Why did it seem like the CIS was losing ground battles?!!

[Lukedanieljames]

Aside from Naboo, where there was no real competition, why in gods name did it seem like the CIS was losing every battle on the ground? I just read the thread with them having quadrillions of battle droids, and billions of space droids,

I mean, maybe it was for cinematics, that the clone troopers were winning, but in all honestly, I don't get how a clone army, where the troops take 10 years to grow and train can beat an army spitting out that many droids and ships

opinions?

[Noble Ire]

Aside from Naboo, where there was no real competition, why in gods name did it seem like the CIS was losing every battle on the ground? I just read the thread with them having quadrillions of battle droids, and billions of space droids,

I mean, maybe it was for cinematics, that the clone troopers were winning, but in all honestly, I don't get how a clone army, where the troops take 10 years to grow and train can beat an army spitting out that many droids and ships

opinions?

Well, if one looks simply at the movies:

At the Battle of Geonosis, the CIS did outnumber the GAR by at least a 5 to 1 margin, IIRC, but they were caught completely off-balance, when most of their forces were either in warehouses or being loaded into core ships. Add on the fact that the Republic fleet had space superiority, and the CIS leadership ordered a retreat almost immediately, the reason for the GAR's victory is pretty obvious.

The Battle of Kashyyyk is a bit more of an oddity. To me, it did look like the CIS had superior numbers again, but not by a crushing margin, and thus could not simply overwhelm the defenders. I can only guess that either that was a fairly minor portion of the battle on the planet, or the CIS force was largely destroyed from orbit when the Republic arrived, leaving only smaller numbers in vital locations.

On Utapua, the CIS couldn't deploy the numbers they normally did since moving billions of driods there would likely have attracted more attnetion than a secret base would want. When Commander Cody's forces attacked, they essentially had to fight a glorified honor guard.

The engagements on the other worlds seen in ROTS, like Cato Nemiodia, aren't really seen other than a few brief snippets, and thus you can't really judge who's winning.


There are numerous observed battles in the EU, but again, in most of those cases, circumstances exist to limit the effectiveness of overwhelming numbers. Actually, that makes sense; generally, battles are resolved in space, and soldiers are only deployed to planetary surfaces for combat in unusual situations, or to achieve a specific objective. That may be one of the reasons why the Republic actually has able to hold its own; if they tended to have space superiority, ground numbers wouldn't be nearly as vital.

[Lukedanieljames]

Something to consider, the CIS had billions of space droids, I mean, they weren't the greatest but at a certain point, numbers do matter

[Noble Ire]

Something to consider, the CIS had billions of space droids, I mean, they weren't the greatest but at a certain point, numbers do matter

In Star Wars, starfighters generally don't make or break a battle. They seem to be primarily recon/covert ops, bomber-intercepting, escort, and finishing off targets that have their shields down. Important, certainly, but usually if you have superior quality/number capital ships and frigates, you're going to win the day. Also keep in mind that while fewer in number, GAR fighters were vastly superior to most of those in the CIS arsenal, whether by virtue of Jedi pilots, or having almost gunship-level shielding (in the case of the ARC-170).

[Count Dooku]

Something to consider, the CIS had billions of space droids, I mean, they weren't the greatest but at a certain point, numbers do matter

In Star Wars, starfighters generally don't make or break a battle. They seem to be primarily recon/covert ops, bomber-intercepting, escort, and finishing off targets that have their shields down. Important, certainly, but usually if you have superior quality/number capital ships and frigates, you're going to win the day. Also keep in mind that while fewer in number, GAR fighters were vastly superior to most of those in the CIS arsenal, whether by virtue of Jedi pilots, or having almost gunship-level shielding (in the case of the ARC-170).

In an earlier thread, it was agreed that the Trade Federation had around 10,000 Battleships in their arsenal at the time of the Battle of Naboo, and in that same thread, it was also agreed upon that it would take about 13 Venator's to take down a TF BB. That SHOULD mean that it would have taken 130,000 Venator's to defeat the Trade Federation!!!

The REAL reason the CIS was loosing was because of Palpatine/Sideous. Sideous controlled the CIS, and sent them on a number of completely pointless offensives - mostly in the outer rim. If you watch the Clone Wars cartoon series, you will see the CIS hand the Republic their asses a few times.

