Occupation

brianeyci · Post by **brianeyci** » 2006-02-25 03:18pm

The best kind of resistance would be Bajorans, Maquis, Orion Syndicate, people who have experience subverting authority. All far away from the Federation's core.

Weyoun was wrong about resistance starting around Earth. It wouldn't start on Vulcan, Andoria, Earth, Tellarian or any of the core worlds.

The resistance would have to be willing to do things morally unacceptable. For example ignore execute a million civilians for every Imperial killed. Torture. Killing innocent people, assassination. Probably ruling out any Starfleet. You would need lots of Major Kiras, Sloans.

The most effective would be a kind of religious motivation like Jihadists. Although we don't see much of religion in Star Trek, I doubt the entire galaxy is like that.

None of this is saying that there would be a resistance. As long as the Empire doesn't start rounding up people and killing them at random, I don't think any resistance will spring up. Any kind of resistance will come from the non-core worlds, those with the least ties to the Federation, and they won't give a shit of one overlord over another, as long as the Empire doesn't start slave labor camps like Klingons or Cardassians.

Brian

Noble Ire · Post by **Noble Ire** » 2006-02-25 03:23pm

None of this is saying that there would be a resistance. As long as the Empire doesn't start rounding up people and killing them at random, I don't think any resistance will spring up. Any kind of resistance will come from the non-core worlds, those with the least ties to the Federation, and they won't give a shit of one overlord over another, as long as the Empire doesn't start slave labor camps like Klingons or Cardassians.

Of course, they very well might. After all, the Empire held no compunction against enslaving the Wookiees, Talz, Mon Calamari, etc. The Empire will need to build a lot of infastructure in their new territory, and if they see billions upon billions of non-human potential laborers sitting around, I doubt enterprizing Moffs are going to balk at the prospect. Then you'll have your occasional odd-bal admiral or officer who simply goes around the fringe territories and slaughters populations of entire worlds simply because he has the power and no one in command feels that it necessary to stop him.

brianeyci · Post by **brianeyci** » 2006-02-25 03:39pm

If that happens it all comes down to whether the resistance will be effective. Trek weapons are powerful enough to kill at short range, and they have explosives. If human history has anything to say, it's not the technology that determines whether you win the hearts and minds of the populace.

The resistance won't "win". Just like the Jihadists in Iraq won't win, and in this case the Empire doesn't have any political roadblocks so there's absolutely no chance of inflicting enough casualties that they'll pull out. The battle will be for the hearts and minds of the subjugated peoples.

If the Empire has to divert a 1 to 1 ratio of men and troops to the Milky Way, then the resistance is effective. And why would they do this, given Count Dooku's casual comment, "another ten thousand star systems" joined the separatists. All the inhabited planets in the Milky Way wouldn't even be on the Empire's radar. And the other two galaxies near the SW galaxy. The Milky Way will be a backwater post with low priority, unless you assume everything in the Star Wars galaxy is completely crushed and there's nothing else to do (what happens when the Vong show up).

It will depend a lot on flexibility and decentralized structure. Small cells that don't contact each other or don't know each other. Low-tech weapons. That probably means no ultrinium devices like Kira's, that seems difficult to obtain and contraband. A lot of older phaser weapons in the colonies far from the core are probably still hanging around from Kirk's time. Replicators can fashion explosives. It would take a leader, a Bin Laden, to do something, and I'm not sure that one would spring up.

Maybe there would be a charismatic leader from the Rebellion. I can see a lot of people from the Rebellion coming to the new galaxy to escape the Imperials, assuming the Rebellion is crushed.

Then there's the whole problem with no internet and no way to organize a galactic resistance. Al Qaeda uses the web, what can Kira Mk. II use?

Brian

brianeyci · Post by **brianeyci** » 2006-02-25 03:53pm

As for a nice low-tech weapon easy to maintain weapon, I nominate Klingon weapons. You can build them from your fucking shoe lol.

If all else fails... if in Rome... if the Imperials start colonizing the Milky Way (and why not) there'll be all kinds of smugglers and seedy types moving in. Buy a crate of E-11's for your terrorists... any kind of weapon that is easy to maintain and fully automatic good for the shoot and spray... although Al Qaeda had training camps and in Afganistan their people were getting headshots, so maybe that's not for sure.

The Cardassians probably have low-tech easy to maintain weapons too, they're poor people with a strong military and I can't see them using "gyrostabilized multiple-target acquisition" phasers.

