Anyone notice that General Grevious's henchmen kick ass?

[Lukedanieljames]

Did you even see the toon, Lukedanieljames? Not only is it not a contradiction, it doesn't even look like one. Shaak Ti was on the defensive for the majority of the fight, being heavily outnumbered combined with the short reach of her lightsaber compared to the polearm electrostaffs.

I thought of a great analogy for this, if Mike tyson walked into a highschool, and picked a fight with a teenager and he knocked him out in 36 seconds, you'd take a double glance at the teenager and think "damn he was pretty good to standup to mike tyson for that long" then a week later you were reading some tabloid and it says "EVANDER HOLYFIELD TAKES ON 20 TEENAGERS, AND KNOCKOUTS 4 OF THEM!!" You would know it was bullshit. Being on the defensive or not, that point is irrelevant. There is just no way Anakin and Obi-wan took 36 seconds to kill the magnaguard and then a lesser form of canon claims that another jedi can take-on 20 of them and kill 4 in the process. The only way this could be is if it was a contradiction.

When Grievous reached the bunker, he ordered the MagnaGuards to withdraw, and Shaak Ti wasn't exactly in great shape then.

should have been dead.

I imagine that the average Jedi would be conscious of the fact that if they turned into the whirling dervishes of death that allows them to dispatch larger groups they've been shown to be capable of dispatching, it could result in, shall we say, unacceptable collateral damage.

on board the bridge of the Invisible Hand collateral damage would have been exactly what they wanted. Help them get off the ship, destroy the internal sensor controls, tractor beams, you name it.

[Lukedanieljames]

Two different Jedi in two different situations taking different amounts of time to destroy a Magnaguard is NOT a contradiction in canon.

Also the machinery tactic in Obi's fight wasn't available in the bridge fight. He did the most efficient depatchment for the situation. About the duration of the fights, it looked to be barely over 10 swings to dispatch the guards. Obi backs off to get abit of room and easily beheads one, then when it's still alive the droid parries maybe 5 shots before it's guard breaks down and is finished. Anakin the same deal, slowly backs away towards Palps to a bigger area all the while looking like there's no threat to him, seemed to me Anakin and Obi needed a few secs to feel them out then went in for easy kills.

One quick note about the Obi kill, he actually pins a Magna guard's staff down against a console with his sabre before doing the head swipe blow, another feat of strength from Kenobi.

Ok thats now how it went at all, I just watched it to confirm, the Magnaguards after Grievous yells "crush them" they go and attack immediately, anakin actually was backing up, the magnaguard was putting pressure on him, it took so many attempts by anakin to kill him that it was close to 30 strikes that were deflected, now anakin might have been backing up naturally, but the point is, the pressure was on, no letup to breath or dance. it wasn't 10 lightsabre strikes, not by a long shot

[Lukedanieljames]

and to add, if the jedi were truely controlling the fight and holding back, why the hell was obiwan going in the OPPOSITE direction of palpy? the magnadroid forced him in the other direction across the bridge. he should have, if he was able too, according to your logic (protect palpy) should have been going towards palpy, but he was forced in the other direciton!

[Lord Revan]

novelization is quite clear that by this they've abandoned the idea of leaving the Invisible Hand (apart from with an escape pod), so clearing the bridge was also a goal.

the IG-100 series are powerfull opponents and should repected but their cost (while not that stellar) makes undesireble for frontline use.

[Ryushikaze]

See, now that I can understand- they're deemed cost ineffective, like the Prototype TIE Vader used in ANH, superior in performance, but just not enough to warrant mass production frontline use.

Though a faint memory at the back of my mind is reminding me that it was mentioned that it was Grievous's guards, not the IG-100's in general that cost ridiculously much? If such is the case, would it not be simpler to assume that the Phryyk alloy staffs they carried were the reason for the cost, given the rarity of phryyk? Not a perfect explanation, but It would at least explain why such hyperbolic terms were used.

[Cykeisme]

Did you even see the toon, Lukedanieljames? Not only is it not a contradiction, it doesn't even look like one. Shaak Ti was on the defensive for the majority of the fight, being heavily outnumbered combined with the short reach of her lightsaber compared to the polearm electrostaffs.

