Ships of the Line vs. The Soviet Union (Old Theory)

[The Yosemite Bear]

Basicly the tactical doctorine of the Star Trek Galaxy comes down to the WWI and before British Empire's "Ships of the Line", with Defiants as the battlecruiser, only just beginning to start work on carriers, etc. The whole way of their designs, tactics, and operation seems to echo that.

The Galactic Empire Tends to respond with the Quanity has a Quality all it's own doctrine of the Post WWII Russian Navy. The massive salvo's of turbolaser overkill, ungodly numbers of TIE's, echo the missile volly's and fighter hoards of the Soviet Union.

Even if the weapon's weren't so much deadlier, from a tactical standpoint the Federation is hopelessly outclassed. Many of their casualties against the Dominion were showing that they were facing a foe that knew how to use small craft. Even the Federation & Dominion fighters aren't really fighters, their PT boats.

[The Yosemite Bear]

and from the technical standpoint, how long would the HMS Dreadnaught last against The Kirov?

[Grand Admiral Thrawn]

and from the technical standpoint, how long would the HMS Dreadnaught last against The Kirov?

Seconds.

[The Yosemite Bear]

and If you replace HMS Dreadnaught with Ent E, and Kirov with ISD you get about the same match up....

[macman]

Pardon me for jumping in here (I am new) but a couple of questions...

If you allow the Kirov to use nukes I would agree with you but if you limit her to conventional warheads it is unlikely she could sink the Dreadnought.

Dreadnoughts or super dreadnaughts as the later classes (Queen Elizabeth Class, Revenge and so forth were designed to take many heavy shell hits (The warspite survived over 30 heavy shell hits with no lose in fighting abilitly at Jutland and the Kirov only carries 40 missiles in her magazine.

On the other hand if the Dreadnought coud close to effective range (about 20,000 yards) or 40,000 years for more modern ships (HMS Renown hit a Italian Battleship at 42,000 yards in WW2)..Just my 2 cents but I think the Imperial Ships are like the British Battleship, big powerrful and slow against a force made up of cruisers and destroyers..they can hit the ships but unlikely they can do much damage...but there are several instances recorded of Battleships (The Imperials engaging cruisers (Star Fleet) and the Battleships sink the cruisers with two or three shots)....

Chris

[Ghost Rider]

Huh...Imperial Star Destroyers are shown to be quite fast for something of that much bulk.

And as for the Federation...so far they are not really in the same league...by a long shot.

As for the match up...like GAT said seconds.

I mean the Federation does not make a warship(I mean I remember some time ago how a people would rework the Federation to a more militaristic design.) and truly the make pleasure cruisers with a huge amount of anemities and call it a warship because it's go a few more guns.

[macman]

I don't think you can say that the Dreadnought would sink in seconds...'
Here is a link to the Operation Crossroads History Site:
http://www.history.navy.mil/ac/bikini/bikini2.htm

This was a test conducted after WWII where 2 atomtic bombs were dropped on a fleet of surplus naval ships including several battleships just a few years younger than the dreadnought and they all survived both tests.....The point being Battleships were designed to fight Battleships..ships like the Kirov were designed to fight a different emeny (The idea was for them to stand at long rnage from our carrier battlegroups and overshelm them with missile fire..

The idea that one missile can sink a warship got some support in the battle of the Falkians when the HMS sheffield was hit with an exocert missile and sunk but that was a modern warship not a battlewagon..

I beleive that the Imperial ship SDS would easily defeat a ST ship one on one but not in a matter of seconds....

Chris[/url]

[Ghost Rider]

But calculations show that a GCS does not even have the shield power to resist a single MTL.

Literally one shot=one kill

When raw math tells you that your ship can only resist so many Mega Tons...and something with Giga Tons is coming towards you.

[starfury]

I think the topic was on the doctrine of the federation vs the empire, the mainline cruisers and battleships of the feddies being like the Soverigan/galaxy and cruisers like the ambassadar and nebula.

the imperial fleet I think you had nailed down though. However the sheer technical difference made the federation fleet rather unsuited to even survive engagement with imperial forces.

[macman]

That is true

One shot and burning starsship (if there is anything left to burn)

[Vympel]

If you allow the Kirov to use nukes I would agree with you but if you limit her to conventional warheads it is unlikely she could sink the Dreadnought.

You are gravely mistaken.

Dreadnoughts or super dreadnaughts as the later classes (Queen Elizabeth Class, Revenge and so forth were designed to take many heavy shell hits (The warspite survived over 30 heavy shell hits with no lose in fighting abilitly at Jutland and the Kirov only carries 40 missiles in her magazine.

