STGOD2k6 Discussion Thread

[Spyder]

Ask that in game.

[Duckie]

"It was once said that the Khar are very bad at faking friendship.

That is untrue. Ask yourself why they are unsucessfully faking amicability."
--Sun Tzu, c.AD2101

[Thirdfain]

Ask that in game.

Erm, OK.

[Adrian Laguna]

-snip-

I still feel they're a tad too small, the Gaians just never struck me as the type to automate that much.

I'm going to reconcile my population with the tech level (cyborgs! they could easily build lots of robots to do stuff for them cheaply and all the time) and lack of bigger industrial capacity.

During the great wars the Mekidar did a dammed good job (considering the circumnstances, anyway) of evacuating worlds and generally protecting their population. Luckily there was plenty food production left, the industry was all shot up though. There was actually enough food to feed the refugees from the Nurus Federation, who came with a great many ships (you kind of need them to run away across the stars). Something that the Republic was unconfortably short of at the time, which is one of the main reasons they let them in. Mantaining billions of cyborgs permanently locks some of the industrial capacity away from things like "defense". Also, having a population that is a tad too large means that folks will be disinclined to go around building robots, because then large sections of the population will be getting payed by the government (wellfare) as opposed to paying the government (taxes) as they should be.

I guess that works to my satisfaction.

"All roads lead to Antiga" comes from the myth that Antiga is home to some bizzare shadowey power that brought the sector together . . . conspiracy nuts also use it to try to convince people that their local governments have been taken over and cultists have been known to prey to the mysterious benefactors as a sort of deity. Most shrug it off as a silly superstition.

Exept that this being an STGOD, we all know tha the shadowy organization is real and the "silly superstition" is not that silly. The unfortunate murdering of a Concord Captain and his CO, as well as the creepy thing you posted at the beggining of this thread pretty much confirms it.

[Companion Cube]

"It was once said that the Khar are very bad at faking friendship.

That is untrue. Ask yourself why they are unsucessfully faking amicability."
--Sun Tzu, c.AD2101

If worst comes to worst, I may be able to dump excess population into space to create a potentially dangerous cloud of Pfhorsicles around each major planet.

[Spyder]

I remember thinking that the Federation should have engineered a lot of Vulcans and chopped them up so they could use their flesh as hull plating. There's an episode of Voyager where a torpedo explodes infront of Tuvok and all that happened is he went blind, there were no other physical wounds.

[Adrian Laguna]

[insane fit of jealousy]DAMN YOU THIRDFAIN! I hate you, and your 1337 MS Paint (it is paint, right?) skills![/insane fit of jealusy]
[size=0]For the record, Einy is the God of MS Paint, and thus beyond the petty jealousies of mere mortals.[/size]
Okay, I feel better now.
[size=0]Perhaps venting was better suited to this? Oh well...[/size]
My compliments to Thirdfain on his very well made ship designs. Not only are they prettyful, the actual design makes plenty of logical sense for a space craft. I really like them. Also, kudos to you for making a deep and interesting civilization without resorting to writing a six-page disertation on them (like I wound-up doing with the Republic).



There seem to be a lot of people that signed-up for the STGOD, and seem to still be active in the forumns but aren't posting much (or at all). Let's see:

Pablo Sanchez showed-up in the original thread, posted his OOB in the OOB Thread, took a disliking to the Collective in the Diplomacy Thread, and then dissapeared. Are we going to see the third Grand flexing its muscles any time soon? I'm guessing he doesn't feel there is anything important for the Freehold to do at the moment.

Vanas created a nation, but later made some comments alluding that (s)he may not have the time. Seen him (her?) around in the forumns a bit.

Captain Tyco also made a nation, I've seen him around as well. Hasn't posted ever since he accused the Mekidar Republic of smelling of elderberries several pages earlier in this thread.

Then there is Raxmei and Academia Nut, but I haven't seen them, suggesting that they're not available. I do realize that an STGOD is a greater time investment than browsing the forumns and making posts here and there. If any of the above mentioned posters don't have the time... *shrugs* too bad I guess. Real life concerns do, and should, take prescedence. It would be nice if they showed-up though.

[Thirdfain]

1. Glimmervoid! I've got scout cruisers in amongst your main planets. They detect the powerful emnations of your civilization. Soon they will be buzzing your systems and detecting your defenses. If you don't stop them, I'll be able to attack with excellent intelligence data.

2.

Also, kudos to you for making a deep and interesting civilization without resorting to writing a six-page disertation on them (like I wound-up doing with the Republic).

