Was Tarkin ACTUALLY cocky? Or was it realistic?

[Patrick Degan]

If Tarkin would have scrambled fighters immediately, and succeeded in wiping out the last of the Rebels, it might have shown other systems that they need to protect their Death Star with fighters against a small number of spacecraft. This would be weakness, and might encourage future Rebellions.

No, because nobody would be concentrating on the fact that fighters were deployed as a precautionary defence measure. The only fact that would register is the existence of a large planet-destroying battlestation in the hands of a regime fully prepared to use it against anybody —with object lessons to that effect already being demonstrated. That sort of thing tends to discourage rebellion.

[Isolder74]

If Tarkin would have scrambled fighters immediately, and succeeded in wiping out the last of the Rebels, it might have shown other systems that they need to protect their Death Star with fighters against a small number of spacecraft. This would be weakness, and might encourage future Rebellions.

No, because nobody would be concentrating on the fact that fighters were deployed as a precautionary defence measure. The only fact that would register is the existence of a large planet-destroying battlestation in the hands of a regime fully prepared to use it against anybody —with object lessons to that effect already being demonstrated. That sort of thing tends to discourage rebellion.

Indeed nothing dicoutaged rebellion faster than we will vaperize your planet if you support the rebels! With out the victory at Yavin, The Alliance is basically an non entity. With the Senate gone this is their only chance to bring change to the Empire.

[Cos Dashit]

Just saying...

If Moff Tarkin would have launched their fighters at the first sign of the Rebels, it might be seen as the Empire needing to defend their battlestation.

It would have been far more impressive if Tarkin would have just said, "Fighters on the way? Thirty of them? Well, let's just let them try their best, and enjoy the show. Vader! Bring up the Bud Light and some nachos! This is gonna be great." Then the Rebels would have fought, lost, and the Death Star would have been seen as invincible, seeing as how the Imperials didn't even fight back.

But, unfortunately, the Death Star was indeed blown up.

[Patrick Degan]

Just saying...

If Moff Tarkin would have launched their fighters at the first sign of the Rebels, it might be seen as the Empire needing to defend their battlestation.

Riiiiight... Because that little bit of trivia would have just totally overshadowed the fact that the Imperial regime has taken to blowing up whole planets as a hobby.

[Old Plympto]

Just saying...

If Moff Tarkin would have launched their fighters at the first sign of the Rebels, it might be seen as the Empire needing to defend their battlestation.

And I'm asking if Tarkin launched the fighter screen, decimated Red squadron by sheer attrition, blew up Yavin into smithereens... who's the nut left in the wake of the battle crying "OMG!!! THe Empire needed to launch fighters!!!! We found the secret to destroy the Death Star!!!! Tell everyone! Let's do the same!!!! ROxxors!!! ROFLOLOMGBBQWTF?!?!?!

[Cos Dashit]

Just saying...

If Moff Tarkin would have launched their fighters at the first sign of the Rebels, it might be seen as the Empire needing to defend their battlestation.

Riiiiight... Because that little bit of trivia would have just totally overshadowed the fact that the Imperial regime has taken to blowing up whole planets as a hobby.

When the Empire blew Alderaan to bits, they weren't defending their battlestation against anything or anybody. They were not under attack, they were not about to be attacked, they just sat there and BABOOM! there goes Alderaan.

All that showed was their brilliant offensive, not any of their defensive capabilities.

[Patrick Degan]

Just saying...

If Moff Tarkin would have launched their fighters at the first sign of the Rebels, it might be seen as the Empire needing to defend their battlestation.

Riiiiight... Because that little bit of trivia would have just totally overshadowed the fact that the Imperial regime has taken to blowing up whole planets as a hobby.

When the Empire blew Alderaan to bits, they weren't defending their battlestation against anything or anybody. They were not under attack, they were not about to be attacked, they just sat there and BABOOM! there goes Alderaan.

All that showed was their brilliant offensive, not any of their defensive capabilities.

Which, if Yavin-D had done the big firework as well, and in the teeth of opposition to boot, would have defeated the point of the Death Star... how, exactly?

[Stark]

Tarkin drinks Bud Light?

[Cos Dashit]

Which, if Yavin-D had done the big firework as well, and in the teeth of opposition to boot, would have defeated the point of the Death Star... how, exactly?

You misunderstand me. I never claimed that anything defeated the purpose of the Death Star. I simply stated that it would have been far more impressive if Tarkin and Vader and co. let the Rebel fighters make an attempt, not be met with opposition (fighters that is), and still fail.

[Patrick Degan]

Which, if Yavin-D had done the big firework as well, and in the teeth of opposition to boot, would have defeated the point of the Death Star... how, exactly?

