David Brin Is Such A Wanker (Long)

[RThurmont]

David Brin is typical of a fairly large clique of absolutely sucky contemporary literary SF writers. Suffice it to say, Heinlein he is not.

[Patrick Degan]

What about the same fucktard who's always wanking about dolphin intelligence turning around and slagging Star Wars for "genetic determinism" because you can inherit Force powers?

It's pretty obvious that Brin can't form a logically consistent argument to save his life; his various screeds against Star Wars are nothing more than the jealous ravings of a writer who toils in relative obscurity and wishes people would notice him.

Basically a Robert Scott Anderson who managed to take out at least a little time to have something of a legitimate professional career on the side.

[Winston Blake]

What about the same fucktard who's always wanking about dolphin intelligence turning around and slagging Star Wars for "genetic determinism" because you can inherit Force powers?

It's pretty obvious that Brin can't form a logically consistent argument to save his life; his various screeds against Star Wars are nothing more than the jealous ravings of a writer who toils in relative obscurity and wishes people would notice him.

Basically a Robert Scott Anderson who managed to take out at least a little time to have something of a legitimate professional career on the side.

Based on his Salon article and a few clips i saw of him on a documentary once, he comes off as an asshat. However, apparently he's still an accomplished scifi writer, having won a bunch of awards including the Hugo and Nebula, and is a physics professor with a PhD in space science (does that mean astrophysics?). It seems that, like intelligence, people tend to be stupid in particular areas. Either that or the man gives a mighty good rimjob.

[Winston Blake]

Incidentally i've just found this article on LoTR.

Near the end:

Now ponder something that comes through even the party-line demonization of a crushed enemy. This clearcut and undeniable fact. Sauron's army was the one that included every species and race on Middle Earth, including all the despised colors of humanity, and all the lower classes.

Hm. Did they all leave their homes and march to war thinking "Oh, goody, let's go serve an evil dark lord"?

Or might they instead have thought they were the 'good guys', with a justifiable grievance worth fighting for, rebelling against an ancient, rigid, pyramid-shaped, feudal hierarchy topped by invader-alien elves and their Numenorean colonialist human lackeys?

Picture, for a moment, Sauron the Eternal Rebel, relentlessly maligned by the victors of the Ring War -- the royalists who control the bards and scribes (and movie-makers). Sauron, champion of the common Middle-Earther! Vanquished but still revered by the innumerable poor and oppressed who sit in their squalid huts, wary of the royal secret police with their magical spy-eyes, yet continuing to whisper stories, secretly dreaming and hoping that someday he will return... bringing more rings.

[Darth Wong]

So Darth Vader is irredeemably evil by virtue of having been standing next to Tarkin when Tarkin ordered the destruction of Alderaan during a civil war, but Sauron might be a good guy because he had coloured people working for him? Is this Brin clown for real?

[Jim Raynor]

Does this idiot have an e-mail address? Has anyone ever tried contacting him? If he were to ever respond, I'm sure the results would be hilarious.

[Spanky The Dolphin]

So Darth Vader is irredeemably evil by virtue of having been standing next to Tarkin when Tarkin ordered the destruction of Alderaan during a civil war, but Sauron might be a good guy because he had coloured people working for him? Is this Brin clown for real?

I was going to make a somewhat lengthy reply, but in the end it just leaves me absolutely speechless.

Seriously, what the fuck? The Devil can generate more sympathy than Sauron or Morgoth: they're probably one of the most ultimate forms of evil in modern fiction. Does Brin ever have even the remote iota of a fucking clue when he's talking about other peoples' properties?

[Stark]

That's inane. Is Brin suggesting that post-War of the Ring, Sauron intended setting up a more egalitarian regime, with room for all? Ridiculous. It's made clear in the book that even his servants hate and fear him: they fight because they're trapped in the Evil Empire, and if they stop one of the other groups will be sent to conquer them. And let's not forget the invincible, terrifying captains of Sauron - the corrupted, undead Nazgul. The orcs thought it was FUNNY when they heard the Witch King died!

I think it's hilarious that he ignores the part where Sauron wasn't fighting the power-structure of the West: he wanted to be at the top. His platform wasn't 'down with the nobles, underclasses against discrimination', it was 'I'm the fucking king n00bs'.

I simply want to know if he's deliberately distorting, or if he actually believes what he says.