Also, I remember when Major Kira had to replicate a Klingon chemically-propelled weapon (a gun) because of some technobabble disabling all the phaser weapons on the station. I don't remember whether the weapon was in a book or on the show. But then she armed the whole station with them, and they slaughtered whoever it was (I think it was Borg?) Pretty sure it was not the show and it was some book.

Brian

Coalition · Post by **Coalition** » 2006-03-04 05:17am

Bounty wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:Keep in mind that the Empire is more than willing to use the classic "one thousand of your people will die for every one of ours" Brutal Overlord technique. But they might make it a million instead, just for punctuation.
Just wondering : wha's their carrot approach ? Would they be lenient to a world that joins them voluntarily, and allow them to maintain relatively independant (ie, ruled by the locals but answering to the local Imperial representative) ? I can see governments like the Vulcans or Karemma seeking such a deal.

Vastly superior technology, including medical and terraforming, to help the people live healthier and easier lives? Planets in the Federation's rim are struggling to survive, and they get offered the knowledge of how to make a better water filter? They will jump at the opportunity. Add a Star Destroyer (if something that powerful is really needed) for local defense and to drive off smugglers if you really want to make the locals drool.

Basically, you provide better technology, but not the full Imperial stuff. You help them, so the people get greedy, and want more. If they want more enough, they will join you out of free will. Protection from slavers and other nasty types is a very nice benefit too.

Of course, you may have to deploy extra ships to the area, to keep your new citizens safe. Scanner sats will make this easier, allowing you to deploy your ships more efficiently, and within range of the new holonet being set up allows for near-instant comms.

You will have to set up new schools, to provide instruction on the new technologies to your citizens, and the easiest way would be to use existing school programs. The ones that incorporate loyalty teachings, that keep your people loyal to the Empire.

Glocksman · Post by **Glocksman** » 2006-03-05 10:55pm

How the occupation goes would depend upon just what is the ultimate goal the GE has in mind.

If the goal is just to ruthlessly exploit the resources of the AQ and to hell with the inhabitants, then the Empire can use whatever brutal tactics necessary to supress resistance, up to and including BDZ'ing entire worlds as examples.

Think of Hitler's occupation of the USSR as an example of this type of occupation policy.

OTOH, if the goal is the eventual co-option of much of the AQ into the Emipre as proper Imperial worlds, then occupation policy would have to sheath the iron fist behind a velvet glove after an initial reign of terror and emphazise the benefits of Imperial Rule such as stability, prosperity, and so on while making clear that mass resistance leads to mass retaliation. The Empire would also have to make adroit use of the various AQ factions by playing them off of one another.

A good example of the 'carrot and stick' policy would be Heydrich's policies as Reich Protector in Czechoslovakia.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2006-03-05 10:58pm

Keep in mind that people are talking about the Romulans: a distinct subset of one species, mounting the primary resistance. The Empire would have no compunction about annihilating them to the last man, woman, and child in order to set an example for the others. And while it might outrage the others, there is always the "well, it happened to people not like me" defense mechanism that people have used in their minds since time immemorial. They would still be rather intimidated, and the Empire wouldn't really lose a whole lot. A few hundred worlds in the Empire's view is a drop in the bucket.

brianeyci · Post by **brianeyci** » 2006-03-05 11:26pm

The Romulans are proud, but there's an easy solution--free the Remans. I can see the Romulans launching terriorist attacks, but not the kind you'd need for the Empire to really care. For them to really care the ST Rebellion would have to have to be jihadists. Also help from Luke Skywalker wouldn't be that bad lol.

I thought Tarkin was the exception in the Empire. Do Moffs basically have free reign over their entire sector and can torture, kill and maim without any kind of oversight at all? That's brutal.

As for technology, I can see it working. The Federation seems to do this too--join us, and we give you technology and protection. Outer colonies wouldn't care whether it was the Empire or the Federation, although eventually they would change their minds if slave camps come in. The Federation would be a much more live and let live kind of protectors simply because they can't field enough redshirts to really force a government to do anything, while the Empire could put a man on every street corner. And yes, they were going to do this in Paradise Lost, but the Federation's idea of an army is at most billions (probably more like millions or hundreds of thousands, what kind of troop transports are there, Galaxies?) while the Empire's is trillions.

Brian

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2006-03-05 11:40pm

You know, I remember this coming up once before, but basically, if you look at all the rights the Empire took away from its citizens, the Federation had none of them, by virtue of its system and lower tech. In fact, the stuff the Empire brought with it actually gave the Feds more freedom then they had before.

Post by **NecronLord** » 2006-03-06 03:04pm

brianeyci wrote:I thought Tarkin was the exception in the Empire. Do Moffs basically have free reign over their entire sector and can torture, kill and maim without any kind of oversight at all? That's brutal.