The Dreadnought armor belt is pathetic by modern missile penetration standards.

Belt:4-11 inches midship: 98mm-270mm, 2.5 inches end: 61mm approx
Deck: 3 inches altogehter: 74mm
Turrets: 270mm face
Conning tower: 270mm face

Modern anti-tank missiles a fraction of the size of Kirov's Granit (SHIPWRECK) can penetrate all of that with ease- starting fires and dooming the ship. The Vikhr-M is rated at 900mm RHA penetration. The much more massive SHIPWRECK will cut through it like a knife through butter. There's a reason why they don't bother with these massive armor belts anymore. The same is true of the Iowa battleship cultists who think it can shrug off modern anti-ship missile hits are clearly ignorant.

[Vympel]

Forgive the conversion error. I was accidentally putting in 24.5 instead of 25.4. Still, it makes no difference.

[macman]

I do not disagree that these weapons would penterate the armor, my point is that these ships were designed to take many hits like this and still survive and function.....

The main reason that Battleships are not used anymore (except they are quite good at shore bombardment is that aircraft can overwhelm and sink any Battleship long before it gets in range...a good case being the Yamato at the end of WW2....

thanks

[Vympel]

I do not disagree that these weapons would penterate the armor, my point is that these ships were designed to take many hits like this and still survive and function.....

A hit from an early 20th century 12 inch shell (I'm presuming that the Dreadnought had the armor to stand up to its own guns) and a 1980s supersonic missile that weighs 7,000kg isn't exactly equivalent. One hit would be enough to render her combat ineffective.

The main reason that Battleships are not used anymore (except they are quite good at shore bombardment is that aircraft can overwhelm and sink any Battleship long before it gets in range...a good case being the Yamato at the end of WW2....

thanks

That's what I usually hear, Sea Skimmer may have more on that matter- suffice to say that the battleship in WW2 was by no means the sitting duck she was popularly made out to be- a surprising number remained in service after WW2 but a burning issue was the cost of upgrading them- proposals often including removing some of the 16'' turrets on the Iowa for example, which would cost an enormous amount.

[Sea Skimmer]

Another clueless battleship fan. I've slaughtered so many its no longer fun. But since this one doesn’t seem very rapid I'll be nice and explain things and his massive errors in detail.

If you allow the Kirov to use nukes I would agree with you but if you limit her to conventional warheads it is unlikely she could sink the Dreadnought.

Incorrect. She will utterly ass rape the Dreadnought, and nineteen other cap ships of her vintage with P-700's. Then it's another eight or so with S-300's, then a couple more with torpedoes. The Kirov has the ability to wipe out the entire British Grand Fleet battleline.

Dreadnoughts or super dreadnaughts as the later classes (Queen Elizabeth Class, Revenge and so forth were designed to take many heavy shell hits (The warspite survived over 30 heavy shell hits with no lose in fighting abilitly at Jutland and the Kirov only carries 40 missiles in her magazine

Actually Warspite took 15 hits from 11.1 and 12-inch guns at Jutland. She suffered the loss of one main battery gun, several secondary guns and extensive damage above the armor deck.
Total weight of heavy shellfire, 11,622 approximately pounds
Total weight of explosives contained within: approximately 430 pounds

Now lets compare that with Kirov's main armament, the P-700
P-700 weight: 15,000 pounds
P-700 warhead: 1,650 pounds

So a single P-700 impact has a greater punch then all the fire Warspite took at Jutland. Furthermore between 1/3 and ½ of that weight is rocket fuel. Most will be unburned on impact and will be ignited and spread by the blast though out the ship. This alone will be fatal, the equipment needed effectively fight rocket fuel fires will no t exist until the mid 60's, and as it is a WW1 warship would be hard pressed to cope with AVGAS fires.

Kirov does not carry 40 missiles. She has 20 P-700 anti ship missiles, 96 S-300's which can be fired as SSM's as well, 40 Osa's, which can also be, used as SSM's and 2 Metel missiles which delivery small torpedoes. They can also be used against surface ships.

On the other hand if the Dreadnought coud close to effective range (about 20,000 yards) or 40,000 years for more modern ships (HMS Renown hit a Italian Battleship at 42,000 yards in WW2)

The max reach of her guns is 18,000 yards, however the fire control cannot cope with targets at over about 10,000. Kirov on the other hand can reach out 200 miles with her P-700's. Only the best of guns can pass 40,000 yards, and even then you need a Blindfire gunnery radar to get hits beyond 30,000. Those won't be around till early 1944 and many nation didn't have them until the 50's.