[Lord Revan]

So Darth Vader is irredeemably evil by virtue of having been standing next to Tarkin when Tarkin ordered the destruction of Alderaan during a civil war, but Sauron might be a good guy because he had coloured people working for him? Is this Brin clown for real?

I was going to make a somewhat lengthy reply, but in the end it just leaves me absolutely speechless.

Seriously, what the fuck? The Devil can generate more sympathy than Sauron or Morgoth: they're probably one of the most ultimate forms of evil in modern fiction. Does Brin ever have even the remote iota of a fucking clue when he's talking about other peoples' properties?

after reading this I'm pretty certain of something, I suspected after reading Mike's hate mail page about him, he seems to have some kind of perverse hate against any writer (or other "story maker") that's more successful then him and will use really clear strawman version of their work to "prove" why his work is somehow better.

[Spanky The Dolphin]

Brin also seems to be forgetting that Sauron was destroyed at the end of the War, so there can be no such post-war situation. That and his armies weren't willfully recruited, but bred and corrupted into enslavement by him and his master since the Years of the Trees before the First Age: Tolkien has even said that the Orks are irredeemably evil because of their corruption by Morgoth.

And another thing, Brin is also so busy projecting Sauron into such a lovely-dovey anti-establisment revolutionary that he's also ignoring the fact that Sauron would have enslaved the distant, peaceful Shire, despite the fact that Hobbits make poor slave labour, simply out of pure vengeful, hateful malice, soley because a Hobbit found the One Ring. Sauron would rather see the Hobbits suffer under his cruel reign than have them live free in harmless obscurity.

And that's still skimming over Sauron's connection to Morgoth and Morgoth's role in the literature. Such manipulative ignorance on Brin's part. This is just mind-boggling.

[Vympel]

On that much we can all agree. But I think there's more to the Ring Wraiths. To me, they distill the classic Greek notion of hubris -- a concept that romantics often embrace -- the idea that pain and damnation await any mortal whose ambition aims too high. Don't try putting on the trappings or emblems or powers that rightfully belong to your betters. Above all, don't try to decipher and redistribute mysteries.

In other words, exactly the same morality tale preached in Star Wars.

The man's a fucking twit. I guess he forgot the whole part about how the Ring-Wraiths were already powerful men. What an idiot. His inability to comprehend fiction clearly does not end where Star Wars does.

His "response" to what he purports to be hundreds of emails attacking his bullshit about Star Wars is actually a series of points that are out and out bullshit- note that nowhere in the "response" does he refer to the point that the Jedi serve, not rule, the galaxy- I suppose we're supposed to believe that noone in the hundreds of emails he received pointed this out to him. What a tard.

[Ghost Rider]

The man knows how to blither.

That entire LoTR bit ends with

Heh.

All right, we don't have to go quite that far!

Here's a milder version. Those orcs and low-elves and dwarves and dark-skinned or proletarian men who fought for the Ringlord were fooled by Sauron's propaganda.

Fair enough. Even that slight variation adds flavor to an already-great tale, making you pity Sauron's dupes a little, even though you still cheer as they're slaughtered down to the last private and orcoral.

Come on folks, a little empathy.

Instead of railing against 'evil,' try to understand it. That's always been the best way to defeat it.

# # #

Am I pulling your leg? You bet! I don't take speculations about fictional villains quite that seriously.

My real point is much more general. It's this --

Don't just receive your adventures. Toy with them. Re-mold them in your mind! Keep asking "What if...?" It's how you get practice not just being a passive consumer, or critic, but a creative storyteller in your own right.

And remember this too -- enlightenment, science, democracy and equal opportunity are still the true rebels, reigning for just a few generations (and still imperfectly!) in one or two corners of the Earth, after elite chiefs, romantic bards and magicians dominated our ancestors for maybe half a million years.

Don't you think a little pride in that rebellion might be called for? A radical revolution-in-progress, still fresh and incomplete.

A rebellion that (among many other things) taught serfs like you to read so you can enjoy epic books and picture things different than they are.

One that makes vivid movies that cater to your taste for adventure.

One that, for all its imperfections, gave you a better chance than in some peasant village of old.

One that has a long way to go, but has at least turned our eyes around to face the future.

Self-critical almost to a fault, this culture may not be as romantic as those old kingdoms... but isn't it better?

