Karen Traviss at SWEndirect

[Ender]

See, if they had any sense they'd be talking about force projection here.

Three Million might seem like a tiny number of troops for an organisation the size of the Galactic Republic, but remember that they can deploy almost that full strength anywhere in the galaxy at a maximum of maybe 48 hours notice, and can carry it's entire combined arms force with it, without the need for forward bases or fortified positions, because the Acclamators and Venators provide all that.

And later on, with the increased power of the Imperator class, there's even less need for large numbers, because you're never less than a few hours away from a ship than can reduce an entire planet to cinders.

We've become used to the idea that the Empire should have a fucking huge army, just because it has the industrial capacity to do so, without considering whether it actually needs it.

Even with force projection its hard to make an argument short of tens of trillions for an ofensive fighting infanrty.

[NecronLord]

a ship than can reduce an entire planet to cinders.

And can't even dent a rebel outpost's theatre shield.

[Vendetta]

Offensive against what?

In the battles we see against the Seperatists there simply aren't enough enemy forces to warrant having tens of trillions of enlisted infantry, and in cases where the enemy is stupid enough to mass a force you might consider throwing even a ten million man army at you can open up with two hundred gigaton bombardments and blow them to tiny bits without even thinking about engaging, and if they're behind a shield, call in a few nmore ships and blockade them in. Even a planet with a sparse population and masses of land for arable use like Naboo was in danger from a blockade. Tens of trillions of enlisted men is a million man fighting force on every planet in the entire Empire, all sitting on their asses with nothing to do, ever, because by the time they could deploy, a force from the other side of the galaxy could have deployed to the same incident.

What the Empire needs (which is what Palpatine was always building for), is a large number of local police forces and a small core of elite response forces (Clone Troopers and later Stormtroopers).

Given the speeds at which they can move forces around, and the sheer power of those forces when they do get in situ, individual ships could pacify a very large volume of space through simple fear of what they are capable of.

[Vendetta]

And can't even dent a rebel outpost's theatre shield.

Which they could walk around. Or even blockade and starve out, had Ozzel not been a fuckwit, pushing them to act too quickly.

[Adrian Laguna]

Or even blockade and starve out, had Ozzel not been a fuckwit, pushing them to act too quickly.

You do realize that a blockade would have simply given them more time to pack-up properly and plan their escape better.

[000]

Your rapid-reaction force might work in a completely pacified galaxy, but during a massive war against an enemy with quadrillions of infantry, billions of starships and trillions of vehicles, it ain't gonna cut it.

Besides that, established canon demands clone numbers in the trillions at the very lowest. There's the clone crews of most capships (further supported by Triple Zero), the use of clones as military police on Coruscant, the massive months-long sieges in the Rim, and so on.

[Vendetta]

It also gives the blockading force a far better chance to catch any ships that do try and escape, because they can deploy more effectively, and deploy things like fighter patrols, and would have given far more time for intelligence gathering, like assessing the capabilities of the Rebels' Ion cannon and positioning blockade ships to reduce it's tactical effect. (from it's location, it's fire arcs can't have been too great, there's a fucking great mountain in the way, for a start)

They could even have called in an Interdictor, and then the Rebels would have been truly fucked.

It would also have allowed Imperial Commandos to slip in during the panic and disable the shield and ion cannon, rather than a rushed ground assault.

[Archon]

Wookieepedia is your friend

Thanks. That answers many questions.

No, it doesn't. A sector has thousands of systems in it, thus a Sector army will always be bigger then a system army because it is made up of them.

It does indeed answer many questions, just not the one I asked. I'll make that clear next time.

[Utah Jak]

Obi-wan mentions the Outer Rim sieges to Anakin during RoTS. This implies that it was mainly a space-based campaign where the use of ground forces wasn't a priority. One can also look to the American/Allied military strategy of World War II's Pacific theater. The Allies bypassed heavily fortified islands and attacked less heavily defended, but still strategically imporant holdings. The fortified islands that were bypassed where simply blockaded by submarines and other naval forces. The Republic could have followed a similiar strategy during the Clone Wars. The CIS may have outnumbered the GAR by a wide margin, but that advantage is nullified if the ability to transfer the needed battle droids to where they were required was removed. I'm not a huge fan of the absurdly low 3 million number but based off Republic space superiority, there is a tiny sliver of evidence for such a number.