You misunderstand me. I never claimed that anything defeated the purpose of the Death Star. I simply stated that it would have been far more impressive if Tarkin and Vader and co. let the Rebel fighters make an attempt, not be met with opposition (fighters that is), and still fail.

If Yavin-D had been reduced to rubble a mere day after Alderaan was, nobody would have given a flying fuck about what any Rebel fighters may or may not have done.

[Cos Dashit]

If Yavin-D had been reduced to rubble a mere day after Alderaan was, nobody would have given a flying fuck about what any Rebel fighters may or may not have done.

Not true. Some system out there could be convinced to rebel against the Empire because of them sending out fighters at Yavin. This would have shown them that the Imperials believed the Rebellion had enough of a chance, and as a result they sent out fighters to protect their battlestation.

[Noble Ire]

If Yavin-D had been reduced to rubble a mere day after Alderaan was, nobody would have given a flying fuck about what any Rebel fighters may or may not have done.

Not true. Some system out there could be convinced to rebel against the Empire because of them sending out fighters at Yavin. This would have shown them that the Imperials believed the Rebellion had enough of a chance, and as a result they sent out fighters to protect their battlestation.

All right, this is ridiculous. Putting aside the fact that sending out fighters would be a complete ordinary, completely unremarkable tactic, so much so that it probably wouldn't even be noted in the subsequent galactic news broadcasts on the event, you are actually suggesting that people would paint an enormous target on their homeworlds and continue to mount futile attacks on the Death Star simply because the Empire took an active role in the defense of its own superweapon?

What?

[General Brock]

Doctor Doom wrote:

Evacuation of key personnel is not military pragmatism. It would constitute and grave and serious offense, that would likely result in his execution. No military command structure would ever condone evacuation of key personnel in the middle of a battle. What would have been pragmatic is for Tarkin to scramble fighters.

Tarkin/Vader did scramble fighters. How many could squeeze into the trench? There was barely room for one fighter to shoot cleanly. After Luke, there were no other fighters available, with time to make the run.

Chief Bast evacuated himself from the Death Star to appear in the X-mas special, still a trusted officer, not executed. Col. Veers appears in the sort-of-canon Tie Fighter game, and General Tagge appears in Marvel comics. The time from torpedo entry to reactor detonation was short enough to suggest they were well away before Luke completed his run, and didn't wait until a torp actually went in. They continued their careers as trusted Imperial officers, and Veers even got a promotion.

The suggestion to evacuate was made by Bast, an experienced officer; perhaps Imperial protocols are a little different than the real ones you are referencing from. Evacuate does not necessarily entail running away from battle.

They could still direct the battle from a command vessel screened by ties; basically all they have to do is get clear and order it to fire. The EU presents any number of smaller vessels that could conceivably have been aboard the Death Star at the time that could serve as a remote command vessel.

How do you explain this to the Emperor? Succeed and risk demerits for doubting his own creation? He might find himself rewarded for destroying the rebellion, then retired to a window seat in favour of his political competition. Tarkin's manner was tight and impatient, and in my opinion lacked the fierce confidence he displayed blasting Alderaan.

It is entirely possible Tarkin knew of the design flaw, but simply was not worried about it. Tarkin did not believe in the ways of the Force, and, in reality, the Force was the only way the attack on the Death Star could have succeeded. If Luke had not been there, the attack would have been a failure. Tarkin likely knew that it was realistically impossible for any fighter ace to make that shot, but didn't count on the influence of what he considered an extinct religion.

Tarkin did not state disbelief in the force, merely that the Jedi religion and its powers were no longer a factor. He was not surprised when Vader force-choked Motti. The fighters were seen as a threat; he was not at all confident and jubilant in his 'moment of triumph'.

It is not a matter of launching all of their fighters, but simply more than those they did. Hell, the very least they could have done was scrambled more fighters to take down the Millenium Falcon when they saw it approaching on sensors, instead of hoping that their fighters in the trench could handle it. It was incompetence, pure and simple.

There had to be more ties than those in the trench; of ~30 fighters, only three survived, and the station point defense appears to only hit fighters after thay had been lamed by ties.

Vader's flight should certainly have been notified of the Milennium Falcon's approach. That it was not isn't necessarily Tarkin's fault. By then, the Death Star was so close to the moon, and perhaps point defenses sufficiently supressed, that Han could zip in well before the existing ties killing off the rebel assault force could respond, let alone scramble more fighters to intercept. DS flight controllers should have picked up this one.

The original rebel ships launched when the Death Star was just entering Yavin, still a ways off.

Did you watch the movie? Don't you recall Tarkin calling the Jedi and the ways of the Force an extinct religion?

That dosen't mean Tarkin does not believe in the power of the force. It only means that Force powers don't matter anymore as effective opposition. Jedi religion is an interpretation of the force phenomenon, and here he has the last trained weilder at his right hand.