You are heirs of the world's first true civilization, arising out of the first true revolution. Take some pride in it...

Let's keep enjoying kings and wizards. But also remember to keep them where they belong.

Where they can do little harm.

Where they entertain us.

In fantasies.

THE END

And really...no shit Sherlock.

[Darth Servo]

Let's keep enjoying kings and wizards. But also remember to keep them where they belong.

Where they can do little harm.

Where they entertain us.

In fantasies.

THE END

Its truly amazing that this clown thinks other sci-fi and fantasy writers are actually trying to remold society back into the days of feudalism.

[Mange]

I haven't been following what Mr. Brin has said about Star Wars since the Salon article (I don't read his books nor am I very interested in them or the person behind them), but I went to his site and read his AOTC comments and this caught my eye:

David Brin creates his own version of the dialogue in AOTC:

Minor nitpick... did anyone notice the repeated use of the phrase 'fire on the Federation starship!' and 'don't let the Federation starship get away!'

What are these guys -- Klingons?

A dig at Star Trek? What do you want, a monopoly? Hey, people have enjoyed 100 times as many hours of that universe as they have yours, George. Live with it.

What a load of crap! I didn't have the patience to read through his ramblings, but he did say that he liked the first part of the movie.

[Elfdart]

I love his dishonest weasel words. There are about 13 hours of Star Wars, which adds up to a half-season of Star Trek episodes. It's like some bozo bragging about coming in third in a marathon -out of three runners.

[Jim Raynor]

As if George Lucas is actually jealous of ST.

[Jalinth]

Seriously, what the fuck? The Devil can generate more sympathy than Sauron or Morgoth: they're probably one of the most ultimate forms of evil in modern fiction. Does Brin ever have even the remote iota of a fucking clue when he's talking about other peoples' properties?

I'd agree that Morgoth is worse than the Devil. He was always one of the Powers, unlike Satan who could at least argue he was oppressed by God. He went out of his way to wreck absolutely everything he could, and corrupt what he couldn't destroy outright. And after his fall, Sauron was his ultra-loyal and devoted servant. Who corrupted Saruman, helped destroy the dwarves, produced orcs by the score, drove the last Ruling Steward of Gondor insane, etc... Sauron as the Eternal Rebel? Eternal Dictator perhaps.

The background to the LOTR gives another cliche - don't judge a book by the cover. And Sauron (before the sinking of Numenor) apparently had a very fair cover - the same as Morgoth. During his prime, he could appear as good as a saint.

[Sidewinder]

I'll read more of his essays later-- I didn't have much time last night-- but from what I've already read, his "Down with the Establishment!" rants in the 'Matrix' essays remind me of the American anti-war protesters who spat on returning Vietnam veterans-- from a financially well off and college educated, yet choosing to rebel against the social structure that gives him such priviledges and lets him live in comfort.

Seriously, what the f*** is he whining for? For George Lucas to pay back the royalties he could've earned if potential fans of 'The Postman' didn't choose to spend their money on 'Star Wars' merchandise instead?

[Stark]

Brin has a fair complaint - there is no reason for anyone in SW to say 'fire on the Federation starship' or 'don't let the Federation starship escape'. There are no Federations in SW - certainly none involved with Trade - and at no point would such a Federation have ships fleeing loyalist forces during a rebellion. It's just gratuitious Star Trek bashing, which really shows what George thinks about when he writes movies.

[Darth Wong]

Brin has a fair complaint - there is no reason for anyone in SW to say 'fire on the Federation starship' or 'don't let the Federation starship escape'. There are no Federations in SW - certainly none involved with Trade - and at no point would such a Federation have ships fleeing loyalist forces during a rebellion. It's just gratuitious Star Trek bashing, which really shows what George thinks about when he writes movies.

[Winston Blake]

Since the topic is 'David Brin Is Such A Wanker', i might say that i find his writing style annoyingly smug (although i haven't read any of his novels). In many cases it almost sounds like he's channeling a high school girl writing a poem about her boyfriend, e.g.