Yes. The rank of 'Moff' (something somewhat different from normal governors) was explicitly created after RotS because Palpatine wanted to give the most ambious and morally bankrupt bastards he could find near-absolute power. You know what the first thing Tarkin did on receiving the rank of Moff was? Join with Vader in slave-raiding Kashyyk. They are the bad guys. Brutal is what they are.

Do you think perhaps that Palpatine created an inquisition because he was looking out for the common man's rights?

Do not let the imperial apologism rampant on this board fool you, practically any kind of badness that can be mentioned in a PG setting is preformed with the consent of the Galactic Empire. Everything from slavery (innumerate sources) to mass murder and total depopulation of planets based on the whim of ranking officials. It's not just 'bad because it's undemocratic' it's bad because it'd make Himmler and Mengele cream thier pants in envy.

Post by **NecronLord** » 2006-03-06 03:09pm

Ender wrote:You know, I remember this coming up once before, but basically, if you look at all the rights the Empire took away from its citizens, the Federation had none of them, by virtue of its system and lower tech.

I'm pretty sure that there's not much of a case for Federation citizens being arbitrarily arrested and 'disappeared.' Socialist as they are, they do seem to provide a basic immunity from summary excecution for no reason, or murder for political expedience. Also, unless you're a hologram, the Federation isn't going to enslave you. Similarly, the United Federation of Planets does not operate 'dungeon ships' that kidnap entire planetary populations for slavery, vivisection, or just 'disposal' of 'inferior' alien races.

Post by **NecronLord** » 2006-03-06 03:21pm

Coalition wrote:Planets in the Federation's rim are struggling to survive, and they get offered the knowledge of how to make a better water filter?

Would the Empire really care? They don't seem to do much to support their own rim planets. If they're lucky the new galaxy will be accessible to the Empire's private sector, and someone will sell them a new water filter, but other than that, I don't see the Imperial Government helping anyone unless it has a damn fine reason.

Protection from slavers

Something the Imperial regime provided so dazzlingly well to its own subjects. Oh wait... They are slavers. They're more likely to sell, say, the entire Trill species, to recoup the expense of the invasion.

Of course, you may have to deploy extra ships to the area, to keep your new citizens safe.

Why would they care? They never really cared to say, crush the Hutts. These people have very little to offer the Empire, barring pussy for stormtroopers. Why would they care to protect them? If anyone makes trouble for the Empire, they float over and BDZ something. Other than that, let 'em rot.

You will have to set up new schools,

Why? This is not the Tau. They don't even give a flying fuck about their own galaxy's less empowered citizens. They're much more likely to just take resources like locusts, and let local races suffer.

Doctor Doom · Post by **Doctor Doom** » 2006-03-06 04:21pm

Why? This is not the Tau. They don't even give a flying fuck about their own galaxy's less empowered citizens. They're much more likely to just take resources like locusts, and let local races suffer.

To be fair, much of the discrimination in the Empire during the era of the Galactic Civil War was based on species. So the humans of the Trek galaxy will likely recieve some benefits, with other species being kept on "subsistence" level Wars technology.

Manus Celer Dei · Post by **Manus Celer Dei** » 2006-03-06 04:34pm

NecronLord wrote:Similarly, the United Federation of Planets does not operate 'dungeon ships' that kidnap entire planetary populations for slavery, vivisection, or just 'disposal' of 'inferior' alien races.

They do for inconvinient alien races; see Insurrection.

Nieztchean Uber-Amoeba · Post by **Nieztchean Uber-Amoeba** » 2006-03-06 04:45pm

Manus Celer Dei wrote:
NecronLord wrote:Similarly, the United Federation of Planets does not operate 'dungeon ships' that kidnap entire planetary populations for slavery, vivisection, or just 'disposal' of 'inferior' alien races.
They do for inconvinient alien races; see Insurrection.

That's a red herring the size of a whale. They were re-locating 600 people so the entire Federation of trillions will be free of disease and live twice as long as they would otherwise. Diabolical bastards!

PayBack · Post by **PayBack** » 2006-03-06 04:47pm

NecronLord wrote:
Ender wrote:You know, I remember this coming up once before, but basically, if you look at all the rights the Empire took away from its citizens, the Federation had none of them, by virtue of its system and lower tech.
I'm pretty sure that there's not much of a case for Federation citizens being arbitrarily arrested and 'disappeared.' Socialist as they are, they do seem to provide a basic immunity from summary excecution for no reason, or murder for political expedience. Also, unless you're a hologram, the Federation isn't going to enslave you. Similarly, the United Federation of Planets does not operate 'dungeon ships' that kidnap entire planetary populations for slavery, vivisection, or just 'disposal' of 'inferior' alien races.