Renown didn't hit a battleship or anything at 42,000 yards. Her guns can only reach out to 28,000 yards and in any case the longest range hit by a capital vessel on another was at about 26,000 yards.

Here is how the battle is going to really go. One of Kirov's Ka-27's finds the battleship about 100 miles off. Kirov launches one P-700 missile against it. The missile blasts though the belt armor and causes massive damage along with a huge fire. The crew begins abandoning ship about 10 minutes later and within a half hour the fires have reached the magazines and destroy the already combat ineffective ship.

Hell even without her P-700's Kirov can start the same massive fires with LOS S-300 fire and if you take away missiles completely she can still just fire a couple 21 inch torpedoes over the side and blow the thing out of the water. A single hit would snap the keel and that's the end of it.

Even ignoring all that, the AT-6 missiles her helicopters can carry could easily destroy every main battery turret and leave the ship defenseless against anything bigger then a pre 1900 torpedo boat.

[Sea Skimmer]

Federation vs. the Empire isn't Dreadnought against the Kirov. Its more like Kuznetsov loaded with rocket laden Ka-50's against the 1571 Islamic galley fleet at Lepanto.

[Vympel]

Now there's a cool mental image.

I wonder what would happen if the Kirov was out of missiles and closed to gun range?

AK-130

twin 130mm/70 (5.1 inch) on triaxially stabilized mounts

Range: 23,000m or 25.150 yards

Fire control system: MP-184 Fire Control Radar System, which include a 2-band radar, low light TV, laser designator, system for selecting moving targets and an ESM system. This system has a range of 75 km (41 nm). The system provides the integration of all of the shipboard radars, exact measurement of all parameters of movement for all air, sea and land targets, exact bearing to the target, correction of shooting by splashes and automatic tracking of shells.

Projectile type: F-44 High Explosive round. weight, 33.4kg, muzzle velocity 850m/s or 2,788f/s.

So, would the Kirov with its inferior gun firepower but far superior FCS and about equal range destroy the Dreadnought with well placed hits?

[Tsyroc]

Is the P-700 the same as the SS-N-19 or is it a new upgrade?


Either way, it is going to blow the crap out of a WWI battleship.

[The Yosemite Bear]

Your right it's closer to the ships of line of another century...

Scotty: The Sails and the Mainmast cannna take the strain...

[Vympel]

Is the P-700 the same as the SS-N-19 or is it a new upgrade?


Either way, it is going to blow the crap out of a WWI battleship.

Same weapon. It is also a common misconception that the Granit (SS-N-19 SHIPWRECK) is related to the Bazalt (SS-N-12 SANDBOX)- this is NOT the case.

[Sea Skimmer]

Is the P-700 the same as the SS-N-19 or is it a new upgrade?


Either way, it is going to blow the crap out of a WWI battleship.

Same weapon. It is also a common misconception that the Granit (SS-N-19 SHIPWRECK) is related to the Bazalt (SS-N-12 SANDBOX)- this is NOT the case.

SANDBOX has twice the warhead for starters...

Kirov doesnt have AK-130, it has dual AK-100 mounts. It was the later three which mounted AK-130

[Vympel]

SANDBOX has twice the warhead for starters...

Really? 1500kg HE then? Fwar.

Kirov doesnt have AK-130, it has dual AK-100 mounts. It was the later three which mounted AK-130

True, I was thinking of its three companions rather than the first of class- Kirov/Admiral Ushakov is so different from them anyway.

Speaking of which- do the Soviets call their own ships he or she?

[Sea Skimmer]

SANDBOX has twice the warhead for starters...

Really? 1500kg HE then? Fwar.

Kirov doesnt have AK-130, it has dual AK-100 mounts. It was the later three which mounted AK-130

True, I was thinking of its three companions rather than the first of class- Kirov/Admiral Ushakov is so different from them anyway.

Speaking of which- do the Soviets call their own ships he or she?

It's evidently something like 1250 kilograms in some versions rather then the often-reported 1000. Not really twice, but a really freaked big difference anyway.

All Russian ships are he, and they also call submarines ships rather then boats. So everything is he.

[Sea Skimmer]

Your right it's closer to the ships of line of another century...

Scotty: The Sails and the Mainmast cannna take the strain...

Not even ships of the line, more like "The salve control matrix has an inverse stamina drain, we need to recalibrate the wipe drive assembly and drum conducts to prevent an overload."

[The Yosemite Bear]

Got to watch out the Romulons have a been launching Hellbores (Fireships, or a rowboat laden with gunpowder & incindiaries)