The Eucharist has proven human DNA in it??

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Justforfun000
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The Eucharist has proven human DNA in it??

Post by Justforfun000 »

Ok, how do you take shit like this that someone throws out at you as a link and invalidate it. I don't mean a logical argument, I mean the reference down below (in bold) to the scientists who supposedly did this. Is there a general website to go to verify credible studies? Anything to check what really is peer-reviewed, maybe even a sliding scale of 1 to 10 stars about how solid a proposed theory might be?

I mean in medical research, you can go to the JAMA to start. Is there anything along this line?

http://www.therealpresence.org/eucharst ... ciano.html
Eucharistic Miracle
Lanciano, Italy 8th Century A.D.


Ancient Anxanum, the city of the Frentanese, has contained for over twelve centuries the first and greatest Eucharistic Miracle of the Catholic Church. This wondrous Event took place in the 8th century A.D. in the little Church of St. Legontian, as a divine response to a Basilian monk's doubt about Jesus' Real Presence in the Eucharist.

During Holy Mass, after the two-fold consecration, the host was changed into live Flesh and the wine was changed into live Blood, which coagulated into five globules, irregular and differing in shape and size.

The Host-Flesh, as can be very distinctly observed today, has the same dimensions as the large host used today in the Latin church; it is light brown and appears rose-colored when lighted from the back.

The Blood is coagulated and has an earthy color resembling the yellow of ochre.

Various ecclesiastical investigation ("Recognitions") were conducted since 1574.

In 1970-'71 and taken up again partly in 1981 there took place a scientific investigation by the most illustrious scientist Prof. Odoardo Linoli, eminent Professor in Anatomy and Pathological Histology and in Chemistry and Clinical Microscopy. He was assisted by Prof. Ruggero Bertelli of the University of Siena.
The analyses were conducted with absolute and unquestionable scientific precision and they were documented with a series of microscopic photographs.
These analyses sustained the following conclusions:

The Flesh is real Flesh. The Blood is real Blood.


The Flesh and the Blood belong to the human species.


The Flesh consists of the muscular tissue of the heart.


In the Flesh we see present in section: the myocardium, the endocardium, the vagus nerve and also the left ventricle of the heart for the large thickness of the myocardium.


The Flesh is a "HEART" complete in its essential structure.


The Flesh and the Blood have the same blood-type: AB (Blood-type identical to that which Prof. Baima Bollone uncovered in the Holy Shroud of Turin).


In the Blood there were found proteins in the same normal proportions (percentage-wise) as are found in the sero-proteic make-up of the fresh normal blood.


In the Blood there were also found these minerals: chlorides, phosphorus, magnesium, potassium, sodium and calcium.


The preservation of the Flesh and of the Blood, which were left in their natural state for twelve centuries and exposed to the action of atmospheric and biological agents, remains an extraordinary phenomenon.

Fig. 1 - Eosine x 200. Overall histological aspect of a Flesh sample with fibers collected in bundles with longitudinal orientation as it occurs in the outer surface layers of the heart.

Fig. 2 - Miracle Heart in Lanciano. Mallory x 250. An artery and, very close, a branch of the vagal nerve.

Fig. 3 - Miracle Heart in Lanciano. Mallory x 400. Evidence of the "Rough" aspect of the endocardium; the syncytoid structure of the myocardial tissue

Fig. 4 - Elution-absorption test x 80. Above: Hemagglutination test on blood sample in Lanciano: on the left, anti A serum used; on the right, anti-B serum. Below: hemoagglutination test on a Flesh sample in Lanciano: left, with anti-A serum, right,with anti-B serum. It appears thus that the Flesh and the Blood in Lanciano belong to AB blood group.

Fig. 5 - Electro-phoretic pattern of Blood proteins (Cromoscan photometer). The profile of serum fractions is normal and superimposable to that of a fresh serum sample.



In conclusion, it may be said that Science, when called upon to testify, has given a certain and thorough response as regards the authenticity of the Eucharistic Miracle of Lanciano.
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Post by CaptainChewbacca »

I'm wary of any scientist that is "illustrious". Don't know why, but I am.
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Post by Vendetta »

So, the makers of an ancient holy relic went to unusual lengths to produce a convincing fake, persuading some poor unfortunate to part with some blood and guts, and then did a quick sleight of hand transubstantiation for the baying crowd?

