Count Dooku vs Saruman

[Rathark]

Yes, it's the BATTLE OF THE CHRISTOPHER LEE BADASS DUDES!!!!!

Who will win?

[Master of Ossus]

Saruman is more powerful than Count Dooku.

[LordShaithis]

Everyone waxes on about how powerful these Tolkien characters are, yet they never seem to do anything impressive. I don't recall Gandalf or Saruman doing anything in the LotR series that would rule out a Jedi kicking their ass.

[Smiling Bandit]

Well, they are pretty strong, but their power has little to do with flashy spells, or even the less obvious stunts of a well-trained Jedi. They tend to have mroe to do with the mind and the will rather than the body.

[Next of Kin]

I remember one scene in FOTR with Saruman manipulating the weather on Caradhras. I'm not a wizard but I assume that it couldn't have been easy.

[Darth Wong]

I remember one scene in FOTR with Saruman manipulating the weather on Caradhras. I'm not a wizard but I assume that it couldn't have been easy.

Yes, he made a snowstorm, which was pretty cool. Mind you, a snowstorm's not going to stop a Jedi from eviscerating him.

[SirNitram]

The 'Swing Gandalf around and around by motioning with a staff' was pretty cool, but Dooku proved he's pretty good with telekinesis as well.

Christopher Lee vs. Christopher Lee....

Fuckit, Dooku has the cooler minions and the better ride.

[Nova Andromeda]

[godmode]Saruman wins easily![/godmode]

--Seriously, though I'm not sure we know enough about Saruman's power. I'm sure Tolkien meant for it to be that way as well. Mind you I only consider the original books to be cannon.

[Causchy]

My money is on Saruman

[Master of Ossus]

I remember one scene in FOTR with Saruman manipulating the weather on Caradhras. I'm not a wizard but I assume that it couldn't have been easy.

Yes, he made a snowstorm, which was pretty cool. Mind you, a snowstorm's not going to stop a Jedi from eviscerating him.

Of course, in the books Caradhras was in itself evil, and Saruman had nothing to do with the snowstorm. He was used in the movie to simplify things so that no one got confused about who was the bad guy in the movie.

[Master of Ossus]

Everyone waxes on about how powerful these Tolkien characters are, yet they never seem to do anything impressive. I don't recall Gandalf or Saruman doing anything in the LotR series that would rule out a Jedi kicking their ass.

1. They are immortal.
2. They can kill vast numbers of enemies. Some of which other characters, even very powerful non-magic wielders, would have no effect on. Remember how Gandalf told Boromir, Legolas and even Aragorn that the Baalrog was beyond any of them?
3. Gandalf held off the Nine riders by himself. That cannot be easy.
4. Elrond's father is a star. That cannot be easy to do.
5. The mere release of Sauron from the elves made an entire continent (really a world) split in two. That is something that no Jedi could do.
6. The leader of the Nine is invincible to weapons wielded by men.
7. The Ring is more powerful than anything Exar Kun did.
8. No Jedi could have created the fireworks that Gandalf does in his spare time.
9. Remember that the three elven rings are preserving entire cities and vast tracts of country from decaying. Not even Vader could stop death.

[Darth Wong]

I like LOTR, but let's not get carried away. Let's compare Tolkien's heroes and monsters with not just Sith lords in the Republic, but also modern armies, in order to put their strength into perspective.

1. They are immortal.

That only means they don't age. It doesn't mean they're sword-proof or bullet-proof.

2. They can kill vast numbers of enemies. Some of which other characters, even very powerful non-magic wielders, would have no effect on. Remember how Gandalf told Boromir, Legolas and even Aragorn that the Baalrog was beyond any of them?

True, and he was right. However, a Sith lord is beyond any of them too. A Sith lord would be considered a magic wielder in Tolkien-land, with mind control powers, telekinesis, and prescience (and let's not forget force-lightning). And a modern army would easily take out that Balrog too. A sustained burst from a minigun would take him down easily, not to mention a direct hit from an RPG.

3. Gandalf held off the Nine riders by himself. That cannot be easy.

Agreed. But would a Sith lord be able to do the same? What effect would Force-lightning have on a dark rider? And how would a dark rider stand up to small-arms fire or a white-phosphorous grenade?

4. Elrond's father is a star. That cannot be easy to do.
5. The mere release of Sauron from the elves made an entire continent (really a world) split in two. That is something that no Jedi could do.

Keep in mind that these bits are legend; we do not actually "see" them happening in the events of the story. From a strictly rational standpoint, they don't really make any sense, and they strike me as things that were not meant to be taken literally.