[Ender]

Offensive against what?

In the battles we see against the Seperatists there simply aren't enough enemy forces to warrant having tens of trillions of enlisted infantry,

Lets be generous and assume they are only conducting active operations against 1000 planets at a time. That lets you hit each place with 10 billion troops. This is about as many as the TF hit poor little Naboo with. You know, a completely unarmed, defenseless population. They invaded with 6 billion troops at the very minimum. If you want to get more specific, assuming a low fleet number of 2000 ships, the core ships alone can each hold 220 million droids means they deployed a force of 440 billion droids.

George Lucas does not think small.

and in cases where the enemy is stupid enough to mass a force you might consider throwing even a ten million man army at you can open up with two hundred gigaton bombardments and blow them to tiny bits without even thinking about engaging,

Because wiping out population centers is a great way to win. Do you question why we didn't just nuke Baghdad, then go in in the first Gulf War? Afterall, they did have the 4th biggest army in the world, certainly it would be justified, right?

and if they're behind a shield, call in a few nmore ships and blockade them in. Even a planet with a sparse population and masses of land for arable use like Naboo was in danger from a blockade.

You are right, they should have gone from importing their food to growing it in a span of a month! Brilliant!

And hey, given that the other army grows at a fucking exponential rate, bottleing them up is a great plan that will surely weaken them, right? I mean, its not like a single world with a single factory line can make their army double in size every couple of days, right?

Oh wait. Sieges are a horrible plan. Hence why there was so much opposition to Palpatine's ordering them, and why the Jedi were doing everything in ther power to punch through them. You can't wait them out or they will bury you.

Tens of trillions of enlisted men is a million man fighting force on every planet in the entire Empire, all sitting on their asses with nothing to do, ever, because by the time they could deploy, a force from the other side of the galaxy could have deployed to the same incident.

And the other side brings in reinforcements every bit as fast. Plus this is ignoring casualty rates and the fact that the defender has a considerable advantage.

What the Empire needs (which is what Palpatine was always building for), is a large number of local police forces and a small core of elite response forces (Clone Troopers and later Stormtroopers).

Given the speeds at which they can move forces around, and the sheer power of those forces when they do get in situ, individual ships could pacify a very large volume of space through simple fear of what they are capable of.

Except the enemy can do the EXACT SAME THING. Thus negating that advantage.

[VT-16]

The Allies bypassed heavily fortified islands and attacked less heavily defended, but still strategically imporant holdings

Island-hopping does not work as a tactic in a galaxy with Hyperdrive.

Skip a planet, and the Seps will just run past you and dig into it.

[Utah Jak]

The Allies bypassed heavily fortified islands and attacked less heavily defended, but still strategically imporant holdings

Island-hopping does not work as a tactic in a galaxy with Hyperdrive.

Skip a planet, and the Seps will just run past you and dig into it.

True, but I also mentioned that there was generally a blockade in place. Even with hyperdrive, it would be difficult to capture and hold a planet where the other side has space superiority.

[Vendetta]

Lets be generous and assume they are only conducting active operations against 1000 planets at a time. That lets you hit each place with 10 billion troops. This is about as many as the TF hit poor little Naboo with. You know, a completely unarmed, defenseless population. They invaded with 6 billion troops at the very minimum. If you want to get more specific, assuming a low fleet number of 2000 ships, the core ships alone can each hold 220 million droids means they deployed a force of 440 billion droids.

George Lucas does not think small.

So, it takes 440 battle droids per head of population to invade Naboo? Upper estimate of it's population is only 1.2 billion.

The vast majority of those ships existed to enforce the space blockade, their infantry contingent was irrelevant, no point even turning the battle droids on. We certainly don't see that many droids landed.