I thought of a great analogy for this, if Mike tyson walked into a highschool, and picked a fight with a teenager and he knocked him out in 36 seconds, you'd take a double glance at the teenager and think "damn he was pretty good to standup to mike tyson for that long" then a week later you were reading some tabloid and it says "EVANDER HOLYFIELD TAKES ON 20 TEENAGERS, AND KNOCKOUTS 4 OF THEM!!" You would know it was bullshit. Being on the defensive or not, that point is irrelevant. There is just no way Anakin and Obi-wan took 36 seconds to kill the magnaguard and then a lesser form of canon claims that another jedi can take-on 20 of them and kill 4 in the process. The only way this could be is if it was a contradiction.

You thought that was a great analogy?

Obi-Wan and Anakin were engaging MagnaGuards for the first time. They needed some time to feel them out before annihilating them. Shaak Ti had already been fighting them in smaller numbers earlier on.

Plus, even if I hadn't watched either show, I could hypothesize that it isn't a contradiction because, say, MagnaGuards are stronger defensively than offensively. It took the two heroes of the Republic over 30 seconds each to destroy them, while Shaak Ti stood up for a few minutes to kill a few out of a crowd. The point is, MagnaGuards suck at penetrating a Jedi's defenses. They practically can't.

When Grievous reached the bunker, he ordered the MagnaGuards to withdraw, and Shaak Ti wasn't exactly in great shape then.

should have been dead.

In your unique opinion.

[Lukedanieljames]

Obi-Wan and Anakin were engaging MagnaGuards for the first time. They needed some time to feel them out before annihilating them. Shaak Ti had already been fighting them in smaller numbers earlier on.

thats only your opinion, not backed up by any facts. It is a contradiction.

Plus, even if I hadn't watched either show, I could hypothesize that it isn't a contradiction because, say, MagnaGuards are stronger defensively than offensively.

you have no evidence of this, your putting together a theory that would help explain the differences without a shred of proof, more likely a contradiction.

It took the two heroes of the Republic over 30 seconds each to destroy them, while Shaak Ti stood up for a few minutes to kill a few out of a crowd. The point is, MagnaGuards suck at penetrating a Jedi's defenses. They practically can't.

an enormous guess without any facts to back it up, back to the beginning, it is a contradiction between a lower and higher canon source.

In your unique opinion.

based on how we saw obi and anakin dealing with these guards i doubt they could take on 20.

And to add, how was my analogy not relevant?

[Lukedanieljames]

See, now that I can understand- they're deemed cost ineffective, like the Prototype TIE Vader used in ANH, superior in performance, but just not enough to warrant mass production frontline use.

Though a faint memory at the back of my mind is reminding me that it was mentioned that it was Grievous's guards, not the IG-100's in general that cost ridiculously much? If such is the case, would it not be simpler to assume that the Phryyk alloy staffs they carried were the reason for the cost, given the rarity of phryyk? Not a perfect explanation, but It would at least explain why such hyperbolic terms were used.

To my knowledge, the IG-100's were all the same price, the only difference is that Grievous decided to train them himself, having their memories wiped before delivery, however there is no evidence to suggest his training was superior to the 'default' training, as the guards in the EU attacking TI were also his. Going back to what I have said before, its an enormous contradiction in abilities

[Civil War Man]

on board the bridge of the Invisible Hand collateral damage would have been exactly what they wanted. Help them get off the ship, destroy the internal sensor controls, tractor beams, you name it.

Do you just not get it? By collateral damage, that includes things you don't want destroyed, like perhaps the chief executive of the nation you are fighting for, who just happens to be standing in close proximity to the fight.

Also, if you just decide to go galavanting across the bridge destroying every console in your path, the probability of the ship doing something you don't want it to do (while you're still in it) increases rather quickly.

and to add, if the jedi were truely controlling the fight and holding back, why the hell was obiwan going in the OPPOSITE direction of palpy? the magnadroid forced him in the other direction across the bridge. he should have, if he was able too, according to your logic (protect palpy) should have been going towards palpy, but he was forced in the other direciton!

Or, maybe, Obi-Wan and Anakin just happened to coordinate so Anakin would move to free the Chancellor from the droids, while Obi-Wan would make it so the two of them weren't drawing every single combatant in the area towards Palpatine.