6. The leader of the Nine is invincible to weapons wielded by men.

Hyperbole, meant to apply only to weapons wielded by primitive medieval man. Let's see him hold up to a HEAT shell from an M1's 120mm smoothbore, or watch him beat uselessly against the side of a superbattledroid with his dagger before it knocks him down and blasts him into chunks with a sustained burst of full-auto blaster fire..

7. The Ring is more powerful than anything Exar Kun did.

How so? It corrupts people, it can withstand the heat of a wood-burning fireplace, and it gives Sauron form and the power to be a really big bad-ass who nevertheless was not sword-proof. Big deal. Its most impressive characteristic is the invisibility shield. But what would the Ring do in the context of a technologically advanced society? Restore Sauron? So what? What would happen if Sauron arose today? A big scary sword-wielding dude in primitive armour, with an army of morons. Light artillery would turn him into bacon bits, and napalm airstrikes would turn his army into pet food.

8. No Jedi could have created the fireworks that Gandalf does in his spare time.

Pyrotechnic tricks are a circus side-show act. Besides, we can go one better and make lasers (as can Sith lords).

9. Remember that the three elven rings are preserving entire cities and vast tracts of country from decaying. Not even Vader could stop death.

How do we know that they are actually preventing decay? Were they destroyed, thus causing immediate decay? Or was this legend and fairy tale?

And how would it affect our ability to annihilate all the combined military forces of Middle Earth with modern weapons and vehicles, never mind the ability of a Sith Lord to do it?

Saruman and his pitiful orc army against Count Dooku and his army of battle droids (with air support) would be a horrendous one-sided slaughter. The stench of burning orc meat would rise up to the heavens.

[Mr Bean]

The Ring is more powerful than anything Exar Kun did.

Exar Kun made two Stars Go Nova to destroy a Fleet that was chasing him


And Sauron has demosrate Star Blowing up power when?

Note: Yes I know

[spongyblue]

I got money on Saruman. As far as the Wizards immortality is concerned, it's kinda of a yes and no. In the Silmarillion and other books by Tolkien, he explains the origins of them. They are in a sense "angelic" The reseon that Gandalf didn't 'die' when he fought the Balrog was because in essence, the Valar(non-caporeal beings that gave the wizards their form) still needed Gandalf to do his job, so he was simply reborn(more power and whathave you). Gandalf explaind some of his fight with the Balrog, endless falling very depths of the earth, body badly burned that kinda thing. Most folks, even with a little bit of magic/force mojo couldn't handle it. So basicly what I'm saying(im starting to lose my train of thought here sorry) as long as the wizards are still needed in Middle-Earth, their gonna be there.

And yes they do have some standard magic attacks. It is breifly described when Gandalf took part in one of the later battles emmiting beams of pure light from his hands. So I'm guessing Saruman, being the sneaky,jealous , malicious geezer he is can probably think of something more nasty than that. Take that Dooku.

P.S. What about Lee as Dracula vs Lee as Dooku vs Lee as Saruman---GOD he kicks ass as a baddie

[Master of Ossus]

Sigh. I suppose I must explain a fundamental principal of the Lord of the Rings.

The wizards are immortal in the sense that they cannot die of illness or old age. I thought that I had made that clear when I was making my post. Note that not even Master Yoda was this powerful, but wizards are NATURALLY this tough.

After Gandalf fought the Valar, he did die. He was DEAD. Like the elves (themselves immortal, ref. all of the books), he then passed over the sea when he died. The Valar, immensely powerful, GOD LIKE (not angelic) beings that had created the world sent him back because his duties on Middle Earth were not done. To assist him, the Valar also granted him additional powers, allowing him to come back as Gandalf the White, instead of good ol' Gandalf the Grey. The Valar, wizards, and elves are immortal, the lands across the sea can be accessed by normal transportation (boats that the elves take). Note, also, that the Ring Bearers were not granted immortality by the elves, they were merely transported across the sea. They would eventually die there, and pass beyond the world. When Arwen sacrifices her immortality to be with Aragorn (just as Elrond's brother had, and just as Elrond had chosen NOT to do), she is not merely sacrificing her boarding pass. She now must die, just as mortal men die, and then pass beyond the world.

[Next of Kin]

Of course, in the books Caradhras was in itself evil, and Saruman had nothing to do with the snowstorm.

My bad, M.of.O I totally forgot that the mountain was in essence evil.