The Postman was written as an answer to all those post-apocalyptic books and films that seem to revel in the idea of civilization's fall. It's a story about how much we take for granted -- and how desperately we would miss the little, gracious things that connect us today. It is a story about the last idealist in a fallen America. A man who cannot let go of a dream we all once shared. Who sparks restored faith that we can recover, and perhaps even become better than we were. It would take a special kind of actor to play the lead role -- a ragged survivor, deeply scarred, yet still willing to hope. In this era of cynicism, we need reminders of the decency that lies within.

This style that somehow rubs me the wrong way also extends to his speech, in which he aspirates every single plosive such that it's simultaneously patronising and pathetic.

I mean, i can certainly respect his accomplishments, but he's just so annoying, and knows it too. It's like high school girls who suddenly decide that they're vegetarian and nitpick everything around them while taking pleasure in being a 'rebel' against 'the mainstream'.

Hmm... i seem to have something against annoying high school girls.

[/rant]

[FTeik]

Heh.

All right, we don't have to go quite that far!

Here's a milder version. Those orcs and low-elves and dwarves and dark-skinned or proletarian men who fought for the Ringlord were fooled by Sauron's propaganda.

Fair enough. Even that slight variation adds flavor to an already-great tale, making you pity Sauron's dupes a little, even though you still cheer as they're slaughtered down to the last private and orcoral.

Come on folks, a little empathy.

Instead of railing against 'evil,' try to understand it. That's always been the best way to defeat it.

# # #

Am I pulling your leg? You bet! I don't take speculations about fictional villains quite that seriously.

My real point is much more general. It's this --

Don't just receive your adventures. Toy with them. Re-mold them in your mind! Keep asking "What if...?" It's how you get practice not just being a passive consumer, or critic, but a creative storyteller in your own right.

And remember this too -- enlightenment, science, democracy and equal opportunity are still the true rebels, reigning for just a few generations (and still imperfectly!) in one or two corners of the Earth, after elite chiefs, romantic bards and magicians dominated our ancestors for maybe half a million years.

Don't you think a little pride in that rebellion might be called for? A radical revolution-in-progress, still fresh and incomplete.

A rebellion that (among many other things) taught serfs like you to read so you can enjoy epic books and picture things different than they are.

One that makes vivid movies that cater to your taste for adventure.

One that, for all its imperfections, gave you a better chance than in some peasant village of old.

One that has a long way to go, but has at least turned our eyes around to face the future.

Self-critical almost to a fault, this culture may not be as romantic as those old kingdoms... but isn't it better?

You are heirs of the world's first true civilization, arising out of the first true revolution. Take some pride in it...

Let's keep enjoying kings and wizards. But also remember to keep them where they belong.

Where they can do little harm.

Where they entertain us.

In fantasies.

THE END

Sounds almost McEwokesqe.

[Sriad]

Brin is in the same class as Orson Scott Card. I enjoy some of his works (unlike some in this thread, I got a big kick out of the Uplift books) but the writer himself is a wanker who's happy to hand down their divine and incorruptable word on any damn thing.

Writers like these are among the best reasons to have libraries and used book stores.

[K. A. Pital]

Come on folks, a little empathy.

Wow. Brin would make a good Nazi-sympathizer. Just replace:

All right, we don't have to go quite that far!

Here's a milder version. Those Nazis and their collaborators and allies and all European men who fought for Htler were fooled by Goebbels' propaganda.

Fair enough. Even that slight variation adds flavor to an already-great tale, making you pity Hitler's dupes a little, even though you still cheer as they're slaughtered down to the last private and corporal.

Come on folks, a little empathy.

Instead of railing against 'evil,' try to understand it. That's always been the best way to defeat it.

Does that sound sane to you? Understanding the Nazi mentality is the best way to defeat it? A little "empathy"? Wows.

These are not just evil "dupes". There are philosophies which are inherently evil. Sauronism, as a ME version of Nazism, is one of them. It doesn't strike me as "fooled", because the ideology (unlike, for ex., communism or socialism or whatever) in itself is bent over on total destruction of the weaker. Wow.

Brin strikes me as the type of guy who doesn't fucking think before he writes.

Self-critical almost to a fault, this culture may not be as romantic as those old kingdoms...

Your life is as romantic as you think of it. He's totally off.

[Anguirus]

I don't suppose that this guy has gone after the dubious morality of Star Trek's Prime Directive? After all, they aren't a monarchy, or an oligarchy, or a representative democracy, or any other of the governmental systems he seems to despise in sci-fi/fantasy.