A melee fight isn't all about destroying everything you can in as short a period of time as possible. A significant percentage of a duel involves maneuvering your opponent into a position where you have the most advantage. Keep in mind that once Obi-Wan and Anakin destroyed the Magnaguards facing them, and the Chancellor was not in danger (relatively speaking), General Grevious quickly found himself caught on a walkway between two hostile Jedi. In that situation, Grevious determined that the safest way for him to go was out into fucking space.

thats only your opinion, not backed up by any facts. It is a contradiction.

Says the person who's been posting little more than opinion. Your argument basically amounts to "it took Obi-Wan this much time to defeat a Magnaguard. I'm going to ignore all circumstances of that fight except for the duration and say that any significant difference in a different scenario, regardless of source, is invalid."

an enormous guess without any facts to back it up, back to the beginning, it is a contradiction between a lower and higher canon source.

IT IS NOT A FUCKING CONTRADICTION BECAUSE YOU DON'T LIKE IT. THEY ARE TWO SEPARATE AND INDEPENDENT EVENTS.

Seriously, how many times do we have to fucking spell it out for you before it gets through your skull? A contradiction in canon would be if a book said Obi-Wan defeated 3 Magnaguards on the bridge of the Invisible Hand. Unless you have a higher canon source that says the Jedi who defeated 20 Magnaguards didn't defeat that many, feel free to shut the fuck up about your imaginary contradictions.

In your unique opinion.

based on how we saw obi and anakin dealing with these guards i doubt they could take on 20.

As Cyke said, in your opinion. And guess what? Unless your name is George Lucas, your opinion means jack shit when it comes to determining the capabilities of a Jedi.

[Lukedanieljames]

Do you just not get it? By collateral damage, that includes things you don't want destroyed, like perhaps the chief executive of the nation you are fighting for, who just happens to be standing in close proximity to the fight.

ya right, so a jedi would lose control of what his lightsabre is doing and would slash through palpy or a person who they didn't want too? Prove it.

Also, if you just decide to go galavanting across the bridge destroying every console in your path, the probability of the ship doing something you don't want it to do (while you're still in it) increases rather quickly.

anakin could pilot the damn thing, he was pressing buttons on consols on the way down, and told obiwan to lower flaps when they were coming down into the atmosphere, so even obiwan knew what was what on the bridge, your telling me they couldn't pick and choose what they wanted to slash? they aren't fucking monkey's swinging clubs for fuck sakes, they are jedi, they aren't going to cut something they don't want too.

Or, maybe, Obi-Wan and Anakin just happened to coordinate so Anakin would move to free the Chancellor from the droids, while Obi-Wan would make it so the two of them weren't drawing every single combatant in the area towards Palpatine.

prove it, i'm using numbers, your guessing thats what they wanted to do, prove they were coordinating their attack.

A melee fight isn't all about destroying everything you can in as short a period of time as possible. A significant percentage of a duel involves maneuvering your opponent into a position where you have the most advantage. Keep in mind that once Obi-Wan and Anakin destroyed the Magnaguards facing them, and the Chancellor was not in danger (relatively speaking), General Grevious quickly found himself caught on a walkway between two hostile Jedi. In that situation, Grevious determined that the safest way for him to go was out into fucking space.

no...rule number 1 in a lightsabre fight 1. stop from getting killed, EVERYTHING else is secondary, if they die, so does palpy, and so do a billion people when that thing smacks into the planet. Knicking a few controls was not a big deal if they KNEW they were the only thing standing in between a few deaths and a million! As for jumping down beside Grievous on either side, there was a 50% chance they'd jump down on the same side or on opposite, since there is only two options for where they'd be on the walkway with him. You have no idea where they would have jumped down if anakin or obiwan did anything different.

Says the person who's been posting little more than opinion. Your argument basically amounts to "it took Obi-Wan this much time to defeat a Magnaguard. I'm going to ignore all circumstances of that fight except for the duration and say that any significant difference in a different scenario, regardless of source, is invalid."

YOUR MAKING UP SHIT!! your making up they were planning it!
they jedi on the fucking bridge had to stay alive, that was rule number 1, if they died, so did palpy, so don't fucking say they were holding back or circumstances let them 'take it easy' on the fucking magnaguards, jesus fuck.

they did everything they could to kill those magnaguards, infact anakin allowed the magnaguard to back him up 12 feet, CLOSER to palpy, why not kill the droid in a microsecond, and then deal with the 2 robots on palpy, instead of taking 30+ seconds to take him down?? Doesn't make any fucking sense.