It is NOT a readily exploitable flaw! The reason it wasn't corrected was because it quite simply was NOT a threat. The Rebel attack was a last desperate gamble because they knew they were about to be wiped out. The only reason it succeeded was because they happened to have one of the most Force sensitive humans ever born being guided by the spirit of an unusually powerful Jedi Master, who just happened to be saved at the right time by the Millenium Falcon, which was miraculously not destroyed on its approach to the Death Star. Without this exact combination of factors, the Rebel attack WOULD have failed. How could Imperial planners have EVER accounted for this?

If there were NO threat, his ace pilot would not be in the trench; just let them take pointless potshots while dealing first with the ones shooting up a small fortune in gunnery towers and sensors.

The flaw existed, and there was a better chance to exploit it at Yavin than at some future date. Bast clearly stated "There is a danger" when he reported the tactical analysis. The flaw looks like something overlooked, found out at the last minute, and considered an unlikely threat unless someone had the plans and could do an analysis with something approaching the competance of the Empire.

Given the manoevorability of SW torps, and the fact that the near misses were very close indeed, I'd say the rebels chances were very good.

They chose to stay because they knew they did not have enough time to evacuate the station of all key personnel and equipment, and if the Death Star was not destroyed, the Rebellion would be.

They could charter the Falcon. Some stuff can be replaced; persons with important knowledge/skills, and data, not so. In fact the equipment infratructure of a formal fighting force would be useless against the Death Star. The rebellion would be likely be finshed as that sort of entity. They could always try to sabotage the Death Star some other way, and operate covertly on planets too important to blast. Alderaan was considered a non-imperial planet and useful example. Yavin was uninhabited. Not all planets are so expendable, and given the extensive underground society in the SW universe, the rebellion could be a nuisance for some time. Much less effective, of course.

Evacuating himself and key personnel would have been ludicrous. No military man in their right mind would ever order such a thing given the circumstances. However, he should have deployed more fighters, which would not have shown weakness or fear of the Rebels, and would NOT have been an offense that he could be punished for. At ABSOLUTE MOST, he would be given a slight dock in pay for expending unnecessary resources.

Actually, Tarkin should have had fighters run at the rebels head-on, placing flights between the rebels and their target, not chase them. That was Vader's call. Such an order would not necessarily demand more fighters.

"Grand Moff" is a paramilitary rank. A full military ranker advised evacuation. Tarkin did not say, "Evacuation is ludicris, they can't possibly set off a chain reaction", Tarkin said "Evacuate? At our moment of victory?!" That is a political reaction, not a military one.

A real military commander might go through the motions and read the report through rolling eyes. An impatient political general probably would not. A real military commander might take precautions against Murphy's law backed by a sound analysis. A political general's judgement might be a bit clouded by non-military considerations. A real military commander is still a human being; training and experience may assert itself insightfully, but not always, and military men have made ludicris decisons under pressure. Real military men presented Tarkin's scenario with no hindsight might order a limited evacuation, or they might stick it out, for reasons that will appear sublime or ridiculous only in hindsight.

If Tarkin was Force influenced by the Emperor, to please the Emperor and destroy the rebellion, then he would not necessarily be in his right mind. At Endor, the sudden loss of Sith influence was the undoing of the Imperial Fleet, which even after the loss of the Death Star II, should have been able to avenge their Emperor.

That might explain why Tarkin didn't correct the exhaust shaft problem (if he knew about it) before the Death Star's first serious military trial, did allow an important prisoner and possibly the Death Star plans to escape to the enemy, and fail to take precautions against what an experienced analyst, qualified to be on his staff, considered a threat worthy of evacuation. If the Emperor were using Tarkins political ambition to push him, errors in judgement guided by tainted ambition would also be magnified.

Evacuating at their moment of triumph would almost certainly raise giggles in the Imperial Court. Taking one's chances on the Death Star, moments from victory, would acheive a more desireable outcome, or it wouldn't matter.

[Cos Dashit]

If Yavin-D had been reduced to rubble a mere day after Alderaan was, nobody would have given a flying fuck about what any Rebel fighters may or may not have done.

Not true. Some system out there could be convinced to rebel against the Empire because of them sending out fighters at Yavin. This would have shown them that the Imperials believed the Rebellion had enough of a chance, and as a result they sent out fighters to protect their battlestation.

All right, this is ridiculous. Putting aside the fact that sending out fighters would be a complete ordinary, completely unremarkable tactic, so much so that it probably wouldn't even be noted in the subsequent galactic news broadcasts on the event, you are actually suggesting that people would paint an enormous target on their homeworlds and continue to mount futile attacks on the Death Star simply because the Empire took an active role in the defense of its own superweapon?

What?