I can't take too much credit for the Parliamentary Empire. What I'm posting has been ripped almost wholesale from China Mieville's excellent novels: Perdido Street Station, The Scar, and Iron Council. The Parliamentary Empire is merely a projection of what his city-state of New Crobuzon would look in a millenia. Most of the ideas and technologies I use are ripped or modified from his own imagination. Crisis Energy, The Torque, Probability mining, Communicatrices, metaclockwork, most of the alien races, even the Fat Sun political party. Only a handful of the elements you see are my own inventions (though the modern political scheming, the Teshite cold war, modern Imperial government organization, and the characters involved are all my own invention- as are the warships and Marines of the Imperial Navy. There's also a couple things I've dreamed up which you haven't seen yet, such as the Houriim, which a're mostly original- but over all, this STGOD nation is one of my least original.

It is, however, a great deal of fun.

3.

My compliments to Thirdfain on his very well made ship designs. Not only are they prettyful, the actual design makes plenty of logical sense for a space craft.

Ship designs are all done in paint, I've just been taking old pictures of turn-of-the century steel warships and using the design elements to put together space warships. It's a lot of fun, and it's not too hard.

Here's a size comparison between the Pax Crobuzona superdreadnought Battlehsip and the Tarmuth Protected Cruiser:



5.

Pablo Sanchez showed-up in the original thread, posted his OOB in the OOB Thread, took a disliking to the Collective in the Diplomacy Thread, and then dissapeared. Are we going to see the third Grand flexing its muscles any time soon? I'm guessing he doesn't feel there is anything important for the Freehold to do at the moment.

Ol' Pablo has a way of showing up when he is least expected and wanted, and just mucking everything up. Oh, memories...

6. Oh, and Spyder? That ended more or less precisely how it was hoping it would end.

[Adrian Laguna]

-snip Thirdfain clarifying things about his nation-

That's interesting information, maybe I'll take a look at Mieville's work in the future. However, I was aware that Crobuzon isn't terribly original (you mentioned it before). What I was commending you on, is mostly your ability to give detailed descriptions and establish rich narrative with so few words.

Here's a size comparison between the Pax Crobuzona superdreadnought Battlehsip and the Tarmuth Protected Cruiser: -snip picture-

That Cruiser is measures just over 1.5 miles. Isn't that a tad too big for a 10-point ship?

Ol' Pablo has a way of showing up when he is least expected and wanted, and just mucking everything up.

Looking forward to it...

[Thirdfain]

That Cruiser is measures just over 1.5 miles. Isn't that a tad too big for a 10-point ship?

To be honest, I want to cut back on the total size of the capital ships as well. I'm sort of under the impression this is a moderate to low-tech game, essentiall at Star Trek levels. I made the comparison based on point cost- the PC costs 12 times as much as a Tarmuth, and if you take into account all three dimensions, the PC in that pic is about 12 times the size of the little cruiser. I invision the Tarmuth class as being in the area of half a mile long.

BTW, I'd point out that in a Star Wars scale STGOD, 1.5 miles is about the right length for a light cruiser. Recall that a destroyer-class vessel is in the area of a mile long...

[Stormin]

There are other considerations for ship size than point cost. Diem warships are tiny for their point cost and role, mostly because there is no space given for more than 1 long term crew/occupant.
Biological reaction times are too slow for modern high-energy combat and safety concerns for a crew would further detract from a ships combat abilities. By removing the crew, the Diem are able to compete despite a lower tech base and much lower population/industrial level.

[Spyder]

6. Oh, and Spyder? That ended more or less precisely how it was hoping it would end.

I figured as much, I would have had a slight advantage if I launched everything, but the fight would have been expensive regardless of the victor in both for the ship and in the long term.

The Artemis' mission was recon, in which it was successful.

[Adrian Laguna]

To be honest, I want to cut back on the total size of the capital ships as well. I'm sort of under the impression this is a moderate to low-tech game, essentiall at Star Trek levels. I made the comparison based on point cost- the PC costs 12 times as much as a Tarmuth, and if you take into account all three dimensions, the PC in that pic is about 12 times the size of the little cruiser. I invision the Tarmuth class as being in the area of half a mile long.

That would put the Pax Crobuzona in the near two mile range, 1.8 miles to be exact. My general impression is that the powers here are smaller than Trek, but have higher tech level, or at least can deal out more punishment with their weaponry. This is not that implausible, the Culture is many times smaller than the Empire, but it would easily beat it in combat.