IT IS NOT A FUCKING CONTRADICTION BECAUSE YOU DON'T LIKE IT. THEY ARE TWO SEPARATE AND INDEPENDENT EVENTS.

holy jesus christ,
if specific debates it would have a bearing, but when 2 top ranked jedi take 30+ seconds to takeout a magnaguard when there top priority was to live or the rest die, and then ANOTHER jedi who was in the same damn situation took on 20, thats a FUCKING CLEAR CONTRADICTION UNTIL YOU PROVE OTHERWISE

Seriously, how many times do we have to fucking spell it out for you before it gets through your skull? A contradiction in canon would be if a book said Obi-Wan defeated 3 Magnaguards on the bridge of the Invisible Hand.

thats not the ONLY type of contradiction

xwing over endor gets blasted apart by a LTL, but in an EU book an xwing takes a LTL right to the canopy and survives, doesn't matter if it was a different fucking battle or different fucking xwing, it's a contradiction!! it doesn't have to be the same person!

As Cyke said, in your opinion. And guess what? Unless your name is George Lucas, your opinion means jack shit when it comes to determining the capabilities of a Jedi.

ok this is what you have to prove

1. that obiwan and anakin were planning their seperation attack
2. that obiwan and anakin had to 'figure out' the magnaguards before they sliced and diced them
3. that obiwan and anakin were taking it 'easy' on them not to damage any other bridge stuff at the risk of getting killed and killing palpy along with them

if you can prove all those things, then I will conceed otherwise, we'll play a numbers game, not a guessing game

[Darwin]

Shaak-ti took on 20 magnaguards by constantly giving ground. She was on the defensive, and it's simply that the numbers of opponents she was facing and them getting in each others way somewhat allowed her to kill a few while retreating. Also note that at the end of this, Shaak-ti was beat all to hell and completely worn out.

I have no doubt that if they had the room to do so and no other factors like defending the chancellor and this being their first time facing the magnaguards, that not only could Anakin and Obi have taken the bodyguards down embarrassingly quickly, but they probably could have individually defeated the 20-magnaguard mob that nearly killed Shaak-ti,Obi-wan through his Form III mastery and striking only from an advantageous position and Anakin through a brutal offense and raw power. The difficulties that they had with the guards on the IH's bridge wouldn't be repeated if they faced the same kind of droid again.

Grievous's bodyguards were only meant to delay the heroes, and they did this wonderfully. The general was silly to stick around.

[Cykeisme]

Plus, even if I hadn't watched either show, I could hypothesize that it isn't a contradiction because, say, MagnaGuards are stronger defensively than offensively.

you have no evidence of this, your putting together a theory that would help explain the differences without a shred of proof, more likely a contradiction.

YOU FUCKING RETARDED PIECE OF MORON SHIT. Do you KNOW what the FUCKING SCIENTIFIC PROCESS IS?

My hypothesis fucking FITS THE OBSERVED evidence, doesn't it? The fucking Magnas are totally incompetent at hitting Jedi, and when they do, the Jedi often resist the damage. However, the long electrostaffs foil lightsaber attacks with some regularity, which is why Shaak Ti appropriated one.

Do you even KNOW WHAT A CONTRADICTION IS?!

ARGHHHH!!!
HOW do you SDnet seniors put up with people like this?!!

[Cykeisme]

I have no doubt that if they had the room to do so and no other factors like defending the chancellor and this being their first time facing the magnaguards, that not only could Anakin and Obi have taken the bodyguards down embarrassingly quickly, but they probably could have individually defeated the 20-magnaguard mob that nearly killed Shaak-ti,Obi-wan through his Form III mastery and striking only from an advantageous position and Anakin through a brutal offense and raw power. The difficulties that they had with the guards on the IH's bridge wouldn't be repeated if they faced the same kind of droid again.

Absolutely.
If Anakin or Obi-Wan were in Shaak-Ti's place, guarding the Chancellor through the Coruscant city chase, the battle in the transit tunnel would have ended with every single one of those MagnaGuards lying in pieces.

[Doctor Doom]

ya right, so a jedi would lose control of what his lightsabre is doing and would slash through palpy or a person who they didn't want too? Prove it.