They do however disintergrate people on a regular basis and replace them with copies. I wonder if the Empiire would ban Tansporters for human use, or just Imperial citizens?

PayBack · Post by **PayBack** » 2006-03-06 04:48pm

Nieztchean Uber-Amoeba wrote:
Manus Celer Dei wrote:
NecronLord wrote:Similarly, the United Federation of Planets does not operate 'dungeon ships' that kidnap entire planetary populations for slavery, vivisection, or just 'disposal' of 'inferior' alien races.
They do for inconvinient alien races; see Insurrection.
That's a red herring the size of a whale. They were re-locating 600 people so the entire Federation of trillions will be free of disease and live twice as long as they would otherwise. Diabolical bastards!

I agree... it was certainly justified IMNSHO.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2006-03-06 05:00pm

Doctor Doom wrote:
Why? This is not the Tau. They don't even give a flying fuck about their own galaxy's less empowered citizens. They're much more likely to just take resources like locusts, and let local races suffer.
To be fair, much of the discrimination in the Empire during the era of the Galactic Civil War was based on species. So the humans of the Trek galaxy will likely recieve some benefits, with other species being kept on "subsistence" level Wars technology.

Even that is probably an oversimplification. It appears that the prejudice experienced by non-humans during the Galactic Empire era was a result of resentment generated by the Clone Wars, in which it seems that virtually the entire Confederacy was composed of non-human species. Non-human species which sided with the Confederacy would probably be hated for a long time as a result of that conflict, and the result could look very much like "humans first" species discrimination.

Post by **NecronLord** » 2006-03-06 05:11pm

Doctor Doom wrote:To be fair, much of the discrimination in the Empire during the era of the Galactic Civil War was based on species. So the humans of the Trek galaxy will likely recieve some benefits, with other species being kept on "subsistence" level Wars technology.

Even so, they're not exactly well up on supporting outlying colonies developing. Why would they care to spend good credits supporting neobarbs in the Milky Way when they could get far more good press at home by supporting their own galaxy's people first.

Manus Celer Dei wrote:They do for inconvinient alien races; see Insurrection.

I didn't see the Federation holoship containing vivisection laborotories where the Baku were going to be tortured to death for medical research, nor did I see the Federation lining up a contract to sell the Baku as slaves to the Orion Syndicate.

Insurrection would have been much better if it had been something contemptible like that.

PayBack wrote:They do however disintergrate people on a regular basis and replace them with copies. I wonder if the Empiire would ban Tansporters for human use, or just Imperial citizens?

Are you seriously trying to suggest that (mostly consentual) use of the transporter is even slightly equivalent to:

Mass Murder
Genocide
Mass Enslavement
Vivisection of Sentients
Summary Imprisionment of Political Dissidents
Unauthorised surgical procedures (lobotomies) for Political Dissidents

And that's just off the top of my head.

PayBack · Post by **PayBack** » 2006-03-06 06:15pm

NecronLord wrote: Are you seriously trying to suggest that (mostly consentual) use of the transporter is even slightly equivalent to:
Mass Murder
Genocide
Mass Enslavement
Vivisection of Sentients
Summary Imprisionment of Political Dissidents
Unauthorised surgical procedures (lobotomies) for Political Dissidents
And that's just off the top of my head.

Mass Murder yes... and it's equivalence to the rest would depend on your view of them in regard to their severity compared to mass murder. Strangely the fact they've killed and replaced such a huge proportion of their population for nothing more than convenience doesn't sit well with me.

The fact it's consensual is due only to their ignorance. If they seriously considered the fact that as soon as they get disintegrated, they will be dead, and cease to experience life... I can't see how they'd get in there... hell if the copy was made first, and then someone put a gun in their hand and said, here, blow your brains out and the copy will take your place, I'm sure they wouldn't.

Noble Ire · Post by **Noble Ire** » 2006-03-06 06:22pm

Mass Murder yes... and it's equivalence to the rest would depend on your view of them in regard to their severity compared to mass murder. Strangely the fact they've killed and replaced such a huge proportion of their population for nothing more than convenience doesn't sit well with me.

The fact it's consensual is due only to their ignorance. If they seriously considered the fact that as soon as they get disintegrated, they will be dead, and cease to experience life... I can't see how they'd get in there... hell if the copy was made first, and then someone put a gun in their hand and said, here, blow your brains out and the copy will take your place, I'm sure they wouldn't.