It would have encouraged more rebellions than if the Empire didn't even bother putting out fighters and having the Rebellion squashed with zero effort.

[Darth Yoshi]

Dude, you're a retard. Even if the Death Star had scrambled fighters, consider this: the Death has a fighter complement in the thousands at the very minimum, probably more. What idiot would rebel against a weapon that can shatter your planet or swarm you to death with disposable fighters at leisure? Well, aside from you, obviously.

[Cos Dashit]

All I'm saying: Not scrambling fighters and winning is more impressive than scrambling fighters and winning. Because the former is more impressive, there is less of a chance of systems rebelling after that course of action.

[Darth Yoshi]

Less than 0% is still 0.

[Patrick Degan]

If Yavin-D had been reduced to rubble a mere day after Alderaan was, nobody would have given a flying fuck about what any Rebel fighters may or may not have done.

Not true. Some system out there could be convinced to rebel against the Empire because of them sending out fighters at Yavin. This would have shown them that the Imperials believed the Rebellion had enough of a chance, and as a result they sent out fighters to protect their battlestation.

Are you insane?! THE UTTER FAILURE OF THE FIGHTERS TO STOP YAVIN-D FROM BEING TURNED TO POWDER WOULD HAVE SIMPLY PUNCTUATED THE POINT THAT RESISTANCE IS FUTILE

[Doctor Doom]

Re: General Brock

Tarkin/Vader did scramble fighters. How many could squeeze into the trench? There was barely room for one fighter to shoot cleanly. After Luke, there were no other fighters available, with time to make the run.

Tarkin refused to scramble fighters. Vader scrambled some at the last minute, quite possible because he sensed the presence of the Force. That Tarkin didn't countermand Vader means nothing (in fact, the EU makes it clear that Vader made a hobby of taking his fighter for "joy rides" in battle to rack up his kill count). The Rebel fighters never should have made it as far as the trench, plain and simple.

Furthermore, who says the fighters have to be within the trench itself? It would be easy enough to have fighters coming in from "above," shooting "down" at the fighters within. Would have allowed for the deployment of more fighters, could have prevented the Millenium Falcon from saving Luke at the last moment, and indeed could have destroyed all the fighters in the trench because the fire would be coming from an angle they didn't expect. Hell, the Millenium Falcon used this tactic, and surprised a Sith Lord, effectively knocking him out of the battle.

Chief Bast evacuated himself from the Death Star to appear in the X-mas special, still a trusted officer, not executed. Col. Veers appears in the sort-of-canon Tie Fighter game, and General Tagge appears in Marvel comics. The time from torpedo entry to reactor detonation was short enough to suggest they were well away before Luke completed his run, and didn't wait until a torp actually went in. They continued their careers as trusted Imperial officers, and Veers even got a promotion.

Mr. Saxton covers this subject in better detail then I could.

The suggestion to evacuate was made by Bast, an experienced officer; perhaps Imperial protocols are a little different than the real ones you are referencing from. Evacuate does not necessarily entail running away from battle.

Are you kidding? That is exactly what evacuation is! It is a high offense in any military service, INCLUDING the Imperial Navy. In the Clone Wars, Captain Pellaeon retreated from a battle without provocation (he believed there was a threat that turned out to be nonexistent), and while he wasn't executed, he spent the next fourty or so years of his career as a measly XO. That is a serious downgrade. Like it or not, there would have been serious implications for an evacuation of the station in the middle of a battle for a threat that, in reality did not exist. As I stated earlier, it was a very precise combination of factors that no one could have predicted that resulted in the destruction of the Death Star.

They could still direct the battle from a command vessel screened by ties; basically all they have to do is get clear and order it to fire. The EU presents any number of smaller vessels that could conceivably have been aboard the Death Star at the time that could serve as a remote command vessel.

There is a difference between evacuation and transferring one's flag. There were no other Imperial vessels in the system, so where would Tarkin have transferred his flag? To a TIE? A Lambda shuttle?

How do you explain this to the Emperor? Succeed and risk demerits for doubting his own creation? He might find himself rewarded for destroying the rebellion, then retired to a window seat in favour of his political competition. Tarkin's manner was tight and impatient, and in my opinion lacked the fierce confidence he displayed blasting Alderaan.

You do realize that this last paragraph supports my argument? I am arguing that evacuation was not a pragmatic move, and you counter that by saying he could have been punished if he did evacuate the station?

Tarkin did not state disbelief in the force, merely that the Jedi religion and its powers were no longer a factor. He was not surprised when Vader force-choked Motti. The fighters were seen as a threat; he was not at all confident and jubilant in his 'moment of triumph'.

He had worked with Vader before. Watch the movie. Tarkin quite clearly believes that Vader is the last of his kind. Tarkin had no reason to believe that the dead spirit of a Jedi Master was guiding a Force attuned future-Jedi Master to destroy the Death Star. No way he could have come to such a conclusion. Ever.