Watch the fight scene on Mustafar between Obi-Wan and Anakin. Collateral damage is caused to the control panels in the control room, which is much less confined an area then the bridge of Grievous' ship.

anakin could pilot the damn thing, he was pressing buttons on consols on the way down, and told obiwan to lower flaps when they were coming down into the atmosphere, so even obiwan knew what was what on the bridge, your telling me they couldn't pick and choose what they wanted to slash? they aren't fucking monkey's swinging clubs for fuck sakes, they are jedi, they aren't going to cut something they don't want too.

See previous. Control panels were damaged on Mustafar, which caused the collapse of the shield protecting the facility from the lava. This drastically changed the nature of the fight and quite nearly got both Jedi killed, and in the end allowed for Obi-Wan's final victory over Anakin.

prove it, i'm using numbers, your guessing thats what they wanted to do, prove they were coordinating their attack.

The novelization specifically states that Obi-Wan during this battle was completely "in tune with the Force." That is, the Force itself was guiding his actions, not his mind. Therefore, unless the Force is incompetent, the logical conclusion is that the attack WAS coordinated. This fits all of the evidence, unlike your theory.

no...rule number 1 in a lightsabre fight 1. stop from getting killed, EVERYTHING else is secondary, if they die, so does palpy, and so do a billion people when that thing smacks into the planet. Knicking a few controls was not a big deal if they KNEW they were the only thing standing in between a few deaths and a million! As for jumping down beside Grievous on either side, there was a 50% chance they'd jump down on the same side or on opposite, since there is only two options for where they'd be on the walkway with him. You have no idea where they would have jumped down if anakin or obiwan did anything different.

See previous. Obi-Wan was being guided by the Force during this battle. While Anakin was not being guided by the Force, it is safe to assume that he at remained concious of Obi-Wan's actions during the fight and acted appropriately.

YOUR MAKING UP SHIT!! your making up they were planning it!
they jedi on the fucking bridge had to stay alive, that was rule number 1, if they died, so did palpy, so don't fucking say they were holding back or circumstances let them 'take it easy' on the fucking magnaguards, jesus fuck.

See previous.

they did everything they could to kill those magnaguards, infact anakin allowed the magnaguard to back him up 12 feet, CLOSER to palpy

Interesting that you contradict yourself. Earlier in this debate you were complaining that Obi-Wan allowed the Magnaguard to back him AWAY from Palpatine, and now you are complaining that Anakin went CLOSER to Palpatine. Don't move the goalposts on us, it makes it difficult to debate you. Please try not to contradict yourself. Especially in an argument about contradictions. Makes you look bad.

if specific debates it would have a bearing, but when 2 top ranked jedi take 30+ seconds to takeout a magnaguard when there top priority was to live or the rest die, and then ANOTHER jedi who was in the same damn situation took on 20, thats a FUCKING CLEAR CONTRADICTION UNTIL YOU PROVE OTHERWISE

Outright lie. It was a different Jedi in a completely different situation, as multiple people have displayed earlier in this thread. I won't bother repeating it, as it obviously didn't get through your skull the first dozen times.

xwing over endor gets blasted apart by a LTL, but in an EU book an xwing takes a LTL right to the canopy and survives, doesn't matter if it was a different fucking battle or different fucking xwing, it's a contradiction!! it doesn't have to be the same person!

This doesn't necessarily have to be a contradiction. The X-Wing over Endor could have been damaged or the shields could have been oriented in a different direction (which is possible, by the way, so please don't try and dispute that point), which is very likely considering that it was in the middle of a very heated space battle. Unless you can prove that the X-Wing in both situations were undamaged and had the shields oriented in the direction that the LTL was fired from and that the LTL was being fired at the same power level (remember LTLs can be scaled up or down in power output), there is no contradiction.

1. that obiwan and anakin were planning their seperation attack

They weren't. The Force was. Read the novelization.

2. that obiwan and anakin had to 'figure out' the magnaguards before they sliced and diced them

They did. It was the first time they had faced such opponents. On top of which, the Magnaguards have been shown to be stronger defensively against Jedi then offensively. That is, Magnaguards have a tough time landing blows on Jedi, but have a relatively easy time evading the blows of the Jedi, largely due to the nature of their staffs and superhuman reflexes.

