102 Irish Priests Suspected of Abuse

[Admiral Valdemar]

Remember, an arbitrary vow as part of a religious doctrine overrides innate hormonal urges.

[Alex Moon]

Are you seriously telling me that sexual frustration does not lead to a desire for young boys? I will readily admit that this is not the truth in all cases, but surely you can see that if Priests were not made to be celibate it might ease off some of their other desires?

No, I can't. Again, there are plenty of pedophiles running around that have wives and children. It is a mental disease, one that needs treatment and removal from temptation.

[Alex Moon]

And that is going to do jack shit. There are plenty of pedophiles who are married and raising families (see the boyscout leader from a few years ago). It doesn't change their desires. If anything, marriage may make the situation worse, since it would provide cover for the predators, or a way for those struggling with the truth to avoid getting help for their problem.

You mean like the priesthood serves as a cover and a muffler?

I never claimed that the Church was innocent. They've screwed up royally in their handling of this issue. My issue was with the idea that allowing priests to marry would have a significant effect in stopping the problem of child molestation.

[Darth Raptor]

I never claimed that the Church was innocent. They've screwed up royally in their handling of this issue. My issue was with the idea that allowing priests to marry would have a significant effect in stopping the problem of child molestation.

And you don't think they'd be "removed from temptation" by being able to have healthy and legal sexual congress with adults without putting their careers at risk?

[Alex Moon]

Remember, an arbitrary vow as part of a religious doctrine overrides innate hormonal urges.

They should. That's what defines humanity as something more than just animals. We have the capacity for self-denial and reflection. This is why every religion of any consequence has advocated rituals that involve some sort of discomfort, be it abstinance, temperence, fasting, or more extreme forms such as self mutilation. The common thread is that in all cases, we transend our discomfort and learn to understand and control our base urges, and through that process learn to focus on higher matters.

[Alex Moon]

I never claimed that the Church was innocent. They've screwed up royally in their handling of this issue. My issue was with the idea that allowing priests to marry would have a significant effect in stopping the problem of child molestation.

And you don't think they'd be "removed from temptation" by being able to have healthy and legal sexual congress with adults without putting their careers at risk?

No, because they would still have the desires, would still be working in a job that put them in contact with children, and in many cases would now have children of their own.

[Admiral Valdemar]

Problem is, these men are not strong willed enough and are succumbing to their primal urges. Anyone who tries to go any length of time without so much as masturbating, will know how difficult it can be if they have a normal sex drive. These men should be severely disciplined and excised from the Church.

[Darth Raptor]

Alex is operating under the assumption that all priestly pedophiles were pedophiles first and priests second, and that they were attracted to the proffession because it put them within reach of a favored prey. How is this assumption justified? What if they became priests out of devotion to Catholicism, but then became pedophiles because of the Church's stifling sexual repression?

Why not just let them marry? Oh, right. They've gotta be like Paul.

[Stark]

A vow of celibacy is a wonderful (although retarded) thing... if it's entered into with an adequate degree of reflection. If I was told in university I had to take a vow of celibacy to graduate and get a job, I would have changed industries - you can't do that if your religious.

[Alex Moon]

Alex is operating under the assumption that all priestly pedophiles were pedophiles first and priests second, and that they were attracted to the proffession because it put them within reach of a favored prey.

I assumed no such thing. I've never claimed that they weren't devoted Catholics, merely that they had a sickness that needs to be dealt with. Most probably came to the priesthood because they knew that what they were feeling was wrong, and hoped that the discipline of the life would help them, or that they could atone for the sin of their lusts.

How is this assumption justified? What if they became priests out of devotion to Catholicism, but then became pedophiles because of the Church's stifling sexual repression?

Proof for this? We've seen plenty of cases where pedophiles exist absent the "stifling sexual repression". Why should we assume that priests are somehow different?

[Darth Raptor]

I assumed no such thing. I've never claimed that they weren't devoted Catholics, merely that they had a sickness that needs to be dealt with. Most probably came to the priesthood because they knew that what they were feeling was wrong, and hoped that the discipline of the life would help them, or that they could atone for the sin of their lusts.