There had to be more ties than those in the trench; of ~30 fighters, only three survived, and the station point defense appears to only hit fighters after thay had been lamed by ties.

IIRC, no more then a squadron of TIE's were launched. In Star Wars, a squadron is approximately 12. The fact is, few TIE's were launched. Not only should more have been launched, but sooner in the battle.

That dosen't mean Tarkin does not believe in the power of the force. It only means that Force powers don't matter anymore as effective opposition. Jedi religion is an interpretation of the force phenomenon, and here he has the last trained weilder at his right hand.

That's exactly my point! The only threat to the Death Star WAS the Force, and there was NO reason for Tarkin to believe it could POSSIBLY be used in the way it was. Period.

If there were NO threat, his ace pilot would not be in the trench; just let them take pointless potshots while dealing first with the ones shooting up a small fortune in gunnery towers and sensors.

Actually, the EU indicated Darth Vader had a penchant for doing this during battle. Not only that, but Tarkin did NOT order the fighters to scramble. Vader did. And Vader was Force sensitive. Tarkin wasn't.

The flaw existed, and there was a better chance to exploit it at Yavin than at some future date. Bast clearly stated "There is a danger" when he reported the tactical analysis. The flaw looks like something overlooked, found out at the last minute, and considered an unlikely threat unless someone had the plans and could do an analysis with something approaching the competance of the Empire.

Yes, there was a flaw. However, as can be seen in the events of the movie, the ONLY way the flaw was able to be exploited was the use of the Force by Luke Skywalker. The movie makes it quite clear that, without the Force, the flaw could not have been exploited.

Given the manoevorability of SW torps, and the fact that the near misses were very close indeed, I'd say the rebels chances were very good.

Given the fact that the only way the plan worked was the last minute use of the Force, I'd say the Rebels chances were incredibly slim. Which matches the fact that it is explicitly stated in the movie how slim the chances of the attack succeeding were. Remember Wedge Antilles?

They could charter the Falcon.

The Falcon was on its way out, Han wanted no part in the Rebellion, remember?

Some stuff can be replaced; persons with important knowledge/skills, and data, not so. In fact the equipment infratructure of a formal fighting force would be useless against the Death Star. The rebellion would be likely be finshed as that sort of entity. They could always try to sabotage the Death Star some other way, and operate covertly on planets too important to blast. Alderaan was considered a non-imperial planet and useful example. Yavin was uninhabited. Not all planets are so expendable, and given the extensive underground society in the SW universe, the rebellion could be a nuisance for some time. Much less effective, of course.

An extensive underground society can only exist if you have an ally who is willing to harbour you. If the Rebellion were to fail in destroying the Death Star, no one would be willing to harbour the Rebellion, because their planet would be destroyed if the Empire ever found out. Hell, Alderaan's link to the Rebellion was tenuous and it was blown up without warning.

Actually, Tarkin should have had fighters run at the rebels head-on, placing flights between the rebels and their target, not chase them. That was Vader's call.

... which is exactly my point. That's what I've been saying.

Such an order would not necessarily demand more fighters.

Sure it would. Vader's plan took advantage of the narrow space the Rebel fighters were being forced into (the trench) and the distraction caused by the point-defense. He was able to use a small number of fighters to good advantage. In open space, however, they would need more fighters because the TIE's would, quite simply, be outclassed.

"Grand Moff" is a paramilitary rank. A full military ranker advised evacuation. Tarkin did not say, "Evacuation is ludicris, they can't possibly set off a chain reaction", Tarkin said "Evacuate? At our moment of victory?!" That is a political reaction, not a military one.

Now you are whoring semantics. Tarkin had on reason to believe that there was a sincere military threat to the station.

A real military commander might go through the motions and read the report through rolling eyes. An impatient political general probably would not. A real military commander might take precautions against Murphy's law backed by a sound analysis. A political general's judgement might be a bit clouded by non-military considerations. A real military commander is still a human being; training and experience may assert itself insightfully, but not always, and military men have made ludicris decisons under pressure. Real military men presented Tarkin's scenario with no hindsight might order a limited evacuation, or they might stick it out, for reasons that will appear sublime or ridiculous only in hindsight.

Bullshit. No real military commander could have possible predicted the outcome of the Battle of Yavin unless they were attuned to the Force. Tarkin had NO reason to EVER expect the incredibly unlikely series of circumstances that led to the Death Star's destruction.

If Tarkin was Force influenced by the Emperor, to please the Emperor and destroy the rebellion, then he would not necessarily be in his right mind.

What are you talking about?

At Endor, the sudden loss of Sith influence was the undoing of the Imperial Fleet, which even after the loss of the Death Star II, should have been able to avenge their Emperor.