3. that obiwan and anakin were taking it 'easy' on them not to damage any other bridge stuff at the risk of getting killed and killing palpy along with them

Watch the fight scene on Mustafar.

[Shadowtraveler]

Well, if you think about it, it's more like they're supposed to hold off any attackers while Grievious makes a clean getaway (as much as he loves killing people, even he can't always afford to waste time).

Granted, they're not great against some of the more powerful Jedi out there, but that's hardly a fault considering.

[Isolder74]

Well if your watch she never fights more that 4 at a time

[The Silence and I]

PART I:

I find I'm agreeing with the idea that the guards are 'all that' and more. Something that was briefly tickled on and then ignored is the difference in weapons used: light sabre verses quarter staff. Jedi defenders are quick to point out the Jedi can't go all out and such because the bridge is cramped and they risk damaging a system useful to them or whatever. Well, and I really don't want to come accross as rude (but let fall what will), ever try to use a quarter staff in a cramped space? Ever tried to think about using one? If not, try now.
..
..
Done? Great. The quarter staff, to be effective, MUST have a very large 'personal space' to work with. Granted, the lightsabre needs some space too, but the difference is enourmous. The Jedi have to maneuver a 3 foot stick mostly in front of them and not hit anything too important on a cramped bridge. Whoopi. Impressive. I'll wave a small flag for them.

The droids have to wave a roughly 6 foot stick around, half in front, half behind them. And unlike a lightsabre, even if they didn't care what they hit, the staffs cannot go through the obstacles. A quarter staff is only effective when given enough space to express itself. Don't tread on its dreams people.

If the Jedi are not going all out for fear of hitting a console, remember that the droids must also avoid the consoles, or lose a head (hey--that happened didn't it?) and it is very much harder for the droids to avoid those consoles due to the respective natures of a lightsabre and a quarter staff.

For those that require a summary (I really am trying not to sound like a jerk. Wait, I lied. I guess I am in a lousy mood. Not enough caffine or something) what that is trying to make evident is the absolute truth of the matter, and that truth is the droids MUST be fighting at a greater disadvantage than the Jedi. This conclusion cannot be ignored, or disproven. If anyone can do that, I'll give them an electronic cookie (I'll photoshop it myself).

PART II:

So... what does that mean? Can a Jedi take on 20 of them, destroy a few and generally kick their metal buttock servos? I'm inclined to say that if it takes an offensively oriented Jedi like Anikin--who's skill is literally second to a very small number in the galaxy--some 30-ish seconds to kill such a droid while said droid is fighting at a greater offensive and defensive disadvantage than him I'm going to side with...


(wait for it)


...NO!!

PART III:

Of course, concerning PART II I'm sure it makes more sense to certain people to dance and weave through explanations that give the Jedi on the bridge motivations to tip toe through the fight or somesuch. I'll side with parsimony myself. But whatever others feel makes more sense to them in PART II, I am rather confident no good reply to PART I will be forthcoming. After all, whatever bizzare motivations or circumstances can be put on the table, the point of PART I stands--the droids were at a greater disadvantage than the Jedi.

I give the Manga Droids a respectful golf clap.

[Lord Revan]

regrardless what that final result bridge fight debate is, it's far declearing that the IG-100 series was so kickass that it would have made a good replacement for B1/B2 force the CIS used (especially since it would deployed in fewer numbers) and I'm still waiting for evidence for Clone/Storm Troopers being less intelligent then IG-100 Series

[Lukedanieljames]

YOU FUCKING RETARDED PIECE OF MORON SHIT. Do you KNOW what the FUCKING SCIENTIFIC PROCESS IS?

yes thank you, I was lectured in grade 7 regarding it.

My hypothesis fucking FITS THE OBSERVED evidence,

you have 1 hypothesis, don't pretend it is the only one that fits, infact yours seem to be pulling at strings at every turn. You have gone into great detail and stories of 'why' the jedi did poorly against the magnas on the bridge. Where as my hypothesis, is simple and crips. The magna's were decent fighters. Complication != accurate.

doesn't it? The fucking Magnas are totally incompetent at hitting Jedi, and when they do, the Jedi often resist the damage. However, the long electrostaffs foil lightsaber attacks with some regularity, which is why Shaak Ti appropriated one.