I'd bet that if Dooku and Grevious wanted to win the war, they could have done so pretty easily. Grevious was one hell of a general, and the jedi even admit that he was the first one to out maneuver them. In that same episode, you see Grevious and his Super Battledroids surrounding a series of destroyed Acclamators, and the last surviving jedi of the attack.

[Noble Ire]

In an earlier thread, it was agreed that the Trade Federation had around 10,000 Battleships in their arsenal at the time of the Battle of Naboo, and in that same thread, it was also agreed upon that it would take about 13 Venator's to take down a TF BB. That SHOULD mean that it would have taken 130,000 Venator's to defeat the Trade Federation!!!

Do you have evidence that they didn't have a very, very large fleet?

The REAL reason the CIS was loosing was because of Palpatine/Sideous. Sideous controlled the CIS, and sent them on a number of completely pointless offensives - mostly in the outer rim. If you watch the Clone Wars cartoon series, you will see the CIS hand the Republic their asses a few times.

I'd bet that if Dooku and Grevious wanted to win the war, they could have done so pretty easily. Grevious was one hell of a general, and the jedi even admit that he was the first one to out maneuver them. In that same episode, you see Grevious and his Super Battledroids surrounding a series of destroyed Acclamators, and the last surviving jedi of the attack.

I have seen the CW cartoons, several times in fact.
You are probably correct in that the CIS was half-hearted and disorganized in its offensives. However, even Palpatine's machaniations couldn't save the Republic without raising suspicion on Dooku or GG's part if they couldn't muster enough ships and troops to put up a real, decent fight.

[Count Dooku]

In an earlier thread, it was agreed that the Trade Federation had around 10,000 Battleships in their arsenal at the time of the Battle of Naboo, and in that same thread, it was also agreed upon that it would take about 13 Venator's to take down a TF BB. That SHOULD mean that it would have taken 130,000 Venator's to defeat the Trade Federation!!!

Do you have evidence that they didn't have a very, very large fleet?

The REAL reason the CIS was loosing was because of Palpatine/Sideous. Sideous controlled the CIS, and sent them on a number of completely pointless offensives - mostly in the outer rim. If you watch the Clone Wars cartoon series, you will see the CIS hand the Republic their asses a few times.

I'd bet that if Dooku and Grevious wanted to win the war, they could have done so pretty easily. Grevious was one hell of a general, and the jedi even admit that he was the first one to out maneuver them. In that same episode, you see Grevious and his Super Battledroids surrounding a series of destroyed Acclamators, and the last surviving jedi of the attack.

I have seen the CW cartoons, several times in fact.
You are probably correct in that the CIS was half-hearted and disorganized in its offensives. However, even Palpatine's machaniations couldn't save the Republic without raising suspicion on Dooku or GG's part if they couldn't muster enough ships and troops to put up a real, decent fight.

The Republic had thousands of Venator's, but not enough to tackle all the TF BB's, and I think there were less than a dozen Mantadors.

[Noble Ire]

The Republic had thousands of Venator's, but not enough to tackle all the TF BB's, and I think there were less than a dozen Mantadors.

I've never heard any solid number on the Republic's fleet size. Do you have a source?

Also, where are you getting this 10,000 number? I realize that the TF must have had a very large number of ships for the blockading of Naboo, perhaps that many, but none of them were Dreadnaughts (basic hulls compared to the later vessels). I would imagine quite a few could be upgraded into proper fighting shape, but I'm not sure if you can use that number as a precise indicator of CIS fleet size.

[Archon]

Is it possible that Darth Sidious ordered that the Trade Federation not upgrade all of its Lucrehulks into the Battleship variant?

[Knife]

I would imagine it's just simple scale. Did we ever find out how many systmes joined the CIS? AFAIK, we only have Dooku's 10 thousand systems from AotC's, but even doubleing that or tripleing it is still small fries next to one million member worlds and millions of colonies/territories/holdings.

The fact that it was mainly economic interests that formed the CIS pretty much gave them the option of buying a fleet and an army, yet the economic forces of the Republic (even wounded) would still outstrip the robber barrons of the CIS.

On droid numbers v clones. We have no idea how many clones ended up in the GAR by wars end. Yes the initial clones took ten years, but even while they were saying it, you could see a shit load more in various stages of development. They could have been coming off the assembly line every few months.

Also, in the EU, we know that clone production went off the charts and with flash imprinting, they could grow a clone in as little as a year. A clone may cost more than a droid, but the Republic should have had the resources to do so and still outproduce the smaller CIS.

