Sony is screwed

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2006-03-14 01:59pm

Link

Sony loses round in DualShock patent case

By Tom Krazit
http://news.com.com/Sony+loses+round+in ... 49177.html

Story last modified Tue Mar 14 05:37:58 PST 2006

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A judge has denied Sony's plea to overturn a patent infringement verdict that could potentially shut down sales of the PlayStation game console.

Last week, Judge Claudia Wilken of the U.S. District Court for the Northern District of California ruled that Sony had not proven that patent holder Immersion attempted to conceal information in its dispute with Sony over vibrating game controllers. Sony is therefore not entitled, she ruled, to relief from a judgment that it violated Immersion's patents.

In 2004, Sony lost a patent infringement case brought by Immersion, which licenses technology called "haptics" that allow game controllers and other devices to vibrate in response to events such as getting tackled during a game of "Madden NFL 2006."

A jury ruled that Sony's DualShock controllers infringed on Immersion's technology, and awarded Immersion $82 million. That amount was later increased to $90.7 million, and Wilken entered an injunction on U.S. sales of PlayStation consoles, controllers and games that use the vibrating technology. That injunction was stayed pending an appeal, which is currently in process in a federal appeals court.

Sony claimed that Immersion had concealed its conversations with an inventor, Craig Thorner, who had patented similar technology prior to Immersion. Lawyers for Sony argued that Immersion had tried to prevent Sony from learning that Thorner had developed prototypes based on his patents by hiring Thorner as a consultant. Immersion, however, argued that Sony could have discovered the information during the trial but chose not to, and the judge agreed.

Immersion has licensed the technology in question to companies such as Logitech and Microsoft, said Vic Viegas, Immersion's chief executive officer. Sony has been paying Immersion 1.37 percent of its quarterly revenue from PlayStation sales under a compulsory license ordered by the judge, but Immersion's standard rate is 5 percent, and the company hopes to use the injunction to force a settlement deal that reflects the higher rate, he said.

A Sony representative declined to comment on pending litigation.

Briefings in the appeal are expected to conclude this month.

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Vendetta · Post by **Vendetta** » 2006-03-14 02:54pm

You think?

Seriously?

This is pocket change to a company the size of Sony. Hardware sales (which the award to Immersion covers) are not the way they make revenue from the console, they make it by charging lisencing fees to developers to release products on it, and publishing software titles.

Admiral Valdemar · Post by **Admiral Valdemar** » 2006-03-14 03:16pm

Oh no, not $100M, perish the thought. Some companies get fined $1M a day in this country that aren't anywhere near Sony's size, yet, amazingly, they're still around.

And I'd love to see them remove the PS from the stores along with the PS2 and future PS3 launch. Shouldn't every console be under scrutiny because of this technology or did Ninty and MS pay the piper?

NeoGoomba · Post by **NeoGoomba** » 2006-03-14 03:57pm

Admiral Valdemar wrote:
And I'd love to see them remove the PS from the stores along with the PS2 and future PS3 launch. Shouldn't every console be under scrutiny because of this technology or did Ninty and MS pay the piper?

I was under the impression that Nintendo developed their own backmassaging controller in-house.

Lancer · Post by **Lancer** » 2006-03-14 04:04pm

Admiral Valdemar wrote:And I'd love to see them remove the PS from the stores along with the PS2 and future PS3 launch. Shouldn't every console be under scrutiny because of this technology or did Ninty and MS pay the piper?

Microsoft and Logitech were listed as license-holders in the article. So presumably, yes, they did pay the piper.

Admiral Valdemar · Post by **Admiral Valdemar** » 2006-03-14 04:22pm

My accursed tired brain didn't register that info. In that case, this was a silly move assuming Sony cannot appeal and overturn this with new, better evidence.

Archaic` · Post by **Archaic`** » 2006-03-14 04:39pm

While I have no problem in principle with seeing Sony taken down a notch, the injunction includes the halting of sale of some games using rumble features, which frankly makes no sense to me whatsoever. It's not like the software cares what type of rumble the controller that's plugged in has.