1. They are immortal.

True, but Saruman is slain by Grima's blade.

They can kill vast numbers of enemies. Some of which other characters, even very powerful non-magic wielders, would have no effect on. Remember how Gandalf told Boromir, Legolas and even Aragorn that the Baalrog was beyond any of them?

Have we witnessed such a slaughter? Saruman uses his henchman to do his dirty work and his sweet voice to lure others but rarely does he appear and turn his enemies into toads. Is he capable? I really don't know.

[Master of Ossus]

We have not seen a slaughter of weaker enemies by a wizard during either the books or the movies. We can infer that they are capable of it based on several things: The Nazgul do tremendous damage to the defenders of Minas Tirith, and Gandalf the Grey was able to hold off all nine at once. We have also heard of the exploits of the Nine from the Silmarillion. The Baalrogs are themselves highly capable of fighting large numbers of weaker enemies, and because Gandalf was able to fight a Baalrog to a draw, we can infer that Gandalf also has such powers. The fact that we have not seen wizards fighting huge numbers of orcs is unfortunate, but it is eventually irrelevent. Gandalf is tremendously powerful, and from the power of Baalrogs and Nazgul we can divine the approximate power of a wizard in combat. We also might be able to see Gandalf kicking ass in The Twin Towers, though I know some fans of the books will never accept the movies as canon (or, whatever).

[Darth Wong]

Gandalf is tremendously powerful, and from the power of Baalrogs and Nazgul we can divine the approximate power of a wizard in combat.

Be cautious, my young Padawan. By that logic, since a man with a SAM can shoot down an aircraft, and an aircraft can napalm an entire village, a man with a SAM can napalm an entire village.

[Next of Kin]

Gandalf was able to fight a Baalrog to a draw, we can infer that Gandalf also has such powers.

I always thought that Gandalf broke the bridge of Khazad-dum and thus, doomed himself and the balrog to plummet to whatever lied below.

[Master of Ossus]

Gandalf is tremendously powerful, and from the power of Baalrogs and Nazgul we can divine the approximate power of a wizard in combat.

Be cautious, my young Padawan. By that logic, since a man with a SAM can shoot down an aircraft, and an aircraft can napalm an entire village, a man with a SAM can napalm an entire village.

Hmmm. I guess you are right, Darth Wong, but Gandalf the Grey showed the ability to take on several powerful creatures when he fought off the Nine. I see no reason why Gandalf the White would be unable to fight a group of smaller creatures.

On the other hand, in the Hobbit he did have to run away from wolves and Goblins. Darth Wong, I probably spoke too soon.

[Master of Ossus]

Gandalf was able to fight a Baalrog to a draw, we can infer that Gandalf also has such powers.

I always thought that Gandalf broke the bridge of Khazad-dum and thus, doomed himself and the balrog to plummet to whatever lied below.

That part of the book has always been a bit unclear to me. He seems to have broken the Bridge, but it also appears that he almost escaped. I don't think he was dooming himself, so much as he was attempting to kill his enemies (and prevent the peons from catching the Fellowship), while at the same time killing the Balrog. Symbolically, though the passage would make more sense if he did sacrifice himself. And he might have been hoping that the Valar would do what they did. I don't know. I shall ponder this.

[LordShaithis]

What happens if Dooku finds the Ring?

[Crown]

Then a new dark lord there is!

[Master of Ossus]

Dooku would run the table, if he got the Ring. Remember, the Ring grants powers according to the power of its bearer. Dooku is already extremely powerful, and the Ring would make vastly stronger. Even Boromir, with the Ring, believed that he would be capable of taking on Sauron without it. Dooku is obviously a tougher cookie than Boromir. Dooku would be able to conquer all of Middle Earth.

[lgot]

Dooku would use the ring and probally fall for Sauron's tricks with some time...

I think that is very hard to compare a world created by some entities singing and the SW universe...If you go to Middleearth, things would not make much sense, because legends and myths are the realities, well descript in books like Simarillion. Even in the third age it was a world where Demigods and Gods still have interference in the world, so not much would make sense...
But Sauron do not die. One form is destroyed - The dark sword dude for example - other returns with time - the eye for example. His bigger magic is not fight or orcs, but subterfuge. He would seduce his enemies, not fight with them. So a battle of him and the Emperor would be a battle of will, not magical bums and bams. One would chat here, a little here, a little there. I think in the end Sauron will won. Not easily or anything, but Its possible.
Now lets team up Yoda and Gandalf against the Emperor and the leader of the nine...