[Tychu]

Aside from Naboo, where there was no real competition, why in gods name did it seem like the CIS was losing every battle on the ground? I just read the thread with them having quadrillions of battle droids, and billions of space droids,

I mean, maybe it was for cinematics, that the clone troopers were winning, but in all honestly, I don't get how a clone army, where the troops take 10 years to grow and train can beat an army spitting out that many droids and ships

opinions?

The Battle of Kashyyyk is a bit more of an oddity. To me, it did look like the CIS had superior numbers again, but not by a crushing margin, and thus could not simply overwhelm the defenders. I can only guess that either that was a fairly minor portion of the battle on the planet, or the CIS force was largely destroyed from orbit when the Republic arrived, leaving only smaller numbers in vital locations.

well for that the battle we see in Episode III was the battle of Kashyyk 2 weeks old. The battle had been going on in the forrests and stuff 2 weeks before the events in Episode III (This comes from the SW: Republic issues, I believe 80-83)

[loomer]

Theoretically, since we only see engagements with clones in the movies, the fights wee see are ones that can be won with the deployment of small units of highly trained soldiers rather than lost anyway.

[Ender]

Something to consider, the CIS had billions of space droids, I mean, they weren't the greatest but at a certain point, numbers do matter

In Star Wars, starfighters generally don't make or break a battle. They seem to be primarily recon/covert ops, bomber-intercepting, escort, and finishing off targets that have their shields down. Important, certainly, but usually if you have superior quality/number capital ships and frigates, you're going to win the day. Also keep in mind that while fewer in number, GAR fighters were vastly superior to most of those in the CIS arsenal, whether by virtue of Jedi pilots, or having almost gunship-level shielding (in the case of the ARC-170).

In an earlier thread, it was agreed that the Trade Federation had around 10,000 Battleships in their arsenal at the time of the Battle of Naboo, and in that same thread, it was also agreed upon that it would take about 13 Venator's to take down a TF BB. That SHOULD mean that it would have taken 130,000 Venator's to defeat the Trade Federation!!!

And the ROTS ICS mentions millions of ships tied up in the outer rim sieges. That would be both sides there.

[Ender]

Is it possible that Darth Sidious ordered that the Trade Federation not upgrade all of its Lucrehulks into the Battleship variant?

They didn't. The AOTC novel states there are a troop transport version and a battleship version. We also know there is the droid control ship version still, and the generic freighter version

[Ender]

The Republic had thousands of Venator's, but not enough to tackle all the TF BB's, and I think there were less than a dozen Mantadors.

They sent thousands of Venators to a single battle (Coruscant) and ther are no numbers about the Mandators

[Lazarus]

Why is it that in the Battle of Coruscant in RotS the only Republic ships seen are either Acclamator class or Venator class? This would make a fleet comprised solely of carriers and assault ships? Where are the picket ships, the heavy cruisers?Such a deployment of ISD's would make slightly more sense, seeing as how the ISD is designed to fulfill the role of assault ship/carrier/heavy cruiser and at times even picket ship.

[Shroom Man 777]

There were Carracks...

[Bill_Dunaway]

If they kept losing battles despite superior forces, wouldn't they soon suspect Dooku of either incompetence or disloyalty and find a new leader? Many of the CIS big wigs should be able to resist Force mind control.

[Lukedanieljames]

I mean...people are talking about what capital ships are in orbit, but I mean down in the nitty gritty. In the caves, forrests, deserts, marshes, you name it.

We know that the regular battle droid of the CIS can compact itself down to 50% its standing height, which would make for great packing, as we saw in TPM. Clone Troopers can't do anywhere near this, they need food, showers, beds, recreational things to do, workout facilities, etc etc etc. That takes up space, there is just no way you can land as many clone troopers on a planet as you could battle droids.

The republic forces on the ground atleast should have been outnumbered well beyond what we saw in the movies, knowing that, we shouldn't have seen the CIS forces consistantly losing in each battle scene in AOTC and ROTS. Even on the battle field, the troops get tired, hungry, etc, food and supplies have to be brought in, beds...medical supplies etc etc.

The droids weren't complete idiots, they had some tactics, especially in TPM when they invaded naboo and where fighting room to room with the guards, they knew how to take cover.

Anyway, my thoughts only.