Because wiping out population centers is a great way to win. Do you question why we didn't just nuke Baghdad, then go in in the first Gulf War? Afterall, they did have the 4th biggest army in the world, certainly it would be justified, right?

What? Alderaan? I know I left it around here somewhere...

You are right, they should have gone from importing their food to growing it in a span of a month! Brilliant!

Naboo is literally full of water. With a fucking cornucopia of marine life, which almost certainly how the Gungans sustain themselves, not to mention forests and plains which we know have some form of herd beasts on them. Want to bet some of it is edible? They could have used the existing natural resources to provision the population to at least a basic level whilst they repurposed more land for whatever crops they could.

And hey, given that the other army grows at a fucking exponential rate, bottleing them up is a great plan that will surely weaken them, right? I mean, its not like a single world with a single factory line can make their army double in size every couple of days, right?

With no way of applying it off-planet unless they commit forces to break the blockade, allowing you to strike assets elsewhere. You could cover every square foot of a planet with infantry and it wouldn't mean shit if your opponent is in space.

And the other side brings in reinforcements every bit as fast. Plus this is ignoring casualty rates and the fact that the defender has a considerable advantage.

Remember that the defender is fighting uphill. He has to expend far more energy to attack the force in space than it does to attack him. Space is the absolute high ground, allowing the attacker to direct his strikes anywhere on the planet's surface.

Except the enemy can do the EXACT SAME THING. Thus negating that advantage.

Which makes having effective space combatants the priority, so that you can disable or destroy your enemy's spacelift capacity, and trap his bloated infantry forces in strategically useless positions. Remember that the tactical value of a huge infantry force only matters if you can get it in to range to do any fighting.

[Ender]

Lets be generous and assume they are only conducting active operations against 1000 planets at a time. That lets you hit each place with 10 billion troops. This is about as many as the TF hit poor little Naboo with. You know, a completely unarmed, defenseless population. They invaded with 6 billion troops at the very minimum. If you want to get more specific, assuming a low fleet number of 2000 ships, the core ships alone can each hold 220 million droids means they deployed a force of 440 billion droids.

George Lucas does not think small.

So, it takes 440 battle droids per head of population to invade Naboo? Upper estimate of it's population is only 1.2 billion.

The vast majority of those ships existed to enforce the space blockade, their infantry contingent was irrelevant,

Prove it.

no point even turning the battle droids on. We certainly don't see that many droids landed.

We see a single block of a single city and a small contingent engaging in a police force. Care to show how this lower limit contradicts the above upperlimit?

Because wiping out population centers is a great way to win. Do you question why we didn't just nuke Baghdad, then go in in the first Gulf War? Afterall, they did have the 4th biggest army in the world, certainly it would be justified, right?

What? Alderaan? I know I left it around here somewhere...

Address the fucking point. There is a difference between using powerful weapons against population centers when the goal is capture, liberation/occupation and when the goal is state sponsored terrorism.

You are right, they should have gone from importing their food to growing it in a span of a month! Brilliant!

Naboo is literally full of water. With a fucking cornucopia of marine life, which almost certainly how the Gungans sustain themselves, not to mention forests and plains which we know have some form of herd beasts on them. Want to bet some of it is edible? They could have used the existing natural resources to provision the population to at least a basic level whilst they repurposed more land for whatever crops they could.

You can't even sustain a population beyond the low hundreds through hunting and gathering, you are arguing that you can sustain a population of billions? Does it totally escape you that we converted to agriculture for a reason?

And hey, given that the other army grows at a fucking exponential rate, bottleing them up is a great plan that will surely weaken them, right? I mean, its not like a single world with a single factory line can make their army double in size every couple of days, right?

With no way of applying it off-planet unless they commit forces to break the blockade, allowing you to strike assets elsewhere. You could cover every square foot of a planet with infantry and it wouldn't mean shit if your opponent is in space.

It means your opponent can't take the planet which is his fucking goal.

And the other side brings in reinforcements every bit as fast. Plus this is ignoring casualty rates and the fact that the defender has a considerable advantage.

