wasn't the whole idea of the flash learning that they would be supremely trained/skilled right away? Hence it was mentioned that Thrawn was picking the best pilots/soldiers etc for the cloning process.

[Ender]

It makes sense that after the first batch they could flash train.

Intiially, they have the bodies, but not the brains. Beyond simple stuff like motor coordination, language, etc that the copied from Jango, all the instructors werre bounty hunters, mercenaries, assassins, etc. Not soldiers. So their experience would not be useful. However, after the first batch was trained, went out and got some experience, they could just flash imprint their memories, shove the clones through boot to get some muscle memory, and chuck them on the front lines.

[Cos Dashit]

Beyond simple stuff like motor coordination, language, etc that the copied from Jango, all the instructors werre bounty hunters, mercenaries, assassins, etc. Not soldiers. So their experience would not be useful.

I am a little confused, are you saying that because the instructors were bounty hunters, their experience would not help the soldiers?

I beg to differ, the training from a bounty hunter as experienced as Jango Fett would be far more useful than a grunt's. From a bounty hunter you can learn originality, creativity, and killing techniques that you couldn't learn from a soldier. Imagine an army of Fett's. Unstoppable. Obi-Wan and Mace Windu both had problems with Jango, an army of them would annihilate droids.

[DesertFly]

Beyond simple stuff like motor coordination, language, etc that the copied from Jango, all the instructors werre bounty hunters, mercenaries, assassins, etc. Not soldiers. So their experience would not be useful.

I am a little confused, are you saying that because the instructors were bounty hunters, their experience would not help the soldiers?

I beg to differ, the training from a bounty hunter as experienced as Jango Fett would be far more useful than a grunt's. From a bounty hunter you can learn originality, creativity, and killing techniques that you couldn't learn from a soldier. Imagine an army of Fett's. Unstoppable. Obi-Wan and Mace Windu both had problems with Jango, an army of them would annihilate droids.

Not really. The Fetts are excellent because they work alone. The same individuality and free-spiritedness that makes them excellent bounty hunters and bodyguards would be severely to their detriment as soldiers in an organized corp. Not to play down their killing skills, but Jango or Boba Fett are most effective on their own, or perhaps in small groups. Formal militaries go through an incredible amount of training to turn individuals into a team. The Fetts in their unaltered state would take more training just to get them to work together well and not get slaughtered by vastly superiour numbers of droids. That's why the original clones were altered to have less individuality and free-spirited. The best place for unaltered Fett clones would be special forces that work alone or in small groups, which is what happened with the ARC troopers and Clone Commandos.

[Ender]

Beyond simple stuff like motor coordination, language, etc that the copied from Jango, all the instructors werre bounty hunters, mercenaries, assassins, etc. Not soldiers. So their experience would not be useful.

I am a little confused, are you saying that because the instructors were bounty hunters, their experience would not help the soldiers?

Absolutely. The skills that make one a good soldier and the skills that make one a good hired thug are totally different.

I beg to differ, the training from a bounty hunter as experienced as Jango Fett would be far more useful than a grunt's. From a bounty hunter you can learn originality, creativity, and killing techniques that you couldn't learn from a soldier. Imagine an army of Fett's. Unstoppable.

Until they face a real army, then they get mowed down.

Tell me, do you think real world armies go through all the trouble of breaking men down and rebuilding them to work as a team, coordinate, and obey just because they like how they look when they march? Or is is maybe because being a skilled independent killer is less useful then being able to bring a geat deal of force to one spot swiftly?

Obi-Wan and Mace Windu both had problems with Jango, an army of them would annihilate droids.

Yea, and the roman gladiators wee such bad asses, and army of them would have owned the legions. Oh wait...

[vakundok]

I know nothing about the EU, but I think the clone masters used each and every template only once and killed the template (to be braindead) before the actual clone production. As I remember it was told that the clones went insane because there was a disturbance between the original and the new brain and the clone brain grown too fast to adapt.
I think, the Kaminoian cloning method can be used to turn out one "run" per 4 - 4.5 months, but it requires huge training facilities.

[Lazarus]

I disagree with most of what you said there vakundok, however I do seem to recall something about the presence of two exact copies of someone causing the disturbance in the force which mad them go crazy, but I'm not entirely sure.
If the clone masters used every template once, then killed the original, that would leave them with exactly the same number of people they started out with, which would be pointless...
IIRC, it is stated in AOTC that it took ten years to train 200,000 troops to combat readiness. Where did this 4 month figure come from?

[Count Dooku]

IIRC, it is stated in AOTC that it took ten years to train 200,000 troops to combat readiness. Where did this 4 month figure come from?

The Caminoin only said that 200,000 UNITS were ready, not men. He could have meant 200,000 Battalions, Divisions, or even Corps for all we know. In all likelyhood, there were probably millions, if not hundreds of millions of clones ready when Obi-wan first visted Camino.