Karen Traviss at SWEndirect

Anguirus · Post by **Anguirus** » 2006-03-15 01:45am

^ To which the fucktard's response is: "It's not really canon, because Saxton was involved."

Sigh.

General Soontir Fel · Post by **General Soontir Fel** » 2006-03-15 01:48am

Cykeisme wrote: Another thing.. why bother have an army of clones in science fiction (a thought that evocates uncountable legions of clone soldiers), and then make it a tiny army of clones?! Never mind the ridiculous in-universe hoops that they jump through in a futile manner to justify this three million joke, it makes no sense from a literary perspective!

The way I see it, there is only one reason the army had to be made of clones: Order 66. The entire purpose of the war was to destroy the Jedi, and regular troops could not be sufficiently indoctrinated (according to Dark Lord, even some clones managed to resist their "programming").

Stormtroopers of the Imperial era weren't clones (or at least, not all of them were), because after the Jedi purge, nothing required such fanaticism, and standard training sufficed, and required less resources.

VT-16 · Post by **VT-16** » 2006-03-15 02:47am

since its all a rehash of that anyhow

I'm using Hodge-logic here, if one source gets copied x number of times, those sources are also valid in a debate. :P

Cykeisme · Post by **Cykeisme** » 2006-03-15 07:23am

Traviss has been claiming that her hands were tied, that the three million number was what she was given to work with.
Well, the millions-of-divisions quote from a source as high as ITW pretty much cuts those ropes, doesn't it?

VT-16 · Post by **VT-16** » 2006-03-15 07:55am

I can't believe this statement "her hands were tied", since the AOTC ITW came out over two years before her article.

Cykeisme · Post by **Cykeisme** » 2006-03-15 08:04am

It's not ours to guess, but what other possible agendas could she have had?

Wanting to wank out clones by having them insanely outnumbered? That seems a bit farfetched..

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2006-03-15 08:08am

Cykeisme wrote:It's not ours to guess, but what other possible agendas could she have had?

Wanting to wank out clones by having them insanely outnumbered? That seems a bit farfetched..

Literally that's the rub. If that was such, her own books should be about a single crippled half blind clone winning battles stacked 1000000:1.

She's just being petulant, but most of us had experienced this first hand or definitly read it second hand.

apocolypse · Post by **apocolypse** » 2006-03-15 09:27am

Cykeisme wrote:Traviss has been claiming that her hands were tied, that the three million number was what she was given to work with.
Well, the millions-of-divisions quote from a source as high as ITW pretty much cuts those ropes, doesn't it?

I call bullshit on Karen's statement too. I was in the same thread over at TFN with Traviss, and Ryan Kauffman stated,

"FYI, re: 3 million.

LFL was very clear to us that no fixed number of total clones would or could be assigned.

Therefore, the number 3 million (plus) does not represent the entire fighting force."

So I don't see how her hands were tied when LFL wouldn't give them a number in the first place.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2006-03-15 09:29am

This woman strikes me as the kind of person who would rear-end a car at a stoplight in front of a dozen witnesses and stridently insist that it was the other driver's fault. Pathologically incapable of admitting error, even to the point of utter stupidity.

18-Till-I-Die · Post by **18-Till-I-Die** » 2006-03-15 07:44pm

Archon wrote:A lot of people would be happier if Traviss et al had used the word 'countless' to describe the sizes of the Droid and Clone armies. IMO it would allow the Clone Wars to keep some of the mystique that it acquired in ANH.

I agree totally. I was saying the precise thing when this first came up, and i think that would have actually added to the depth and coolness of Star Wars and made it more like a fantasy and add to the mystique. Which is of course good.

Just say " the Clone army conists of countless Clone Troopers..."

Then you say, oh well the Droids number in the quadrillions.

Let people draw their own conclusions. Really no more needs to be added, or else you get situations like this.

18-Till-I-Die · Post by **18-Till-I-Die** » 2006-03-15 07:46pm

Ghetto edit: In fact, just say 'Countless' or 'numberless' on both sides and it becomes even more clear we're dealing with these huge galactic armies, while retaining the mystique and fantasy elements that make SW so cool and fun. Again, no more needs to be said than that, people are able to draw their own conclusions, especially with a huge fanbase with something like Star Wars.