Remember that the defender is fighting uphill. He has to expend far more energy to attack the force in space than it does to attack him. Space is the absolute high ground, allowing the attacker to direct his strikes anywhere on the planet's surface.

Are you fucking retarded? How can you possibly think the defender has to expend more energy then the attacker?

In a war between two planetary bodies the attacker (he who holds the "high ground" you prize so much) is at a disadvantage because he must first attack "uphill", then transport, then attack. This, vice the defender who must just defend when you land your troops. The defender need not attack your ships, he need only repell your ground forces to make you fail. In this he has a distinct advantage in logistics, firepower, command and coordination, and speed. He can using factories, communication equipment, and transport systems already in place to fight you, and resupply from local resources, while you must build everything on another planet and transport it there.

This is why you need the huge numbers when you attack; because if you don't end it swiftly you aren't going to end it. Your only choices are a huge meatgrinder (which requires the massive numbers I pointed out above), or to destroy the population centers and infastructure you sought to capute (which means you failed in your objective and must expend resources and time to rebuild it so you can use it in your campaign; you basically force scorched earth upon yourself)

Except the enemy can do the EXACT SAME THING. Thus negating that advantage.

Which makes having effective space combatants the priority, so that you can disable or destroy your enemy's spacelift capacity, and trap his bloated infantry forces in strategically useless positions. Remember that the tactical value of a huge infantry force only matters if you can get it in to range to do any fighting.

And if your infantry can't accomplish anything when you get them there, you are uttely fucked. maybe the guy can't make any headway, but neither can you, and your only option to do so bleeds you dry so he can counter attack and wipe the floor with you. See Russia vs Germany, 1940's.

[Archon]

A lot of people would be happier if Traviss et al had used the word 'countless' to describe the sizes of the Droid and Clone armies. IMO it would allow the Clone Wars to keep some of the mystique that it acquired in ANH.

[Vyraeth]

Because wiping out population centers is a great way to win. Do you question why we didn't just nuke Baghdad, then go in in the first Gulf War? Afterall, they did have the 4th biggest army in the world, certainly it would be justified, right?

The U.S. didn't nuke Baghdad because of the obvious political reprecussions, both internationally and on the home front. A nation like the United States couldn't afford that sort of backlash, do you really think the Empire would care?

And if they would, why would they blow up Alderaan which would cause an even larger backlash (and according to much of the Expanded Universe, indeed did -- arguing even more for why they wouldn't think twice about vaping an opposing population center).

That was his point.

EDIT: On a side note, it's important to point out that it's fairly safe to assume that the United States has a larger moral conscious then the Empire. I don't think the U.S. would nuke Baghad out of principle, let alone because of the political backlash. Again, the Empire has shown that it doesn't hold such principles. The Ghorman Massacre, Camaas -- they all represent the ruthlessness the Empire brings to the table. If they had to wipe out a far larger opposing force via orbital bombardment, and it affected population centers, I'm sure they wouldn't care.

[Ender]

Because wiping out population centers is a great way to win. Do you question why we didn't just nuke Baghdad, then go in in the first Gulf War? Afterall, they did have the 4th biggest army in the world, certainly it would be justified, right?

The U.S. didn't nuke Baghdad because of the obvious political reprecussions, both internationally and on the home front.

And the fact that they need a place to set up a stable government from and need the infastructure to make the country stand on its own was not at all a concern, right?

A nation like the United States couldn't afford that sort of backlash, do you really think the Empire would care?

We aren't talking about the Empire, we are talking about the Republic where they didn't have complete control over everything and there was a sizable faction with considerable clout that would object to it.

And if they would, why would they blow up Alderaan which would cause an even backlash (and according to much of the Expanded Universe, indeed did -- arguing even more for why they wouldn't think twice about vaping an opposing population center).

That was his point.

And mine was that it was a dodge, and a poor one at that.

The goal was not to conquer Alderaan, it was the terrify others. Further, the organizations that did it were diferent. Tarkin is not going to hold himself to the same "preserve life" standards Yoda is.