The Emperor was not present at the Battle of Yavin, last I checked. And besides, the Emperor was not the one doing the battle meditation, it was Grand Admiral Nial Declann, who was also not present at the Battle of Yavin.

That might explain why Tarkin didn't correct the exhaust shaft problem (if he knew about it) before the Death Star's first serious military trial, did allow an important prisoner and possibly the Death Star plans to escape to the enemy, and fail to take precautions against what an experienced analyst, qualified to be on his staff, considered a threat worthy of evacuation. If the Emperor were using Tarkins political ambition to push him, errors in judgement guided by tainted ambition would also be magnified.

The problem was not fixed because no rational mind would believe that it was a serious threat. The Rebels used it as an absolutely last-ditch, grasping-at-straws attempt, even they were not confident of their ability to win the battle. The Force destroyed the Death Star.

[General Brock]

Doctor Doom wrote:

Tarkin refused to scramble fighters. Vader scrambled some at the last minute, quite possible because he sensed the presence of the Force. That Tarkin didn't countermand Vader means nothing (in fact, the EU makes it clear that Vader made a hobby of taking his fighter for "joy rides" in battle to rack up his kill count). The Rebel fighters never should have made it as far as the trench, plain and simple.

The ties would have to intercept the rebels outside the Death Star's sheilds, where the blastwave from Yavin IV's demise might catch them. Tarkin would have to delay firing if the dogfighting and retrieval of unprotected ships lasted too long. The rebels didn't linger to duel, either, but dove into the cover of the station's surface structures as soon as they could.

Normally, fighters can't do very much damage to a capital ship without support from more powerful vessels or ground based weaponry; Yavin IV did not appear to have either. Maybe Tarkin wasn't planning on interdiction (like Vader at Hoth). Perhaps he planned to just zip in and blast the planet, allowing survivors to escape and spread terror as firsthand witnesses. Tarkin did not deploy the Death Star's escort vessels, including fighters, because he did not intend to contain rebel escapees. Rebel fighter squadrons were probably not expected to attack when they were detected, and assumed to be fleeing. When they closed on the station and began doing damage, Vader intervened, and when several were detected breaking off from the main group, Vader know to deal with them personally.

Furthermore, who says the fighters have to be within the trench itself? It would be easy enough to have fighters coming in from "above," shooting "down" at the fighters within. Would have allowed for the deployment of more fighters, could have prevented the Millenium Falcon from saving Luke at the last moment, and indeed could have destroyed all the fighters in the trench because the fire would be coming from an angle they didn't expect. Hell, the Millenium Falcon used this tactic, and surprised a Sith Lord, effectively knocking him out of the battle.

Vader was in charge, and he decided to pursue in the trench.

Furthermore, the 'Falcon's guns track more flexibly; a fighter has to point more or less directly at its target. Han also dosen't worry about collateral damage; the ties would.

Mr. Saxton covers this subject in better detail then I could.

I read those pages too. This debate is kind of fun, but not breaking new ground.

(Trivia error: On consulting the Wiki and Saxton tech commentaries, Veers appears in Force Commander, Cassio Tagge was apparently the General who did die on the DS, leaving his brother Ulric to appear in the comics. I always preferred the first interpratation, but according to the Wikipedia, the Star Wars Encyclopedia says General Tagge did die as Cassio Tagge. Apologies; my memory has, um, short-shelf problems. This leaves Bast as the only confirmed Death Star survivor who could have known the rebel attack analysis.)

Are you kidding? That is exactly what evacuation is! It is a high offense in any military service, INCLUDING the Imperial Navy. In the Clone Wars, Captain Pellaeon retreated from a battle without provocation (he believed there was a threat that turned out to be nonexistent), and while he wasn't executed, he spent the next fourty or so years of his career as a measly XO. That is a serious downgrade. Like it or not, there would have been serious implications for an evacuation of the station in the middle of a battle for a threat that, in reality did not exist. As I stated earlier, it was a very precise combination of factors that no one could have predicted that resulted in the destruction of the Death Star.

A design flaw turned the Death Star into a bomb. A creditable bomb threat made to a military comand centre would result in its immediate evacuation, even in the middle of battle. Bast identified the threat and suggested evacuation. He would not recommend a high offense. Tarkin did not call it a high offense, either. Furthermore, the Death Star would not have retreated from battle, which was what Pellaeon's units did.

Tarkin is obviously having trouble owning up to a couple of major oversights. The entire space station could be taken out by one proton torpedo down an exhaust port, the equatorial trench provides an almost completely unimpeded path to it, and he's the one responsible. Even without the port problem, the rebel fighters are causing a lot of damage even as they are destroyed by defenses and ties.