Mange · Post by **Mange** » 2006-03-16 04:39am

Traviss repeated the whole "It's Palpatine" over at the Official Forums:

+http://forums.starwars.com/thread.jspa? ... start=1140

I mean, just look at that post:

And it's has been on our TVs and in our newspapers for three years solid, and probably will be for years to come, alas. And still nobody is making the connection. I think this is because I have such a different professional background to most folk, and so such a different take on life, that I see things that others don't.

VT-16 · Post by **VT-16** » 2006-03-16 08:43am

I think this is because I have such a different professional background to most folk, and so such a different take on life, that I see things that others don't.

Oooh yeah, show me that Mandalorian might!

18-Till-I-Die · Post by **18-Till-I-Die** » 2006-03-16 09:09am

And it's has been on our TVs and in our newspapers for three years solid, and probably will be for years to come, alas. And still nobody is making the connection. I think this is because I have such a different professional background to most folk, and so such a different take on life, that I see things that others don't.

What the blue fuck does that even mean?

What is she trying to say, she's "smarter" than us or something?

The words "Bitch" and "Please" come to mind.

VT-16 · Post by **VT-16** » 2006-03-16 09:17am

I think she's talking about the Iraqi War and how the Grand Army of the Republic is the "army we're given, not the one we wanted".

In other words, she's insane. And elitist.

Imperial Overlord · Post by **Imperial Overlord** » 2006-03-16 09:24am

She's almost as annoying as Terry Goodkind and that is saying a lot. And she's almost as crazy too.

18-Till-I-Die · Post by **18-Till-I-Die** » 2006-03-16 09:34am

I'm personally more pissed at that shit where she openly takes a potshot at the SW fandom itself. You know, i mean, WE buy the fucking books. Where does she get off.

I'll probably take that too hard. I just always hate when people insult the fans that pay for their shit. Like where would they be without these "unwashed masses".

Elfdart · Post by **Elfdart** » 2006-03-16 04:43pm

Just think of it this way: The Grand Army of the Republic is but one of many Armies in service to the Republic.

You can also think of it this way: In The Big Red One one of the soldiers says "They tell us the US Army is the 1st Division and ten million replacements.". Just think of the GAR as a three million man army with unlimited replacements.

Yes, it's a pain to plug someone else's leaks. Just keep it simple since there's no use in weaving elaborate safety nets for others, unless you enjoy headaches.

The Original Nex · Post by **The Original Nex** » 2006-03-16 05:26pm

I would prefer to either get rid of these numbers altogether, or retcon it to say that a "Grand Army" is just another unit of organization above "Systems" and "Sector" armies all of which are part of the overall "Grand Army to the Republic."

Also, apparently Karen Traviss will be writing a new short story called "Odds" in the next "Star Wars Insider" which whiil "clear up the situation." However, given that she's been spouting out this "Palpatine made it happen" bullshit my guess it that's her idea of "clearing it up."

I've also created a new blog, that doesn't have much new info, but centralizes all the previous blogs I've written on the matter in one location. Already I've had some fucktards commenting trying to justify the "Palpatine did it" tomfoolery.

+http://blogs.starwars.com/captainneeda/16

Mange · Post by **Mange** » 2006-03-16 05:47pm

The Original Nex wrote:I would prefer to either get rid of these numbers altogether, or retcon it to say that a "Grand Army" is just another unit of organization above "Systems" and "Sector" armies all of which are part of the overall "Grand Army to the Republic."

Also, apparently Karen Traviss will be writing a new short story called "Odds" in the next "Star Wars Insider" which whiil "clear up the situation." However, given that she's been spouting out this "Palpatine made it happen" bullshit my guess it that's her idea of "clearing it up."

I've also created a new blog, that doesn't have much new info, but centralizes all the previous blogs I've written on the matter in one location. Already I've had some fucktards commenting trying to justify the "Palpatine did it" tomfoolery.

+http://blogs.starwars.com/captainneeda/16

Great blog, Nex! I was also told over at another board where I had a discussion about the size of the GAR that there would be a "resolution" in Odds (Traviss had hinted at that).

