Yep, Executor's 19000 meters...

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Post by Ender »

Batman wrote:
Ender wrote:However, we know the briefing to be based on bad intel and fleet scands during the battle detect the shield in the novel.
Could you be bothered to elaborate? I'm not saying there's NO shield protecting Endor, just that there's a seperate one from the DS shield.
Unless the novelisation states they're the same?
Novel states they both went down at the same time.
page 470 wrote:A captain ran up to Admiral Ackbar, his voice tremulous. "Sir, the shield around the Death Star has lost its power."
Ackbar looked at the view-screen; the electronically generated web was gone. The moon, and the Death Star, now floated in black, empty, unprotected space.
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Post by Batman »

Much obliged. So even if there were two both go down. So much for that approach.
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Post by Anguirus »

Ah. Still leaves open the possibility that the Endor shield was reactivated as the battle ended. One would expect General Solo to have that much of a sense of self-preservation.

SOMETHING averted the Endor Holocaust.
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Post by Ender »

Anguirus wrote:Ah. Still leaves open the possibility that the Endor shield was reactivated as the battle ended. One would expect General Solo to have that much of a sense of self-preservation.

SOMETHING averted the Endor Holocaust.
They had a small portable one on the shuttle that they activated to protect themselves. Its mentioned in the OT ITW.
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Post by Stark »

That's cute. SOMETHING must have!

The rebel fleet maneuvered to place itself between the DS2 and the planet. Their shields may have been used to absorb direct radiation exposure before the temporary shield could be raised, but claiming anything the rebel fleet could do would stop a large proportion of the DS2s mass entering the atmosphere it absurd. They can't tractor millions of times their mass, travelling at very high relative speeds.
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Post by OmegaGuy »

Well then how long was the Eclipse?
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Post by Vympel »

Same size it's always been, only still more massive by volume than an Executor-class.

Not that I've ever liked the Eclipse. Wanked out piece of crap.
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Post by OmegaGuy »

If the Eclipse is wanked out, then what does that make the Death Star?
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Post by 000 »

... not wanked out?

I think Vympel's referring to the fact that the Eclipse was a Star Destroyer... that was twice the length (intended to be, at least) of the Executor, had a bunch of gravwell generators, impervious "quantum armor," a whole mess of guns, and a superlaser (that cracks planets!) to boot. The ship was blatantly designed to one-up the Executor.

Plus, it was ugly.
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Post by Connor MacLeod »

Stark wrote:That's cute. SOMETHING must have!
Something must have at least minimized it, since the Rebels and ewoks were still alive hours later. (To say nothing of the fact that the debris ought to have impacted within a minute of the DS's exploding..) the amount of KE involved is well above the extinction-level threshhold.
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Post by Jadeite »

000 wrote:... not wanked out?

I think Vympel's referring to the fact that the Eclipse was a Star Destroyer... that was twice the length (intended to be, at least) of the Executor, had a bunch of gravwell generators, impervious "quantum armor," a whole mess of guns, and a superlaser (that cracks planets!) to boot. The ship was blatantly designed to one-up the Executor.

Plus, it was ugly.
I'd love to be the captain though, you know his personal quarters had to be *huge*.

Hell, in the ITW, Admiral Piett's quarters on the Executor were the length of the bridge, unknown how wide, and had its own personal escape pod.
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Post by Vympel »

What 000 said, exactly.

The ugly part is especially egregious- the big bow ruins the entire ship, as far as I'm concerned. UGLY. UGLY. UGLY!
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Post by OmegaGuy »

I don't know, I thought it was kind of cool looking, sort of looked like an old battleship.
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Post by Stark »

Connor MacLeod wrote:
Stark wrote:That's cute. SOMETHING must have!
Something must have at least minimized it, since the Rebels and ewoks were still alive hours later. (To say nothing of the fact that the debris ought to have impacted within a minute of the DS's exploding..) the amount of KE involved is well above the extinction-level threshhold.
Yeah, and the position of the rebel fleet suggests while the DS2 was rocking from internal explosions there were already preparing to protect their ground team. The radiation could have been shielded by covering starships and the larger bits blown up or slightly changed in direction. This doesn't prevent Endor, shieldless and in such proximity, from being ecologically destroyed. The rebels certainly lacked the power to protect the entire moon.
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Post by nightmare »

000 wrote:impervious "quantum armor,"
Where does it say this?
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Post by Connor MacLeod »

Stark wrote: Yeah, and the position of the rebel fleet suggests while the DS2 was rocking from internal explosions there were already preparing to protect their ground team. The radiation could have been shielded by covering starships and the larger bits blown up or slightly changed in direction. This doesn't prevent Endor, shieldless and in such proximity, from being ecologically destroyed. The rebels certainly lacked the power to protect the entire moon.
Did you even bother reading what I posted, or did you just decide to repeat your argument and hope I wouldn't pay attention?
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Post by Stark »

Connor MacLeod wrote:Did you even bother reading what I posted, or did you just decide to repeat your argument and hope I wouldn't pay attention?
Did you even say anything? 'Something must have minimised it' = addressed, 'rebels and ewoks alive hours later' = addressed, 'amount of KE involved is well above the extinction-level threshold' isn't a disagreement. I'm not actually sure what you were getting at, since I'd already mentioned possible mitigating mechanisms - none of which you addressed - and it appears you agree with me anyway.
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Post by Connor MacLeod »

Stark wrote: Did you even say anything? 'Something must have minimised it' = addressed, 'rebels and ewoks alive hours later' = addressed, 'amount of KE involved is well above the extinction-level threshold' isn't a disagreement. I'm not actually sure what you were getting at, since I'd already mentioned possible mitigating mechanisms - none of which you addressed - and it appears you agree with me anyway.
Gee, I didn't think that would be that difficult for you to figure out.