BTW, I'd point out that in a Star Wars scale STGOD, 1.5 miles is about the right length for a light cruiser. Recall that a destroyer-class vessel is in the area of a mile long...

Has there even been one of those? If you want Star Wars scale people would have be spending points on warship squadrons as opposed to individual ships. And that's if you're talking about thousands of worlds in the game map, not millions like the actual Star Wars universe.

[Thirdfain]

6. Oh, and Spyder? That ended more or less precisely how it was hoping it would end.

I figured as much, I would have had a slight advantage if I launched everything, but the fight would have been expensive regardless of the victor in both for the ship and in the long term.

The Artemis' mission was recon, in which it was successful.

You would have won (or, more likely, forced me to sacrifice the destroyer to get the Basilaerus out of there.) The lack of fighter cover for my scouting forces is turning out to be a serious problem.

Oh, Glimmervoid! I forgot to mention, I've also posted a BC squadron showing up over Shearwater.

Has there even been one of those? If you want Star Wars scale people would have be spending points on warship squadrons as opposed to individual ships. And that's if you're talking about thousands of worlds in the game map, not millions like the actual Star Wars universe.

STGODs 2 and 5 were set in a universe of Star Wars scale, albeit with significantly lower population densities. We dealt in hundreds of worlds to make things easier.

I'm making the PC 2 miles long, a nice round number. That'll drop the Tarmuth to about .4 miles in length.

[Duckie]

Khar ships range from about 150 meters (Frigates) to a ridiculously wasteful 11 KM (Old, Age-Of-Silver era Light Cruiser/Current Khar Flagship vessel.)

On a different matter of scale,

Battleships, Dreadnoughts, and Superdreadnoughts mount 1, 2, and 3 (respectively) SHALAM Weapon turrets with muzzles capable of swallowing a destroyer whole lengthwise. The Flagship has 14, but they're considerably higher tech and smaller.

Why? Cause everything is better gigantic. No, don't bother with the "Tip of the Iceberg" explanation of weaponry system space requirements. I didn't make the Khar faux Japanese just to be denied the use of anime-style gigantic-ass 'laser' cannons.

[Dahak]

In the older STGOD, it was the points that mattered. SIzes were just a topping... The ranges were huge for a given class of ship. I think we shouldn't start equalising lenghts here... We have the points values to consider, size just doesn't matter

[Lancer]

In the older STGOD, it was the points that mattered. SIzes were just a topping... The ranges were huge for a given class of ship. I think we shouldn't start equalising lenghts here... We have the points values to consider, size just doesn't matter

Says you. Bigger ships make for larger targets.

[Thirdfain]

Says you. Bigger ships make for larger targets.

When you are fighting at ranges measured in the tens or hundreds of thousands of kilometers, or further, in formations tens of thousands of kilometers in size, a 1-mile long ship is about as hard to hit as a 2-mile long ship.

Also, smaller vessels are more vulnerable to damage, being more compact, they are more likely to take a hit to a critical system, or to have collateral damage be a problem.

[Lancer]

Says you. Bigger ships make for larger targets.

When you are fighting at ranges measured in the tens or hundreds of thousands of kilometers, or further, in formations tens of thousands of kilometers in size, a 1-mile long ship is about as hard to hit as a 2-mile long ship.

Also, smaller vessels are more vulnerable to damage, being more compact, they are more likely to take a hit to a critical system, or to have collateral damage be a problem.

That's a trade off that has to be made. However, I'm willing to be lazy and say that it all has been factored into the points cost, so a 100-m frigate and a 1 km frigate of equivalent point cost will fare roughly the same.

[Adrian Laguna]

In the older STGOD, it was the points that mattered. SIzes were just a topping... The ranges were huge for a given class of ship. I think we shouldn't start equalising lenghts here... We have the points values to consider, size just doesn't matter

I'd like some sort of consistency in the sizes of ships. It doesn't have to be perfectly uniform, but it would be nice if we don't have multi-kilometer cruisers being beaten around by half-mile-long battleships.

Incidentally, I was wondering if the way the points are distributed in a ship are taken into account? For example, a battle-cruiser and armoured cruiser might be worth the same amount of points. However, one sacrifices protection for speed, while the other does the opposite. This is important to consider, along with the tactics being employed by each side, if we are to avoid things like "18 pts = 18 pts, both ships are crippled badly," and, "73 pts > 68, I win."

[Stormin]

The way I see it, point value takes everything into account. This includes tech level, ship design and the competence of the crew/commanders and the tactics used.
The Cultureverse IPod and the GE Deathstar would have same point value and equal chance in a fight, but they are the products of different tech levels, design, etc.