You deny the assumption then proceed to repeat it?

Proof for this? We've seen plenty of cases where pedophiles exist absent the "stifling sexual repression". Why should we assume that priests are somehow different?

You say that allowing RC priests to marry would not only do nothing to alleviate the problem, but compound it. This assertion is based on the assumption that celibacy does not create nor contribute to pedophilia, and that the priesthood merely attracts preexisting pedophiles for various reasons. Why not just let them marry?

[The Guid]

Proof for this? We've seen plenty of cases where pedophiles exist absent the "stifling sexual repression". Why should we assume that priests are somehow different?

I can also point to where sexual frustration has lead to "bending the rules" sex wise.

I use, as examples, the two traditional locations of both homosexuality and sex with boys (two entirely seperate things I accept, just to make my position clear) in terms of stereotypes; in Britain it is the navy and the British public school.

The navy - lots of men on ships, away from women. All of a sudden, people began to shift their own sexuality out of desperation. Of course, some might have been homosexual to begin with but remember this was a time where homosexuality was still considered wrong - and as such they had to go significantly against existing morals to deal with homosexuality. I daresay some of those who were mostly heterosexual but driven to other temptations would have gone for the younger crew members, because of their hairlessness.

Similalry with the British public school. Lots of males, away from women, secluded. Many many boys and young men who never went on to be homosexuals in their later life dabbled in the waters of either enjoying the flesh of their fellows or, in darker times, of using the younger boys.

Can you see, why, with the above examples in mind, I think that Catholic celibacy contributes to abuse of choirboys? And why I think a healthy sexual relationship with a woman (or a man, but I'm not going to try and think for a minute the RC Church would even consider being that liberal) would help?

I challenge you to name another profession where there are these kind of problems to the same degree. I also challenge you to find me the same extent of problems in, for example, the Church of Englad which has clergy that can marry.

[Pick]

Before we get into this argument, does anyone actually have access or know of a report on paedophilia which might clear this up more than "logical reasoning" (which I'd be very loathe to use in understanding paedophilia)? I'm sure there has to be information out there that has been gleaned from these types of situations. It's quite possible that marrying wouldn't help them. It is also possible that it would. That would depend on the nature of this unhealthy sexual urge.

Again, does anyone know of any reports or studies that vindicate either side?

[Lord of the Farce]

Before we get into this argument, does anyone actually have access or know of a report on paedophilia which might clear this up more than "logical reasoning" (which I'd be very loathe to use in understanding paedophilia)? I'm sure there has to be information out there that has been gleaned from these types of situations. It's quite possible that marrying wouldn't help them. It is also possible that it would. That would depend on the nature of this unhealthy sexual urge.

Again, does anyone know of any reports or studies that vindicate either side?

From The EROS Foundation:

The book The Australian Paedophile and Sex Offender Index, published in 1996, includes a listing of offenders by occupation. This listing reveals that Clergy and Church Officials make up the largest single group of offenders. Of the more than 350 offenders named in the book, 68 were Clergy & Church Officials, 38 were Teachers, Educators, Universities and Schools Related (but not religious teachers) followed by 34 Computers, Videotaping, Video Games, Entertainment & Media Related. Other occupations prominently listed included Public Servants, including Members of Parliament, Councillors, Council Workers, Defence And Police Force Members and Self-Employed, Managers, Directors, Farming And Business Related. The thoroughly researched book found no prostitutes, no sex shop owners, no X video producers and no adult publishers with paedophile backgrounds or sex offences recorded against them.

Don't know about anybody else, but the fact that those who are associated with sex on the most frequent basis were also the least associated with paedophilia and sex offenses (and I seriously doubt that any "Moral Crusaders" would let offenders who had a sex industry background fade away without a MASSIVE stink)... Well, the implication is pretty obvious.

[mr friendly guy]

Remember, an arbitrary vow as part of a religious doctrine overrides innate hormonal urges.