Well, ,shall we go over the details then?

The explosion of the 2nd Death Star releases a fuckload of energy. One way to look at it is via the fact the Emperor intended to destroy Endor. If we assume mass scattering, that comes out to somewhere in the e30-31 joule range minimum.

Another way to look at it is to estimate the 2nd DS's mass (at least some 3e20 kg by volume, assuming 90% empty, and iron density. This is conservative however, given Curti's comment about the DS2's escape velocity later in the Holocaust page and the fact that SW materials aren't iron.) and compute the KE based on the fireball expansion given on Curtis' Endor Holocaust page (around 80 km/s for the fireball, though some of the debris he notes moves considerably faster) - comes out to around the e30 joule range.

1e9 megatoins (around 4e24 joules) is the threshold for a global extinction event according to the Planet Killers page. This has all sorts of nasty effects accompanying it - superheated ejecta and dust loading, global firestorms, air blasts and ground quakes, etc.) We're talking about many many orders of magntiude MORE energy than this! Hell, the multi-TT chunks Curtis mentions alone would have many TT's worth of KE by themselves. Those alone will be nasty (TT range can destroy a large nation or even a continent, and will produce massive firestorms, air blasts, and groundquakes as a result. Many of these effects are at "ground level", ,which only compounds the problem o fhow the Rebels shield against it.)

On top of that, there is also the superheated particulate matter comprisiing the fireball (as well as any other smaller particulaet matter.) Once they interact with the atmosphere, they're going to heat it up (again, bringing up the issue of firestorms.) The Rebel fleet can do very little to directly affect any of this, because even if they deflect the impacts to occur on other parts of the planet, the magnitude of the energy involved guarantees a global effect, even if you were to assume only a tiny fraction of the actual energy I calced above is to strike (say, a millionth, you're still near the "billion megaton" threshhold.)

What's more, you could easily expect these effects ot occur within a minute or so of the DS2's destruction, given the Debris is moving at nearly 100 km/s and is only a few thousand km away from the moon. Yet the Rebels clearly are seen surviving until many hours AFTER the destruction (indeed they're fucking celebrating, which is the most idiotic thing one can do if the planet is literally dying around you, much less doing it hours after the fact.)

Now, does that make it any clearer for you, or do you need me to explain why the impact effects and the magnitude of the energy are such a problem even with the Rebel fleet providing "protection"?

Edit: This is precisely why I mentioned the repulsor. Using the Repulsor would clearly allow them to avert the actual threat of a massive input of energy into the Sancuary moon itself, thus preventing any immediately fatal effects (air blast, firestorms, dust loading) from immediately occuring. There would still be potential pollution, dust loading effects (climate being affected by the debris blocking out the sunlight) and the effects of the high-momentum impact (since there is no way they can block the momentum, its still going to cause nasty effects to the ground.)
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Post by Stark »

Nope, still not getting it. Endor has no defence against the explosion and related effects except the rebel fleet, and perhaps later the portashield the commandoes brought with them. So I figure the fleet provided a measure of protection.

You list the effects of the explosion and describe the impossibility of the effects being averted. So... what's your point? They clearly were averted, at least locally and temporarily. Since you're not going to tell me what you're talking about, I'll just assume you figure there was a planetary shield in place. Clearly something had to protect at least the area around the commandoes, but I was under the impression Endor was unshielded.

With regards to the repulsor (which I guess had to still be working, since DS2 didn't fall out of the sky) it's obviously capable of supporting the DS2s mass. Would it be capable of deflecting the high-speed mass headed directly at the moon?
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Post by Spanky The Dolphin »

nightmare wrote:
000 wrote:impervious "quantum armor,"
Where does it say this?
Nowhere.
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Post by nightmare »

Spanky The Dolphin wrote:
nightmare wrote:
000 wrote:impervious "quantum armor,"
Where does it say this?
Nowhere.
Much as I thought, but I couldn't be 100% certain, given the Quantum armor whoring KJA put up after Darksaber.
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Post by 000 »

I'm almost positive that the Essential Guide to Vehicles and Vessels says that (about the quantum armor). I don't have a copy on hand, so I can't be a hundred percent sure.
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Post by Spanky The Dolphin »

The only thing that had quantum armour was the Sun Crusher, and IIRC, producing armour for something the size of a starfighter cost about as much as a full Star Destroyer.

I only have the old version of the EGTV&V, and it makes no mention of quantum armour; just that Eclipse's shields and hull were strong enough to ram other starships.
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Post by 000 »

Thanks, I must have misremembered.
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Post by Surlethe »

Stark wrote:With regards to the repulsor (which I guess had to still be working, since DS2 didn't fall out of the sky) it's obviously capable of supporting the DS2s mass. Would it be capable of deflecting the high-speed mass headed directly at the moon?
If a repulsor works as an antigravitational field, we can simply assume it will cause a deviation in the net gravitational field of the sanctuary moon. Assuming it is positioned on the ground beneath the Death Star, it will actually create a negative net acceleration at all points beneath the battle station, which would, of course, seriously hamper the debris from falling. If I have time this afternoon, I'll give some thought to deriving numbers for the strength of the repulsor (under the assumption of an antigravity field) and post them here with conclusions.
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