Spaarti cloning cylinders vs clone wars cloners

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Cos Dashit
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Post by Cos Dashit »

Count Dooku wrote:
Lazarus wrote:IIRC, it is stated in AOTC that it took ten years to train 200,000 troops to combat readiness. Where did this 4 month figure come from?
The Caminoin only said that 200,000 UNITS were ready, not men. He could have meant 200,000 Battalions, Divisions, or even Corps for all we know. In all likelyhood, there were probably millions, if not hundreds of millions of clones ready when Obi-wan first visted Camino.
Make's sense, I have always wondered what good 200,000 men would do. Units would make more sense. Does anybody have a quote that tells what they meant by units?

I just returned the novelization of Episode II today at the library. Should've held on to it for one more day.
Please forgive any idiotic comments, stupid observations, or dumb questions in above post, for I am but a college student with little real world experience.
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Post by Connor MacLeod »

The AOTC novelization makes it pretty clear that "unit" refers to individual (and this is, naturally, the definition supported by following sources.)
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Post by Cykeisme »

Wasn't it officially "retconned"? And then, in addition, all subsequent Clone Wars era fiction were disallowed from giving numbers for the size of the GAR?
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Post by Mange »

Cykeisme wrote:Wasn't it officially "retconned"? And then, in addition, all subsequent Clone Wars era fiction were disallowed from giving numbers for the size of the GAR?
Traviss' novel Triple Zero, published as late as last week, contains the three million figure (Labyrinth of Evil and some other novels also refer to 1.2 million soldiers of the GAR). However, if I've understood things correctly, Traviss has promised some sort of retcon later.
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Post by FTeik »

The ITW:AOTC says in its Kamino-entry, that the first divisions of clones are ready and in the next sentence it says, that "millions more are in the making". Of course, the question that remains now is, does the "millions" refer to clones or divisions?
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Post by vakundok »

Lazarus wrote:I disagree with most of what you said there vakundok, however I do seem to recall something about the presence of two exact copies of someone causing the disturbance in the force which mad them go crazy, but I'm not entirely sure.
If the clone masters used every template once, then killed the original, that would leave them with exactly the same number of people they started out with, which would be pointless...
What I recall was that the disturbance arose between the already mature (assuming a mature original) template and the growing clone(s). So, if you start a batch of say 20.000 spaarti clones and kill the template immediately, it seems possible that you will have 20.000 clones faster than the normal 3-5 years without the tendency to go insane.
IIRC, it is stated in AOTC that it took ten years to train 200,000 troops to combat readiness. Where did this 4 month figure come from?
It came from the 9 months embrional stage. More specifically from the half of it. (I assumed that the growth acceleration worked even at that stage.) So, yes, it takes ten years to have even a single soldier, but with continuous "production" after the ten years you can have a soldier with every 4 - 4.5 months from the same incubator whereas conventional spaarti clones takes only three or so years, but you cannot use the same tube until the first clone is "finished". Of course, the continuous production of Kaminoian type clones requires huge training facilities, as I wrote.
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Post by Cos Dashit »

Connor MacLeod wrote:The AOTC novelization makes it pretty clear that "unit" refers to individual (and this is, naturally, the definition supported by following sources.)
Well, what good is 1,200,000 Clones against literally quadrillions of battle droids?
Please forgive any idiotic comments, stupid observations, or dumb questions in above post, for I am but a college student with little real world experience.
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Post by Morilore »

Cos Dashit wrote:
Connor MacLeod wrote:The AOTC novelization makes it pretty clear that "unit" refers to individual (and this is, naturally, the definition supported by following sources.)
Well, what good is 1,200,000 Clones against literally quadrillions of battle droids?
Not everyone in the Grand Army of the Republic was a clone?
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Post by Noble Ire »

Morilore wrote:
Cos Dashit wrote:
Connor MacLeod wrote:The AOTC novelization makes it pretty clear that "unit" refers to individual (and this is, naturally, the definition supported by following sources.)
Well, what good is 1,200,000 Clones against literally quadrillions of battle droids?
Not everyone in the Grand Army of the Republic was a clone?
It is stated in numerous sources that clones made up the overwhelming bulk of the GAR ground forces. There were plenty of non-clone support personel and fleet crewers, but the Jango-types had to carry the ground war.
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Post by Cykeisme »

Mange the Swede wrote:
Cykeisme wrote:Wasn't it officially "retconned"? And then, in addition, all subsequent Clone Wars era fiction were disallowed from giving numbers for the size of the GAR?
Traviss' novel Triple Zero, published as late as last week, contains the three million figure (Labyrinth of Evil and some other novels also refer to 1.2 million soldiers of the GAR). However, if I've understood things correctly, Traviss has promised some sort of retcon later.
How the hell did the three million idiocy get into a novel that's out this late?!!