Wicked Pilot · Post by **Wicked Pilot** » 2006-03-14 05:01pm

Off topic but what's the real point of vibrating game controllers anyway? I've used them a few times and thought they were pretty stupid. At least if you're a female they serve a secondary purpose, so maybe it's a ploy to get women into the gaming market.

Flagg · Post by **Flagg** » 2006-03-14 05:41pm

Wicked Pilot wrote:Off topic but what's the real point of vibrating game controllers anyway? I've used them a few times and thought they were pretty stupid. At least if you're a female they serve a secondary purpose, so maybe it's a ploy to get women into the gaming market.

Supposedly it makes games more immersive. To be honest I don't even notice it anymore.

Stark · Post by **Stark** » 2006-03-14 05:44pm

Yeah, I think these days it's just a marketing checkbox. It doesn't really *do* anything.

Spyder · Post by **Spyder** » 2006-03-14 06:57pm

I usually switch them off, I find them more annoying them anything.

The Dark · Post by **The Dark** » 2006-03-14 08:20pm

I notice it for some racing games and certain action games (Robotech), where it does help somewhat, but most of the time it's just a frill.

Praxis · Post by **Praxis** » 2006-03-14 08:25pm

Matt Huang wrote:
Admiral Valdemar wrote:And I'd love to see them remove the PS from the stores along with the PS2 and future PS3 launch. Shouldn't every console be under scrutiny because of this technology or did Ninty and MS pay the piper?
Microsoft and Logitech were listed as license-holders in the article. So presumably, yes, they did pay the piper.

Microsoft got sued too, but settled out of court and paid $40 million and bought stock in the company.

Adrian Laguna · Post by **Adrian Laguna** » 2006-03-14 09:53pm

Wicked Pilot wrote:Off topic but what's the real point of vibrating game controllers anyway? I've used them a few times and thought they were pretty stupid. At least if you're a female they serve a secondary purpose, so maybe it's a ploy to get women into the gaming market.

I've liked vibrating controllers ever since I got StarFox 64 and the included Rumble Pack. Doesn't really do much, but I like feeling the vibrations as shit blows-up in the screen. The only game I can think of where it is actually useful is Zelda, where the "Stone of Agony" can help you find interesting stuff if you have a Rumble Pack.

Admiral Valdemar · Post by **Admiral Valdemar** » 2006-03-14 09:59pm

Really, until you use a neural jack for that full virtual experience, a rumbling blob of plastic isn't going to really simulate the experience of punching someone in an arena, or driving at 200 MPH or being blown to pieces by a bomb. There's a reason it's something that's not caught on with PC peripherals. Imagine a vibrating mouse when playing CS:S and how fracking annoying it'd be.

Adrian Laguna · Post by **Adrian Laguna** » 2006-03-14 10:52pm

Admiral Valdemar wrote:There's a reason it's something that's not caught on with PC peripherals. Imagine a vibrating mouse when playing CS:S and how fracking annoying it'd be.

I like force feedback in joysticks, and would like vibration if I ever got a gamepad for my PC. However, I prefer my mouse to be perfectly smooth all the time. Besides, the only place where force feedback would make sense is in an FPS or similar game not a strategy game. Since my aim sucks enough as is (in America's Army I get kills when someone steps in front of me while looking the other way), I don't need something to make it worse.

TheBlackCat · Post by **TheBlackCat** » 2006-03-14 11:26pm

Admiral Valdemar wrote:There's a reason it's something that's not caught on with PC peripherals.

You would be hard-pressed to find a modern PC game pad without a built-in rumble feature. Many joysticks also have force-feedback, albiet no where near as many as gamepads. Certainly it doesn't make sense with mice because it would make control impossible, there is a similar albiet less severe problem with joysticks, but pretty much every recent gamepad out there, PC or console, has a rumble feature.