[Spyder]

Incidentally, I was wondering if the way the points are distributed in a ship are taken into account? For example, a battle-cruiser and armoured cruiser might be worth the same amount of points. However, one sacrifices protection for speed, while the other does the opposite. This is important to consider, along with the tactics being employed by each side, if we are to avoid things like "18 pts = 18 pts, both ships are crippled badly," and, "73 pts vs. 68, I win."

The points system only goes so far. All it's meant to do is give us a vague idea of the battle prowess of a particular ship. What we want to prevent is someone picking a particular attribute, let's say speed, and then not properly account for it. For example, in an older STGOD you might see "The Megadoom class Speed Destroyer zipped around the Carthonian dreadnaught and pelted it with plasma fire, destroying it before it could get a shot off."

What the points system does is force players to recognise that an enemy ship is going to have advantages of their own. For example, if two 10 point ships fight each other and one of them is quite fast, the owner of the fast ship has to recognise that the other ship will have it's own advantages and should attempt to describe the battle as two equal adversaries squaring off, now as though one ship had some extreme advantage.

Now, one the subject of the points system. It's important to note that superrior points do not equal a win. The recent encounter between Crobuzon and Concord forces is a good example. Say instead of docking the fighters I had them keep moving and used them to lure the Basilaerus and her escort past the asteroid where the Artemis was hiding. The point count was Crobuzon 18 vs Benefactors 10. The Artemis however would have had an excellent opportunity to start pelting the Crobuzon ships with warheads before they could react. First strike and a suprise attack would have limited their ability to respond with their full strength and defend themselves from consecutive attacks. The counter attack would be from weakened vessels and against a ship that would already be taking defensive actions (flak wall, ect.)

That's not to say the Crobuzon couldn't have won (we're ignoring the Artemis' fighters for the sake of this example) but it would have required more then "oh shit, let's just sit here, return fire and hope for the best."

As for stats, Concord Conrads and ICF Tarmuths seem to fulfill similar roles, and would assume that both ships would have similar speed bonuses, however if say the ship was something a little more solid I would have written the battle as my ship trying to use it's toughness to weather the Basilaerus' counter attacks while Thirdfain would possibly have tried to write in the Basilaerus using it's speed and maneuverability to get itself into a better position to strike back at the enemy ship using an attack pattern involving the destroyer and possible the asteroid.

Basically, as long as both people recognise that ships will have their advantages in certain areas then it should be fine.

Probably the most important thing to note is that points are not hit points, and aren't going to carry you if you don't deploy wisely. Some careful thinking on one side and some poor decisions on the other could potentially see a dreadnaught losing to a frigate.

[Spyder]

And the competence of the crew/commanders and the tactics used.

Nope, strategic and tactical competence is reliant on the competence of the actual player. If you make your ship do something dumb, point values may not matter. Think of the points as merely a representation of available resources and the tactics being simply how the player makes use of the resources he has.

[Stormin]

Nope, strategic and tactical competence is reliant on the competence of the actual player. If you make your ship do something dumb, point values may not matter. Think of the points as merely a representation of available resources and the tactics being simply how the player makes use of the resources he has.

A trained and competent crew and commander would be more efficient at a higher cost in training and selection. The gains in efficiency would be part of any ships or groups overall point value.
I was not talking about deployment or overall strategic/tactical manuvering.

Edit: The tactical manuvering I spoke of would be standard evasive or other manuvers that are considered to simply be happening without specific mentioning being given to them. Ships manuver to reduce incoming damage and increase delivered firepower, this is a given assumption except in cases where someones combat method involves standing still and being able to absorb incoming fire.

[Spyder]

A trained and competent crew and commander would be more efficient at a higher cost in training and selection. The gains in efficiency would be part of any ships or groups overall point value.
I was not talking about deployment or overall strategic/tactical manuvering.

Edit: The tactical manuvering I spoke of would be standard evasive or other manuvers that are considered to simply be happening without specific mentioning being given to them. Ships manuver to reduce incoming damage and increase delivered firepower, this is a given assumption except in cases where someones combat method involves standing still and being able to absorb incoming fire.

That doesn't happen automatically. If someone attacks one of your ships and you respond with a post that simply says "return fire" and nothing else, it will be assumed that your ship is standing still while returning fire. When you describe the battle you do actually have to specify what your ships are doing.

Also, having point values dictate training and competance makes no sense because a 100 point dreadnaught isn't neccessarilly going to have a more competant crew then a 4 point frigate.