EDIT: On a side note, it's important to point out that it's fairly safe to assume that the United States has a larger moral conscious then the Empire. I don't think the Empire would nuke Baghad out of principle, let alone because of the political backlash. Again, the Empire has shown that it doesn't hold such principles. The Ghorman Massacre, Camaas -- they all represent the ruthlessness the Empire brings to the table. If they had to wipe out a far larger opposing force via orbital bombardment, and it affected population centers, I'm sure they wouldn't care.

The Empire was formed after the purging of the Jedi, who would not do such a thing, further wanton destruction runs counter to their goal in this scenario. The Empire may preform evil acts, but it is pragmatic about it.

[Cykeisme]

Certainly, more than a billion of these battle droids were vulture droids and tri-fighters, spacebound and largely consigned to the Confederacy navy.

I'm not sure if this is relevant, but the massive numerical superiority enjoyed by the droids also included droid starfighters and droid capship crews.

The Republic would not have been able to enjoy the space superiority (that seems to be taken as a fact here, and not even be argued) if there were tiny amounts of clones, because all sources point to pilots consisting entirely of clones, and capital ship crews being the same except for the top echelon command staff.

The whole silly "planet-hopping" idea was considered and discussed at length, even back during time of The Original Nex' blog. It simply wouldn't work against a foe who also has hyperdrive, but also has orders of magnitude more infantry, armor and starfighters.. and the ships to transport it. You'd be outclassed at your own game.

A lot of people would be happier if Traviss et al had used the word 'countless' to describe the sizes of the Droid and Clone armies. IMO it would allow the Clone Wars to keep some of the mystique that it acquired in ANH.

Well said. Makes Traviss look like a gargantuan idiot for spouting the idea that "Star Wars is a myth, the numbers don't need to make sense!".. fucking hell, if it's a myth, why shit out the nonsensical numbers in the first place? Let it keep its mystique!


Another thing.. why bother have an army of clones in science fiction (a thought that evocates uncountable legions of clone soldiers), and then make it a tiny army of clones?! Never mind the ridiculous in-universe hoops that they jump through in a futile manner to justify this three million joke, it makes no sense from a literary perspective!

[Ender]

The whole silly "planet-hopping" idea was considered and discussed at length, even back during time of The Original Nex' blog. It simply wouldn't work against a foe who also has hyperdrive, but also has orders of magnitude more infantry, armor and starfighters.. and the ships to transport it. You'd be outclassed at your own game.

Indeed, the Republic may have had better combatants, but the Confederacy had a massive fleet designed and trained in moving massive quantities from place to place as fast as possible.

[Cykeisme]

Yeah, the fact that the Trade Federation has a merchant fleet at its disposal makes it very well suited to transporting and deploying droid armies. As we've seen, the logistics of battle droid army deployment is not unlike that of transporting inert cargo.
They'll planet-hop your ass off if you try it on them!


Btw, can someone confirm a source that states this massive Republic space superiority that I keep hearing about? This confuses me, because the clone/droid numerical disparity also affects numbers in space. Clone crews and pilots.

[Vympel]

and CLOSW says "a million divisions at the start of the war, with millions more undergoing evaluation". That's all anyone should ever care about, imho.

What's CLOSW?

[Ender]

and CLOSW says "a million divisions at the start of the war, with millions more undergoing evaluation". That's all anyone should ever care about, imho.

What's CLOSW?

Complete Locations o Str Wars I'd imagine.

I just prefer ITW, since its all a rehash of that anyhow

[Vympel]

It must appear in one of the new sections of that book. Millions of divisions of clones- well that settles it definitively.

[Ender]

It must appear in one of the new sections of that book. Millions of divisions of clones- well that settles it definitively.

No, AOTC ITW portion. Its small text under a picture of clones marching from the movie.

[Vympel]

No, AOTC ITW portion. Its small text under a picture of clones marching from the movie.

Really? I never read that.

*runs off to check*

The shit that you don't read.

Thank God for Simon Beecroft and bringing common sense into the issue. It's a lot easier to refute a fundamentally untenable number that way.