Both the jedi were moving backward, and if you actually watch the damn fight (not sure if you have lately) you can see that the Magnas routinely attempt to attack the jedi, forcing them back.

Do you even KNOW WHAT A CONTRADICTION IS?!

its hard to prove it to you when you makeup circumstances that you believe are happening.

HOW do you SDnet seniors put up with people like this?!!

are you crying for help? Getting frusterated because your theory is so complicated it takes 15 re-reads to remember it all?

[Lukedanieljames]

[quote="Doctor Doom"
Watch the fight scene on Mustafar between Obi-Wan and Anakin. Collateral damage is caused to the control panels in the control room, which is much less confined an area then the bridge of Grievous' ship.
[/quote]

fighting a magna droid and fighting another powerful jedi are on two seperate levels.

See previous. Control panels were damaged on Mustafar, which caused the collapse of the shield protecting the facility from the lava. This drastically changed the nature of the fight and quite nearly got both Jedi killed, and in the end allowed for Obi-Wan's final victory over Anakin.

we don't know what would have happened if the instruments were not touched, the fight could have ended sooner or longer. Regardless, fighting another jedi who has a lightsabre is much different than fighting a magnaguard.

The novelization specifically states that Obi-Wan during this battle was completely "in tune with the Force." That is, the Force itself was guiding his actions, not his mind. Therefore, unless the Force is incompetent, the logical conclusion is that the attack WAS coordinated. This fits all of the evidence, unlike your theory.

"in tune with the Force" != the force is creating a strategy to adopt by Obi to take-over the bridge, while at the same time, realizing (the force that is) that anakin is not using the force to guide him and that palpy is in danger, AND that grievous is a danger. The term is loosely worded.

See previous. Obi-Wan was being guided by the Force during this battle. While Anakin was not being guided by the Force, it is safe to assume that he at remained concious of Obi-Wan's actions during the fight and acted appropriately.

this is where the entire theory falls apart on your side. So both anakin and obi-wan were taking a different approach relative to how they were using the Force. Yet both of them seemed to take the exact or close to the exact amount of time to destroy the magnaguard. Why in the hell would the FORCE want obi-want to take 36 damn seconds to kill the thing? Why would anakin who WASN'T using the force want to take that long? It isn't syncronized swimming!

Interesting that you contradict yourself. Earlier in this debate you were complaining that Obi-Wan allowed the Magnaguard to back him AWAY from Palpatine, and now you are complaining that Anakin went CLOSER to Palpatine. Don't move the goalposts on us, it makes it difficult to debate you. Please try not to contradict yourself. Especially in an argument about contradictions. Makes you look bad.

I am not contradicting myself at all, i'm saying its stupid for obi-wan to have moved away from palpy, he had no idea if there were other droids coming up from behind the bridge, maybe 20 more magnaguards, regardless he had no idea, proof of this is when anakin and obiwan backed into an elevator without looking and there were 10 shitty droids in there, it surprised them.

Outright lie. It was a different Jedi in a completely different situation, as multiple people have displayed earlier in this thread. I won't bother repeating it, as it obviously didn't get through your skull the first dozen times.

Those things would matter if it was say, anakin compared to a 13 year old padwan. But its not the case! Anakin is the one who took 30+ seconds, and obiwan was the one that took 30+ seconds, and then another jedi takes on 20 of them, killing a few of them in the process.? It doesn't matter if she was 'giving ground', she was still doing battle with them,

This doesn't necessarily have to be a contradiction. The X-Wing over Endor could have been damaged or the shields could have been oriented in a different direction (which is possible, by the way, so please don't try and dispute that point), which is very likely considering that it was in the middle of a very heated space battle. Unless you can prove that the X-Wing in both situations were undamaged and had the shields oriented in the direction that the LTL was fired from and that the LTL was being fired at the same power level (remember LTLs can be scaled up or down in power output), there is no contradiction.

that was a lot of fluff for nothing. Anakin and obiwan weren't injured, the other jedi wasn't injured (and if the jedi was, oh god...even more of a contradiction) we know this already, so all the mention of shields this and that, i made a simple analogy, and you tried to turn the analogy into something that isn't relevant to WHY I made the analogy in the first place. I know you were trying to show that circumstances do take a toll, but in this case there isn't any proof that they were holding back, and why the force would WANT obi-want to take along time, makes no sense.