The whole concept of holy relics is rooted in hucksterism.
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Post by Surlethe »

I don't know that it's a reliable source, given the apologetics-oriented website and lack of detail. If that Eucharist is really a standing miracle, then there should be no problems giving it over to a scientifically acclaimed society to test it. I also object to the miracle on philosophical grounds; after all, reasoning from first principles, suppose God is a supernatural being. Then there can exist no natural evidence for him, since natural evidence would relegate God to the arena of scientific inquiry and thus, by its very definition, make God a natural phenomenon. Hence, any miracle which exists must be arbitrary and beyond scientific investigation, if God is to remain supernatural.
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Post by General Trelane (Retired) »

The analyses were conducted with absolute and unquestionable scientific precision and they were documented with a series of microscopic photographs.
This sets off defeaning alarm bells in my head (the bells. . .the bells. . .they torment me). There is no such thing as absolute precision, and just how does unquestionable precision rate? Must be better than damned-good precision, I guess.

Makes me wonder who would use such an article to prove anything. Even if the study is legitimate, it can say nothing about the source of the human tissue and blood. And if they did originate from the transubstantiation of the bread and wine, then why were these elements not properly consumed or returned to the earth as is proper practise?

This is an excellent example that if you throw enough scientific-sounding words together, some people will accept it without really examining it.
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Post by DPDarkPrimus »

A google search for the professors brings up NOTHING other than page after page of repeat of the same story.

Illustrious professors who don't have any credentials, and don't appear to have done any other experiments other than the one? SAY IT ISN'T SO!
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Post by Darth Raptor »

CaptainChewbacca wrote:I'm wary of any scientist that is "illustrious". Don't know why, but I am.
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Post by Bounty »

If these "ilustrious" professors exist, didn't they simply prove that some poor sod was gutted in the 8th C and his entrails used as a (no doubt lucrative) tourist attraction ?

Really, the only thing there that strikes me as unusual is the supposed excellent preservation and even that isn't impossible given the proper circumstances. All throughout the Middle Ages there was an industry spitting out "miraculous" items and "authentic" relics, it's not unusual to find one preserved.
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Post by TheBlackCat »

I don't know how we are possibly supposed to draw conclusions from a bunch of thumbnails. I can tell you one thing, those photographs definitely are microscopic ;)

It was a bit difficult for me to find the article they are talking about. There seem to be several O. Linoli, one of whom seems to do research on smooth muscle.

However, I ultimately found it: Histological, immunological and biochemiccal studies on the flesh and blood of the eucharistic miracle of Lanciano (8th century), [i.e Ricerche istologiche, immunologiche e biochimiche sulla carne e sul sangue del miracolo eucaristico di Lanciano] Quaderni Sclavo di diagnostica clinica e di laboratorio., by Linoli O. No mention is made of Ruggero Bertelli in this citation. Unfortunately none of the databases I have access to have anything more than this and a few keywords, not even an abstract. Sorry I couldn't be more helpful
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Post by Ender »

In the Flesh we see present in section: the myocardium, the endocardium, the vagus nerve and also the left ventricle of the heart for the large thickness of the myocardium.
the vagus nerve is in the thumb.
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Post by CaptainChewbacca »

Darth Raptor wrote:
CaptainChewbacca wrote:I'm wary of any scientist that is "illustrious". Don't know why, but I am.
He sparkles under the proper lighting.
^That explains the wariness.
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Post by Darth RyanKCR »

Ender wrote:
In the Flesh we see present in section: the myocardium, the endocardium, the vagus nerve and also the left ventricle of the heart for the large thickness of the myocardium.
the vagus nerve is in the thumb.
Actually the Vagus nerve of one of the Cranial nerves. It has a branch to the heart. During an early surgery on my heart it was nicked and now my left iris does not react to light correctly.