This whole "OMG Transporters are teh death machinz!!1!" thing is really quite overblown, IMO. Yes, virtually every advanced civilization in the ST galaxy subjects themselves to the practice. The point is, virtually none of them view it in the light you do (heck, even people like Pulaski and Barclay were freaked out by the conveyance method, not the concept that they would actually die if everything went as planned). Genocide it may be, but no one thinks its genocide, exact copies of each of the viticms are replaced after every event; the comparison to the worst of the Empire's atrocities is in a word, laughable.

Darth Crubus · Post by **Darth Crubus** » 2006-03-06 06:28pm

NecronLord wrote: Are you seriously trying to suggest that (mostly consentual) use of the transporter is even slightly equivalent to:
Mass Murder
Genocide
Mass Enslavement
Vivisection of Sentients
Summary Imprisionment of Political Dissidents
Unauthorised surgical procedures (lobotomies) for Political Dissidents
And that's just off the top of my head.

On all counts... Maybe.

And it's not that the act of using the transporter is any worse than cloning yourself as a means of convenient travel, but it's that the Federation has made the act of using the transporter OKAY. The very thought that disintegrating yourself and disrupting your continuity of existence is OKAY is just plain wrong in my book.

Trogdor · Post by **Trogdor** » 2006-03-06 06:54pm

Let's see. I doubt that most of the Feds have the guts and the will for a resistance movement. Maybe a few Starfleeters and perhaps Section 31 might be willing to try, but I doubt that there would be enough of them to be a threat. And if they piss of the Imps enough, then the Imps BDZ a Federation world and they'll probably stop.

The Romulans will either be smart enough to surrender and welcome their new overlords or will get roasted by the Imperials as Mike said. If it's the latter, the only ones who'll survive will be an insignificant few that will manage escape to the UFP worlds and pass themselves off as Vulcans.

Klingons will either all get killed or some of the Houses will agree to surrender and convince some of them to stop getting themselves killed in futile suicide attacks, most likely the House of Duras.

The Marquis know guerilla war, but I doubt that they have the manpower or the resources to be more than a very minor annoyance.

The Bajorans also know guerilla war, but odds are the Imperials will soon say, "Fuck them," and BDZ Bajor to make an example.

Ferengi won't care. They'll be pleased with their new opportunity to make money that such changes will present.

Cardassians are probably the most likely to have a decent resistance, I think. They're a very patriotic people who're very skilled in the arts of deception and espionage. And they must've learned something of guerilla warfare from fighting the Bajoran Resistance and the Marquis. Also, being as non-human as they are, I doubt that the Imperials will give them much reason to see the Empire in a kind light. I suspect that they'll do pretty well until the Empire decides to kill them all.

The Dominion will probably plunge into anarchy if the Empire kills the Founders. Not the easiest thing to control, but not organized resistance.

PayBack · Post by **PayBack** » 2006-03-06 08:48pm

Noble Ire wrote:
Mass Murder yes... and it's equivalence to the rest would depend on your view of them in regard to their severity compared to mass murder. Strangely the fact they've killed and replaced such a huge proportion of their population for nothing more than convenience doesn't sit well with me.

The fact it's consensual is due only to their ignorance. If they seriously considered the fact that as soon as they get disintegrated, they will be dead, and cease to experience life... I can't see how they'd get in there... hell if the copy was made first, and then someone put a gun in their hand and said, here, blow your brains out and the copy will take your place, I'm sure they wouldn't.

This whole "OMG Transporters are teh death machinz!!1!" thing is really quite overblown, IMO. Yes, virtually every advanced civilization in the ST galaxy subjects themselves to the practice. The point is, virtually none of them view it in the light you do (heck, even people like Pulaski and Barclay were freaked out by the conveyance method, not the concept that they would actually die if everything went as planned). Genocide it may be, but no one thinks its genocide, exact copies of each of the viticms are replaced after every event; the comparison to the worst of the Empire's atrocities is in a word, laughable.

Just because THEY don't truly understand what's happening to them doesn't mean it makes it any less genocide. How is it different from asbestos or various pesticides that the powers that be said were safe then later banned? Except for the fact that unlike them, it's fatal 100% of the time. I thought we were looking at this from an objective point of view rather than from that of a brain washed fed citizen?

OK I'll admit it's probably more of a bugbear for me than some people due to the pain caused by trying to explain it to people in the real world who say they wish it was possible. However if you put it to an objective third party (not fed citizens) I suspect they'd see it as genocide

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2006-03-06 08:54pm

Can any of the people dismissing the transporter=killing argument offer anything less idiotic than an Appeal to Incredulity fallacy by way of support?