Admiral Valdemar wrote:The terms adopted by both crowds are controversial in themselves. "Pro-life" basically paints anyone else as being "pro-death" by association. I'm "pro-life", but I also know that there are situations where terminating the pregnancy is mandatory since I don't view a woman's life as less than that of a nearly formed baby.
The key is to keep a rational view of this and not get clouded with emotions, easier said than done when you've just found you're becoming a father. A clear head is all that separates us from rabid pro-lifers who murder in the name of life.
For this reason "pro-life" is a lot different from "anti-choice" which seems to be far more accurate in describing the more rabid people who are opposed to abortion. I am pro-life in the sense that I don't want to see anyone die for any reason, generally speaking, but I am also pro-choice, for the reasons I gave intially.
The same people who will scream at and try to intimidate some unfortunate girl entering a abortion clinic, where are those "pro-lifers" when that girl needs help trying to raise a child she didn't plan to have, who can't afford having a child, for whatever reason?
Mobiboros wrote:My wife and I are expecting in early May.
You too?
Sorry about the earlier one. Though a well-written anti-abortion law would include the case of an actually-dead fetus, which I think everyone would agree on.
As for my views, my mother told me that the second time they had ultrasound on me, they needed to do amniocentesis. Thus, they needed to check my reaction to stimuli. If I approached them, they'd poke her on the side they wouldn't stick the needle in; if I ran away from them, they'd poke her on the side they do stick the needle in.
Well, when they poked her, I ran away, and then a few seconds later, probed back, feeling with my hands where that poke had been.
The most reasonable conclusion was that I was CURIOUS.
Considering that, I have to place the beginning of life pretty early, though not at the absolute beginning like most pro-lifers do.
Every sperm is not sacred.
An amniocentesis would most likely have taken place 15-20 weeks into the pregnacy before the cerebral cortex has started growing making curiosity rather unlikely.
At week 10? Tough one. I am a big supporter of quality of life, but with the prior loss I'm not sure I could make that decision. I know that's not a clear yes or no, but I can only say my wife and I would likely have many long talks before deciding.
Week ten is the first trimester, isn't it? This should be a relatively easy decision, at least compared to later abortions.
"If one needed proof that a guitar was more than wood and string, that a song was more than notes and words, and that a man could be more than a name and a few faded pictures, then Robert Johnson’s recordings were all one could ask for."
Col. Crackpot wrote:As many of you know my wife and I are expecting twins. Because of that fact, over the past few weeks I have been bombarded with baby magazines, baby books, pre natal heathcare books, etc. There are some absolutely phenominal pictures and articles on pre-natal development, and it's having an effect on me. I have always maintained a strong pro choice viewpont with regards to abortion. But damnit i can't help it.. i'm really having some second thoughts on the matter. Granted, there's not really much going on early in the in the first trimester, but once that little bugger starts growing... It's not just an emotional reaction, but a scientific one as well. By the second trimester they feel pain and respond to their mother's voice... I'm feeling really conflicted right now. Have any others among you been in this position?
I don't know about other people, but I've advocated cutting off the mother's right to an abortion after the second trimester based on the existence of higher brain activity in the fetus at that point for a while now.
And from the tone of your post, it sounds more like you yourself would never want your wife to have an abortion. I don't see anything in your post suggesting that you would deny abortion rights to others, just that you can't conceive of a situation in which one would want to exercise them.
Damien Sorresso
"Ever see what them computa bitchez do to numbas? It ain't natural. Numbas ain't supposed to be code, they supposed to quantify shit."
- The Onion
Durandal wrote:I don't know about other people, but I've advocated cutting off the mother's right to an abortion after the second trimester based on the existence of higher brain activity in the fetus at that point for a while now.
In most of the west 3rd trimester abortions are exceptionally rare and only performed when the mothers health is at risk or when the fetus is diagnosed very late on as suffering from severe medical conditions, would I be right in assuming that you'd still give women the right to abort in these circumstances higher brain activity in the fetus or no?
Week ten is the first trimester, isn't it? This should be a relatively easy decision, at least compared to later abortions.[/quote]
It is the first trimester, yes. And while I'd say it's easier to the decision later in abortion it still would be, for me and my wife, a very tough one even early on. But yes, there is a big gulf in development between week 10 and, say, week 28 or so. So yes, it would be an 'easier' decision but that doesn't make it an easy one.
(Or is there? I admit; I don't keep up much on such matters.)
Well, there's the "day-after" pill. There are side-effects, but I don't think it's killed anyone.
"I spit on metaphysics, sir."
"I pity the woman you marry." -Liberty
This is the guy they want to use to win over "young people?" Are they completely daft? I'd rather vote for a pile of shit than a Jesus freak social regressive.
Here's hoping that his political career goes down in flames and, hopefully, a hilarious gay sex scandal. -Tanasinn
You can't expect sodomy to ruin every conservative politician in this country. -Battlehymn Republic
Plekhanov wrote:An amniocentesis would most likely have taken place 15-20 weeks into the pregnacy before the cerebral cortex has started growing making curiosity rather unlikely.
It doesn't take much brain to be curious. Mice are sometimes curious.
That does of course raise the issue that such a child is not yet up to human standards of intelligence.
Plekhanov wrote:An amniocentesis would most likely have taken place 15-20 weeks into the pregnacy before the cerebral cortex has started growing making curiosity rather unlikely.
It doesn't take much brain to be curious.
It does however take considerably more brain than a foetus in the 15-20 week period possesses.
Mice are sometimes curious.
That does of course raise the issue that such a child is not yet up to human standards of intelligence.
A mouse has considerably more intelligence than a human foetus @ 20 weeks which has a brain so undeveloped the current consensus is it can't even feel pain never mind exhibit curiosity.
Durandal wrote:I don't know about other people, but I've advocated cutting off the mother's right to an abortion after the second trimester based on the existence of higher brain activity in the fetus at that point for a while now.
In most of the west 3rd trimester abortions are exceptionally rare and only performed when the mothers health is at risk or when the fetus is diagnosed very late on as suffering from severe medical conditions, would I be right in assuming that you'd still give women the right to abort in these circumstances higher brain activity in the fetus or no?
In the case of a threat to the mother's life, yes. Severe medical conditions is more of a gray area. If, at the second trimester, we consider the fetus a human being with the right to life, then it has a right to life, regardless of its medical condition. But I also don't think I'd blame parents who decided to abort a Down syndrome child, either. That is a very rocky part of morality.
Damien Sorresso
"Ever see what them computa bitchez do to numbas? It ain't natural. Numbas ain't supposed to be code, they supposed to quantify shit."
- The Onion
Overall, I'm very happy with the way Australia handles abortion - we have a progressive law that limits abortions to before the children can survive as premature births, and it's simply not the major issue it is in the US, apart from recent mutterings from the Christian Right. It was only when I began attending University that I even realised it is an issue in other parts of the world.
I do wish more people would consider the alternatives. Concern about your worthiness as a parent is one thing, but...