They weren't. The Force was. Read the novelization.

no you said he was in tune with the force, if you can give me an exact quote of the novel saying that the force was strategizing, then yes I will conceed that point, if it just says it was guiding his actions, that could as easily mean his lightsabre moves.

They did. It was the first time they had faced such opponents.

Irrelevant, relative to your answer the FORCE should have KNOWN how to fight them. So thats not helping you. However it fits my theory perfectly, the magnaguards were just damn good. Obi-wan and Anakin had seen so much combat through the clonewars, studied their opponents, practiced lightsabre form, fought other jedi, your telling me that a single magnaguard was going to be trouble, especially if the magna sucked dick like you are suggesting? It doesn't make sense.

On top of which, the Magnaguards have been shown to be stronger defensively against Jedi then offensively.

That is a mute point, regardless of WHERE the strengths of the magnaguard lay, they still take time to destroy and pose a threat to the jedi, even jedi make mistakes.

Watch the fight scene on Mustafar.

force user vs force user != force user vs robot

[Crazedwraith]

0k, where is the contradiction between:

1) 1 on 1, Magna vs Jedi. Result: the magna quickly lose.

and

2) 1 Jedi vs a dozen Magnas. Result: stalemate. The magna's disengage after a couple of minutes max. The jedi was clearly taxed.

I'm not seeing it.

Edit: added proper capitalisations.

[Lukedanieljames]

regrardless what that final result bridge fight debate is, it's far declearing that the IG-100 series was so kickass that it would have made a good replacement for B1/B2 force the CIS used (especially since it would deployed in fewer numbers) and I'm still waiting for evidence for Clone/Storm Troopers being less intelligent then IG-100 Series

that is definately not the debate, I had no opinion on these things, infact I would rather have mass produced soldiers, i started the thread to show that magnaguards are very good.

[Lord Revan]

Against a Jedi "redshirt" a Magnaguard could quite possibly win (Anakin, Obi-wan and Shaak Ti are all in the top 10 as far as Jedi go (Shaak Ti and Obi-wan Kenobi are Jedi council members and it wasn't lack of skill that prevented Anakin's membership to the council pre-ROTS).

and Lukedanieljames you've not answered me why did you assume that IG-100 Magnaguards were more intelligent then Clone/Storm Troopers.

[Lukedanieljames]

They'd be so much better and more intelligent

I respectfully withdraw this claim, as the price of each unit is too high and I have no evidence to their intelligence.

[The Silence and I]

0k, where is the contradiction between:

1) 1 on 1, Magna vs Jedi. Result: the magna quickly lose.

and

2) 1 Jedi vs a dozen Magnas. Result: stalemate. The magna's disengage after a couple of minutes max. The jedi was clearly taxed.

I'm not seeing it.

Edit: added proper capitalisations.

I'm going to point out here that you have not outlined the discussion at all.

It should be:

1) 1 on 1, Manga vs Jedi. Result, the droids, fighting at a disadvantage relative to the Jedi, are hard to take down; even attack minded Anikin takes approximately 1/2 a minute to destroy his. The Jedi have zero reason to play nice, and some compelling reasons not to.

and

2) 1 Jedi vs a dozen Magnas. Result: stalemate. The magna's disengage after a couple of minutes max. The jedi was clearly taxed.

Do you see the problem now? If one droid can defend against Anikin for 30 seconds despite having limited maneuvering room for its staff then it is somewhat silly to think that any one Jedi on Anikin or Kenobi's level or less can do battle with so many of these things without, uh, dying. Quickly. Unless of course the droids are only defensive, with crappy attacks, but frankly, a quarter staff is an offensive weapon first, defensive second. It allows two attacks to a sword's one, and has greater reach and mass (yes, this is important here despite the massless lightsabres--more so possibly).

Imagine if you will, some dozen or so droids and one Jedi. The droids can only effectively engage the Jedi with four or less of them, lest they get too much in each others' way. Now, against 2 droids I can see a clever Jedi maneuvering to keep both droids facing her, and so prevent them from flanking. But against so many? All you need is one droid in front, being good at not dying, and one or two more at the sides/back, and you have a dead Jedi. The one in front is too skilled to ignore, to stop it from killing you requires most of your concentration, a Jedi cannot defend from so many angles for long.