[Noble Ire]

The republic forces on the ground atleast should have been outnumbered well beyond what we saw in the movies, knowing that, we shouldn't have seen the CIS forces consistantly losing in each battle scene in AOTC and ROTS. Even on the battle field, the troops get tired, hungry, etc, food and supplies have to be brought in, beds...medical supplies etc etc.

So... did you actually read my first post?
In SW, ground forces are not used as they are used today. They are only deployed as defenders of an already captured world, or in cases where simple orbital bombardment isn't feazible. The reason we don't see clones being overwhelmed by trillions of driods is because the generals simply wouldn't put them in a situation where that would happen.

[Lukedanieljames]

The republic forces on the ground atleast should have been outnumbered well beyond what we saw in the movies, knowing that, we shouldn't have seen the CIS forces consistantly losing in each battle scene in AOTC and ROTS. Even on the battle field, the troops get tired, hungry, etc, food and supplies have to be brought in, beds...medical supplies etc etc.

So... did you actually read my first post?
In SW, ground forces are not used as they are used today. They are only deployed as defenders of an already captured world, or in cases where simple orbital bombardment isn't feazible. The reason we don't see clones being overwhelmed by trillions of driods is because the generals simply wouldn't put them in a situation where that would happen.

Hrmm,
space combat droids are still an issue. Someone said that fighters aren't really a big deal in the SW universe, unless a shield has failed, or your looking for a ship in an asteroid field.

There are still anti-capital ship torpedos, is there any evidence these droids have them?

[Noble Ire]

Hrmm,
space combat droids are still an issue. Someone said that fighters aren't really a big deal in the SW universe, unless a shield has failed, or your looking for a ship in an asteroid field.

Yes. I said that.

There are still anti-capital ship torpedos, is there any evidence these droids have them?

I suppose they could (I seem to recall Rogue Squadron carrying them later on), but they would still need a whole lot to be a threat to a cap ship. It's more effective to just put a whole lot of missile emplacements on a larger vessel, as the GAR did with Acclamators and Victories.

[Lukedanieljames]

Ok interesting, intesting.

Let me ask another question, ASSUME/IF either side had the same capital ships, which type of army is better?

the droid army? or human/clones like clone troopers?

droids can be made by the quadrillions but aren't that smart, you can also diversify a lot more with a droid army (different type of droid footsoldiers)

a human army is smarter, thats the only real advantage I can think of

[Lukedanieljames]

I suppose they could (I seem to recall Rogue Squadron carrying them later on), but they would still need a whole lot to be a threat to a cap ship. It's more effective to just put a whole lot of missile emplacements on a larger vessel, as the GAR did with Acclamators and Victories.

Thats not the CIS game though, they can produce small units by the billions, and since numbers aren't a problem for the CIS, why not make those vulture droids have anti cap missiles on them, who cares if it takes 100 of them to take down a cap ship, you got 7 billion of them waiting!

[Noble Ire]

Let me ask another question, ASSUME/IF either side had the same capital ships, which type of army is better?

the droid army? or human/clones like clone troopers?

droids can be made by the quadrillions but aren't that smart, you can also diversify a lot more with a droid army (different type of droid footsoldiers)

a human army is smarter, thats the only real advantage I can think of

This question is a bit tricky. While the CIS almost certainly had more total soldiers, the actual number of clone troopers is unknown, and could range from the ridiculous low millions, to the high trillions. Soldier for soldier, the AOTC actually states that a clone and a SBD were about on par with one another, although those stats might have changed as the clones got more battlefield experience (and benefitted from superior mobile armor). Nevertheless, I think it would be streching it to say that a clone was vastly superior statistically compared to the various war droid models; my own completely arbitrary estimate would make them from twice as effective to five times, absolute upper limit.

In the end, it comes down to numbers, and I think the CIS almost certainly win out there. But again, troop number don't win the war; fleet numbers do.

Thats not the CIS game though, they can produce small units by the billions, and since numbers aren't a problem for the CIS, why not make those vulture droids have anti cap missiles on them, who cares if it takes 100 of them to take down a cap ship, you got 7 billion of them waiting!

To certain extent you would be right; a swarm of say ten thousand capital-ship armed torpedo fighters might be effective in destroying GAR warships. However, it simply isn't cost effective; capital ship missiles are expensive (far more so than turbolaser turrets, considering one can be reused, and the other cannot), and missiles can be intercepted much of the time, limiting their effectiveness save in special circumstances. That's why most war-era SW ships don't use them heavily.