Chris OFarrell · Post by **Chris OFarrell** » 2006-03-15 12:28am

Matt Huang wrote:
Admiral Valdemar wrote:And I'd love to see them remove the PS from the stores along with the PS2 and future PS3 launch. Shouldn't every console be under scrutiny because of this technology or did Ninty and MS pay the piper?
Microsoft and Logitech were listed as license-holders in the article. So presumably, yes, they did pay the piper.

IIRC Microsoft quickly settled out of court and got a licence agreement for development of the technology. Sony instead decided to fight it out and it looks like they are going to be paying rather more money...

Shogoki · Post by **Shogoki** » 2006-03-15 12:29am

Force feedback on joysticks and steering wheels actually add to the gaming experience, but the purpose of rumbling gamepads has always eluded me, first time i experienced one was with the N64, tried it for a lvl, turned it off, it's been that way every since, it doesn't add any real immersion and it isn't useful for gameplay, well, i guess that MGS level was nice, but aside from the gimmick factor, at best, i find it annoying, at worst, i loath it for making console fps even more imprecise to control.

Adrian Laguna · Post by **Adrian Laguna** » 2006-03-15 01:36am

Shogoki wrote:I loath it for making console fps even more imprecise to control.

Say what? The rumble pack doesn't make aiming more difficult. At least not for me. There is a difference in my aim in Perfect Dark when I remove the Pack... it becomes worse because I'm not used to having the N64 controller be so light.

Uraniun235 · Post by **Uraniun235** » 2006-03-15 01:38am

Admiral Valdemar wrote:Really, until you use a neural jack for that full virtual experience, a rumbling blob of plastic isn't going to really simulate the experience of punching someone in an arena, or driving at 200 MPH or being blown to pieces by a bomb. There's a reason it's something that's not caught on with PC peripherals. Imagine a vibrating mouse when playing CS:S and how fracking annoying it'd be.

I always thought the force-feedback in I-War was awesome. Nice and subtle, too... until you started getting hulled, at which point the joystick really started bucking. But then, force feedback joysticks don't just vibrate.

Admiral Valdemar · Post by **Admiral Valdemar** » 2006-03-15 07:10am

Uraniun235 wrote: I always thought the force-feedback in I-War was awesome. Nice and subtle, too... until you started getting hulled, at which point the joystick really started bucking. But then, force feedback joysticks don't just vibrate.

I've never had a joystick with force feedback, I always looked at comfort and features over vibrating gadgets. I expect it's somewhat useful for flight sims if done right, so I'll have to give that a go one day. For gamepads though, it's a novelty, such as the little nice touches to MGS3 for instance, where the controller pulses like a heart warning when an enemy is closing in.

Praxis · Post by **Praxis** » 2006-03-15 11:17am

The danger to Sony isn't the 90 million, but according to this site...
http://www.bit-tech.net/news/2006/03/13 ... ck_patent/

This means that Sony not only has to pony up and awful lot of cash to Immersion Technologies, but it has to stop infringing on the patent - that means stop selling kit which includes Dual Shock technology, and that means pulling the PS2 off the shelf.

Commentators are wondering if this case is the reason for the PS3 controller redesign that we've seen - it's possible the horrendous boomerang monstrosity doesn't infringe on patents.

TheFeniX · Post by **TheFeniX** » 2006-03-15 01:54pm

I don't consider force-feedback the same thing as "My controller becomes a paint shaker whenever I take a step."

Force-feedback is cool for flight sims and racing games as it will fight you for control, simulating pulling a hard roll or taking a corner at 150 MPH.

Vibrating controllers piss me off to no end. There isn't a game I own that doesn't have the vibration turned off unless I NEED it (Zelda OoT being the only one I can think of).

A better solution is to get a good surround sound system with a sub. THAT's feel more like I'm actually there than a spinning piece of metal.

SAMAS · Post by **SAMAS** » 2006-03-15 06:06pm

Force Feedback, like any other tool, is only as good as the game uses it. Some games use it well, some don't.

The DARPA guy's heart attack on Metal Gear Solid was a good example of how it can work. Before it happens, you start to feel his heartbeat with the Dual Shock. Once it starts, your controller starts all but kicking in your hands, and finally goes still when he dies.