There is a difference between evacuation and transferring one's flag. There were no other Imperial vessels in the system, so where would Tarkin have transferred his flag? To a TIE? A Lambda shuttle?

From the Wikipedia:

It also carried assault shuttles, Skipray Blastboats, strike cruisers, drop ships, land vehicles, and support ships as well as 7,200 TIE fighters. For surface protection it sported 2,000 turbolaser batteries, 2,500 ion cannons and at least 700 tractor beam projectors, plus, of course, the superlaser. Even without the primary weapon, the Death Star carried enough troops and ships to occupy an entire star system by force.

Somewhere in there would be the equivalent of an "Air Force One" capable vessel. Even the Emperor travelled in a Lambda shuttle; he's not going to cut himself off from command and control every time he sets out on a jaunt. The movie never actually mentioned what Tarkin's personal ship actually was, only that it was there to be had. I doubt it was a tie fighter, and it was probably more than a stock lambda, and sufficient to oversee the battle from.

You do realize that this last paragraph supports my argument? I am arguing that evacuation was not a pragmatic move, and you counter that by saying he could have been punished if he did evacuate the station?

Well, I am arguing that Tarkin acted like a political general, and he was not overconfident or really incompetant. He was impatient to destroy the rebellion and displayed some poor judgement, took one too many chances in favour of expedience at the last moment, and lost. Evacuation - transferring his flag - to a vessel not in danger of exploding, was not a practical political move, but possibly a pragmatic military one. With the prescence of Darth Vader, the low odds of a successful strike on the exhaust port, and the political fallout of graphically admitting his Death Star had serious, glaring flaws, he chose to stand ground.

You are trying to radicalize my position; it was clearly politically inexpedient to evacuate, whereas there was a military argument to evacuate the control centre - "transfer flag" to a vessel not suddenly turned into a deathtrap by a major design flaw.

You are trying to say the rebels had no chance at all, against the word of an Imperial combat analysis, and that evacuation/flag transfer was militarily impractical, even though Bast thought Tarkin could and should evacuate to his personal ship. You also say Tarkin was militarily incompetant for not launching more ties, even though between Vader's ties and the defenses in place, Luke was lucky to get off his final shot at all, and the Tarkin 'doctrine of terror' would discourage sending up fighters to kill witnesses to the Death Star's potency. Sending in fighters alone without capital ship support was probably as unexpected as Lando's close engagement of star destroyers at Endor, and when it became evident the fighters were attacking, not running, Vader intervened.

He had worked with Vader before. Watch the movie. Tarkin quite clearly believes that Vader is the last of his kind. Tarkin had no reason to believe that the dead spirit of a Jedi Master was guiding a Force attuned future-Jedi Master to destroy the Death Star. No way he could have come to such a conclusion. Ever.

You misunderstand me. Tarkin was not expecting the Force to be used to aid the enemy. That does not mean he didn't believe in the Force or realize how it could influence a battle. Having Vader on his side was probably very reassuring, as he never suspected the Rebels could field a Force sensitive to counter the advantage.

The Jedi are extinct, not the Force; that was the point I was trying to emphasize. I don't see how that could be interpreted as saying Tarkin should have expected a Force-sensitive enemy pilot to appear. In his experience, Force usage has to be trained to be effective, and Jedi had the only such training.

Based on the human norm odds alone, there was a threat to the station, and he did not want to acknowledge it. Even had a full Jedi been out there, and he knew it, Tarkin still would not risk discrediting the Death Star and endangering his political fortunes by evacuating. There was a chance of military failure, whether he evacuated or not. There was a guarantee of political failure, should he be forced to admit the Death Star had to be evacuated because of a handful of fighters, even if Yavin was destroyed.

IIRC, no more then a squadron of TIE's were launched. In Star Wars, a squadron is approximately 12. The fact is, few TIE's were launched. Not only should more have been launched, but sooner in the battle.

However many ties launched almost extinguished the rebel defense. Luke almost died thrice; the first time a wingmate saved him, the second, he zigged when he should have zigged under fire from Vader, and the last, Han and the Milennium Falcon interceded. Had Yavin IV been destroyed, Tarkin could then quietly fix the Death Star design flaw, bury Bast's analysis and no-one need know it was ever a serious problem.

That's exactly my point! The only threat to the Death Star WAS the Force, and there was NO reason for Tarkin to believe it could POSSIBLY be used in the way it was. Period.

The threat to the Death Star was an poorly defended main exhaust port, that could be exploited by a proton torpedo. That previous rebel assault runs missed is playing the odds, not demonstrating an impossible target. Force or no Force, there was enough of a chance of success that Bast was not on the station to die with it.

Actually, the EU indicated Darth Vader had a penchant for doing this during battle. Not only that, but Tarkin did NOT order the fighters to scramble. Vader did. And Vader was Force sensitive. Tarkin wasn't.