From: http://www.meddean.luc.edu/lumen/meded/ ... 1/cn10.htm
In the thorax branches go to the lungs for bronchoconstriction, the esophagus for peristalsis and the heart for slowing of heart rate.
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Post by Il Saggiatore »

It seems that the italian version of the CSICOP, the CICAP, is going to try its own investigation.
See here (in Italian).

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Post by Baron Scarpia »

The easiest immediate response is that the scientists only confirmed that the things they examined were real human blood and flesh. However, that in no way proves what the article claims, that it was a denuine eucharistic miracle. No evidence was provided that the remains were really from the 8th century, much less that they got there via miracle. So the claim that the experiments validated the supposed miracle isn't even bourne out by the facts presented in the article.

Beyond that, merely citing the experiment from over 30 years ago without actually providing the text of their conclusion further limits the usefulness of the claim. We don't take it on faith that those who wrote the article are being truthful, since religionistas are frequently caught in overt lies.
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Post by Gil Hamilton »

CaptainChewbacca wrote:^That explains the wariness.
Prehaps he glistens with Nerd Sweat. :)
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Post by Lord Zentei »

The Eucharist has proven human DNA in it?

CLONING!!

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Post by Ender »

Darth RyanKCR wrote:
Ender wrote:
In the Flesh we see present in section: the myocardium, the endocardium, the vagus nerve and also the left ventricle of the heart for the large thickness of the myocardium.
the vagus nerve is in the thumb.
Actually the Vagus nerve of one of the Cranial nerves. It has a branch to the heart. During an early surgery on my heart it was nicked and now my left iris does not react to light correctly.

From: http://www.meddean.luc.edu/lumen/meded/ ... 1/cn10.htm
In the thorax branches go to the lungs for bronchoconstriction, the esophagus for peristalsis and the heart for slowing of heart rate.
It's also in the thumb.
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Post by Darth RyanKCR »

Ender wrote:
Darth RyanKCR wrote:
Ender wrote: the vagus nerve is in the thumb.
Actually the Vagus nerve of one of the Cranial nerves. It has a branch to the heart. During an early surgery on my heart it was nicked and now my left iris does not react to light correctly.

From: http://www.meddean.luc.edu/lumen/meded/ ... 1/cn10.htm
In the thorax branches go to the lungs for bronchoconstriction, the esophagus for peristalsis and the heart for slowing of heart rate.
It's also in the thumb.
Actually a branch of the median nerve is in the thunb. http://mywebpages.comcast.net/wnor/less ... ofhand.htm

Where did you hear that it was the vagus and what would the vagus nerve be doing in the thumb?


As for the topic. What was probably found was residue from handling it. We all leave our mark on anything we touch.
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Post by wolveraptor »

He found heart cells. I've heard of wearing your heart on your sleeve, but leaving parts of it on everything you touch is a bit much.Thank you ladies and gentlement, I'll be here all week. :P

But it surely doesn't have to be heartcells from transmogrified bread.
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Post by Frank Hipper »

Lord Zentei wrote:The Eucharist has proven human DNA in it?
Yeah, priests jerk off into the batter. :lol:
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Post by Molyneux »

...if that article is untrue, then that guy's a fucking liar.
If it is true, then Catholicism is undisputably based off of a cannibalistic act.

Don't they realize just how much of a shitstorm they may be unleashing, here?
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Post by NecronLord »

Given that the eucharist's consecration was at that time, done behind a 'rood screen' that obscured the view of the audience, and that's supposedly when this transubstantiation took place, the obvious conclusion is that they took some poor schmuck's heart out, put it in, and said 'a miracle' to get that nice pilgrim money rolling in.
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Post by Gil Hamilton »

Eric Finch in [i]V for Vendetta[/i] wrote:We just had the path reports through. The bishop was poisoned. The Host was full of cyanide. And you know what? When it reached his abdomin, it was still full of cyanide.
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Post by dworkin »

Still think the best relic is the "Skull of the Christ Child, aged 12"

Gets me rolling in the aisles every time.
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Post by Manus Celer Dei »

Lord Zentei wrote:The Eucharist has proven human DNA in it?

CLONING!!

We'll have a Jesus Clone army! RAR!!
What, are we going to have to update the damn listagain?
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