Considering the decent quality of the rest of her stuff, especially with regards to the reality of military engagements, that three million bullshit is total garbage. The most hilarious part is when she pathetically tried to justify the figures!

Anyone got a link to the SW blog that details the 3,000,000 trooper fallacy? I don't recall..

Edit: Got it.
http://blogs.starwars.com/captainneeda/
"..history has shown the best defense against heavy cavalry are pikemen, so aircraft should mount lances on their noses and fly in tight squares to fend off bombers". - RedImperator

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Post by Cykeisme »

I've been reading Traviss' blog.

She's adamant about her "oh, Star Wars is just fantasy. Numbers don't matter" approach.
"..history has shown the best defense against heavy cavalry are pikemen, so aircraft should mount lances on their noses and fly in tight squares to fend off bombers". - RedImperator

"ha ha, raping puppies is FUN!" - Johonebesus

"It would just be Unicron with pew pew instead of nom nom". - Vendetta, explaining his justified disinterest in the idea of the movie Allspark affecting the Death Star
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Post by Lazarus »

Seriously? She's a published EU author and her view is that accuracy doesn't matter, cos its fiction? What the hell kind of writer says that? Regardless of what an author is writing about, accuracy is necessary to create a believeable atmosphere. If I was writing a war novel about WW2, I wouldn't give the Nazis's M-16's and make there be only 500 of them, because it isn't accurate. Apparently she thinks this would be ok?
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Post by Noble Ire »

Cykeisme wrote:I've been reading Traviss' blog.

She's adamant about her "oh, Star Wars is just fantasy. Numbers don't matter" approach.
It really is quite odd that someone so (mostly positively) involved with the actual expansion of the EU material base would hold such an opinion. Frankly, her work with the Mandalorian language and culture, most of the expanded material on the GAR, and her novels/short stories have been excellent. I'd expect this kind of crap from, say KJA, but not someone like her. :?
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Post by Illuminatus Primus »

Cykeisme wrote:I've been reading Traviss' blog.

She's adamant about her "oh, Star Wars is just fantasy. Numbers don't matter" approach.
Bullshit. She wrote a fucking technical article having the pretention of being a very specific type of technical document which is significant only in its real-world meaning: military orders of battle. If Star Wars is just cartoonish fantasy, than do not try to sell shitty products to me that have the pretention of being based on real life technicals. Just write fluffy stories.
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Post by Mange »

Illuminatus Primus wrote:
Cykeisme wrote:I've been reading Traviss' blog.

She's adamant about her "oh, Star Wars is just fantasy. Numbers don't matter" approach.
Bullshit. She wrote a fucking technical article having the pretention of being a very specific type of technical document which is significant only in its real-world meaning: military orders of battle. If Star Wars is just cartoonish fantasy, than do not try to sell shitty products to me that have the pretention of being based on real life technicals. Just write fluffy stories.
There are a few things I don't like about Traviss. It's impossible to discuss this issue with her (she has forgotten that she initiated the discussion about this in the first place. I was never involved, but I've tried since) and her use of the word "talifan" about SW fans that doesn't agree. We're paying for her stuff.
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Post by Illuminatus Primus »

There's nothing to agree on. She wants to play hard and loose with the facts? Likes cartoony SW? Likes it to be "space opera" - the preferred excuse -?

Okay, fine. Stay to OT-esque, myth-based, highly figurative and narrative writing, not technical-based, military fic which by its very nature is going to be strong on the hard SF tendencies. Do not try to sell me crap which is significant only in its comparison to real world technical documents and attempts to ape their meaning in a fantasy world.

This bitch wants her cake and to eat it too: she wants to be the Tom Clancy of SW, and gets upset when someone points out that you need to know what the fuck you're talking about from a scientific, logical, and technical perspective in order to do that - she acts as if we're telling Lucas to write hard SF into his films and we are not - she's offering a largely different product altogether and not meeting the standards set for it.

Its totally hypocritical: by producing an order of battle for SW militaries, you are imposing an additional level of realism and technical jargon which was not there before. All we're asking if you're going to have pretensions of selling us OoBs, they ought to make sense from the most basic of military perspectives. Y'know, because that's the entire significance of it.

And apparently she's a moron too, because you generally don't treat potential fans as morons or retards and compare them to terrorist-supporting theocracies that cut hands off for misdemeanors and heads for felonies and run over women for...well just about anything. Generally bad business.
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