VT-16 · Post by **VT-16** » 2006-03-16 06:16pm

Ask how Palpatine can allow all those clones to die in every single fight, let alone justify tens of thousands of capital ships crewed with clones.

Ask what "Palpatine made it happen" means. In detail!

Also ask how the German army numbered in 13 million throughout the course of WW II, and yet this galaxy-size army is less than 10% of that.

No, wait, fuck all that, just tell the stupid bitch about ITW:AOTC and add her 3 million clones to that. Please, just get her to acknowledge a non-Traviss source

Mange · Post by **Mange** » 2006-03-16 06:39pm

VT-16 wrote:Ask how Palpatine can allow all those clones to die in every single fight, let alone justify tens of thousands of capital ships crewed with clones.

Ask what "Palpatine made it happen" means. In detail!

Also ask how the German army numbered in 13 million throughout the course of WW II, and yet this galaxy-size army is less than 10% of that.

No, wait, fuck all that, just tell the stupid bitch about ITW:AOTC and add her 3 million clones to that. Please, just get her to acknowledge a non-Traviss source

I said this in another thread, but I had a discussion with her in which I pointed out the quote from the ItW:AOTC. Her response to that was that I was "selective" with my sources and that novels and comics (she mentioned LoE among others) contains the 1.2 million figure, that the figure had been used by other authors and that her numbers were from canon. She also said that:

Saying that the sources you quote (and clearly approve of) were subject to the same continuity that I was only reinforces my negative interpretation of your comments, because it implies that I alone ignored whatever that was supposed to be.

VT-16 wrote:Also ask how the German army numbered in 13 million throughout the course of WW II, and yet this galaxy-size army is less than 10% of that.

I touched upon this and used the "quintillions" of droids figure from Peña's article and the ROTS:ICS... Well, I guess it doesn't hurt to quote:

I'm also amazed - and I really mean amazed - that the obvious answer to this has not been spotted by anyone despite my repeated hints. Why only hints? Wait and see. I said I could retcon this and I have. One of the things authors are paid to do is intelligent retcon, because contradictory things crop up all the time in SW, and for me the answer came from very real life. People seem locked into this WWI/WWII scenario of huge set-piece battles and historical proof, and don't seem able to think outside that box; but I have to. Nor do they seem to take into account that the war is a chess game played by one player. This is a war managed by Palpatine for one specific purpose, and it doesn't need to be big. So he doesn't need large numbers of troops until he makes his move to enforce the Empire, either.

I fear that if there will be a retcon, then it will be along those lines.

The Original Nex · Post by **The Original Nex** » 2006-03-16 07:00pm

One of the things authors are paid to do is intelligent retcon, because contradictory things crop up all the time in SW, and for me the answer came from very real life. People seem locked into this WWI/WWII scenario of huge set-piece battles and historical proof, and don't seem able to think outside that box; but I have to. Nor do they seem to take into account that the war is a chess game played by one player. This is a war managed by Palpatine for one specific purpose, and it doesn't need to be big. So he doesn't need large numbers of troops until he makes his move to enforce the Empire, either.

So, in her opinion, the Clone Wars was not the massive galaxy wide conflict that it's been touted to have been since 1977?

May I ask what thread this took place in?

Post by **Vympel** » 2006-03-16 07:25pm

God knows. I've said this before, but it's obvious she hasn't bothered to read the RotS novelization. The war is taking place all over the galaxy, all at once, hundreds of thousands of people die per day, the burning of entire worlds.

Frankly, this "it doesn't have to be big" is complete bullshit.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2006-03-16 10:41pm

Ultimately, the real problem here is not Karen Traviss herself. The combination of ignorance and stubbornness is actually quite common. The problem here is that higher-ups at Lucasfilm have shown no interest in reigning in a woman who seems determined to retrofit everything else in the SW universe to match her own personal vision of it instead of the other way around.

Lucasfilm is undoubtedly a company with internal politics, much like any other company. Decision-making will be influenced far more heavily by those office politics than by any sort of artistic integrity unless someone like Mr. Lucas himself steps in personally, which is probably unlikely since I doubt he's even following this.