They should. That's what defines humanity as something more than just animals. We have the capacity for self-denial and reflection. This is why every religion of any consequence has advocated rituals that involve some sort of discomfort, be it abstinance, temperence, fasting, or more extreme forms such as self mutilation. The common thread is that in all cases, we transend our discomfort and learn to understand and control our base urges, and through that process learn to focus on higher matters.

But they don't. Using an analogy of evaluating a scientific theory, your theory that "they should override innate hormonal urges" does not match observation which suggests the opposite. Thus your theory is wrong no matter how many red herrings you throw out.

<snip>.

Wow. When WA lowered the age of consent for gay men to the same as heterosexuals, the religious wrong bitched about how this would lead to an increase in paedophilia, because we all know homosexuality and paedophilia is the same thing. I wonder how those same people are going to react when confronted with the information that religious people are more likely to be paedophiles. My bet is they will say those priest weren't "true" christians.

[mingo]

The idea behind allowing Priests to marry is not so much to frevent sexual frustration (although I can't see that as a BAD thing) but rather to stop making the Priesthood look like a safe haven for child molestors. The idea is that these folks enter the Priesthood KNOWING that they have a problem. They think, "Well if I become a Priest, nobody will wonder why I don't go out with women ect... And they will teach me how to control my sexual urges." Then they find out tradition and prayer are no match for body chemestry. If Preists were just like normal men, the child molestor would not view it as a place to hide or the answer to his problem. At least that's one view, I have no idea how accurate it is.

[The Guid]

See I would disagree with you mingo on the idea that many priests are paedophiles before going into the priesthood. I think that that hypothesis needs to be backed by some evidence, though please don't take this as a flame because I thought your post was intelligent and coherent.

[mingo]

Well Guid, I have no idea if this premise is correct, this is just the most coherant argument I've heard for linking the marriage of Preists to the problem of pedophillia in the Preisthood. A better argument, to my mind id that forced celibacy is just cruel.

[Alex Moon]

I want a chance to reply to everyone, but it will have to wait until next Tuesday or so, since I need this weekend to focus on schoolwork and applications, and can't afford to go hunting down the sources I need.

[The Guid]

Well Guid, I have no idea if this premise is correct, this is just the most coherant argument I've heard for linking the marriage of Preists to the problem of pedophillia in the Preisthood. A better argument, to my mind id that forced celibacy is just cruel.

Can I therefore ask why you felt my argument did not seem like a logical conclusion to you?

[mingo]

Mainly because EVERYONE experinces sexual frustration, but not everyone takes it out on kids. The reality is I'm sure, that Priests wank a lot, how could they not?

[wolveraptor]

Either the Catholic Church attracts paedophiles the way mingo described, or the nature of celibate nature of priesthood induces child molestation: you can't deny that the Church has had more than its share of sexual deviants. Either way, I see it as a flaw in the system.

[Einhander Sn0m4n]

Mainly because EVERYONE experinces sexual frustration, but not everyone takes it out on kids. The reality is I'm sure, that Priests wank a lot, how could they not?

They're not allowed to, AFAIK.

[wolveraptor]

It's obviously not a publicly confabulated thing, you know?

[The Guid]

Mainly because EVERYONE experinces sexual frustration, but not everyone takes it out on kids. The reality is I'm sure, that Priests wank a lot, how could they not?

Actually, no, not everyone experiences sexual frustration in my opinion. They may do at points in their life but when I was sexually frustrated I could always look forward to having a boy/girlfriend in the future. Catholic Priests are to be frustrated FOR LIFE. I don't believe that masturbation get's rid of sexual tension in as efficient a way as a sexual relationship with someone else, especially with the Catholic guilt about sex. Why, otherwise, would people bother?

And no, not everyone takes things out on kids. This is very true. But I have implied a correllation between lack of sexual possibilities with women and a taste for small boys and/or a taste for other men (again, I wish to reiterate I am not a fundie trying to blur the line between homosexuality and paedophilia. I hear the argument too often to not want to guard against me being misunderstoood) and I don't believe you have given me a sufficient reason to thing that this correllation does not apply.