Darth Vader was out there dealing with the fighter threat; Tarkin knew this. OK, so Tarkin didn't scramble fighters; why should Tarkin launch more fighters if Vader's elite squadron was handling things and not requesting backup? By the time Luke is making his final run, there isn't anyone else save for that unnamed Y-wing.

Yes, there was a flaw. However, as can be seen in the events of the movie, the ONLY way the flaw was able to be exploited was the use of the Force by Luke Skywalker. The movie makes it quite clear that, without the Force, the flaw could not have been exploited.

The movie also makes clear that the rebels have a chance of success, without the Force. Without reading the actual report, who is to say how many runs on average it would take for one to be successful? The Force made the difference, certainly, but the previous two runs could just as easily have scored. With Vader on their tail, their chances of success were much reduced, but they got off shots, even if accuracy suffered under duress. Luke's last shot was unopposed, with Han cheering him on and Vader spinning into space. Even if he didn't embrace the Force, he still might have nailed that womp rat.

Only a jaded moviegoer would have realized those runs were doomed to fail so Luke could embrace the Force save the day. Both failed runs kept me, at least, on the edge of my seat the first time I saw the movie and still does. It was not, if the movie were real life, a given that Luke was going to embrace the Force and blow up the station. Kenobi's ghost had to cajole him twice to turn off the targeting computer.

Given the fact that the only way the plan worked was the last minute use of the Force, I'd say the Rebels chances were incredibly slim. Which matches the fact that it is explicitly stated in the movie how slim the chances of the attack succeeding were. Remember Wedge Antilles?

Wedge Antilles then is a 17-year-old fighter pilot, not a stats computer. Luke could hit womp rats from a T-16, which probably didn't have much of a targeting computer, and they aren't much bigger than 2m.

The rebel's chances were always slim; at the same time, they alarmed Chief Bast, who was probably using human odds in his analysis, and not factoring in extinct Jedi.

The Falcon was on its way out, Han wanted no part in the Rebellion, remember?

Yes; Han didn't want to contribute to the attack on the Death Star. That dosen't mean he'd turn down a non-combat refugee charter if the price were right. He hung around long enough to be there to rescue Luke; smuggling is his trade. If the rebels wanted a freighter, they had one.

An extensive underground society can only exist if you have an ally who is willing to harbour you. If the Rebellion were to fail in destroying the Death Star, no one would be willing to harbour the Rebellion, because their planet would be destroyed if the Empire ever found out. Hell, Alderaan's link to the Rebellion was tenuous and it was blown up without warning.

Who said the planet would willingly harbour the rebellion? A resistance cell does not need offical support. A minority of sympathizers could harbour a cell, in spite of majority and government disapproval. Rebel activity could disrupt Imperial production and activities on a planet, but destroying the planet would remove the asset completely.

Tenuous? Princess Leia of the Alderaanian Royal Family was smuggling Death Star plans. Bail Organa isn't exactly the Empire's greatest proponent. Maybe Vader couldn't use the force to extract what became of the plans, but she couldn't deny her family's involvement. The penalty for that level of high treason could be expected to be harsh, given that the Emperor's whim had become due process.

Sure it would. Vader's plan took advantage of the narrow space the Rebel fighters were being forced into (the trench) and the distraction caused by the point-defense. He was able to use a small number of fighters to good advantage. In open space, however, they would need more fighters because the TIE's would, quite simply, be outclassed.

Just one tie in the trench flying head-on could mess up an attack run. Suppose only 12 ties +Vader scrambled, and ~21 X and Y-wings are fighting more or less in the open. Only one survived in the open (an unnamed Y-wing) and two from the trench (Wedge and Luke). That suggests the point defenses were better than let on, Vader's elite squadron did very well for themselves minus Vader and his wingmen, or there were a lot more ties fighting than just 9 or 10.

Now you are whoring semantics. Tarkin had on reason to believe that there was a sincere military threat to the station.

Then why was Tarkin so nervous during the ignition countdown? I figure he was suddenly not so sure of himself, with rebel torpedos knocking about the exhast shaft and Vader taking his sweet time stopping them.

As for semantics, what is the difference between Tarkin evacuating on his personal ship, and a flag transfer? Bast would know the penalty for running away; as far as I am concerned, he was advocating your 'flag transfer'. Tarkin had every reason to believe the station was at risk; a trusted analyst was reporting it. No matter the odds on datapad, every near miss is not going to sit well with him.

Bullshit. No real military commander could have possible predicted the outcome of the Battle of Yavin unless they were attuned to the Force. Tarkin had NO reason to EVER expect the incredibly unlikely series of circumstances that led to the Death Star's destruction.

Tarkin oversaw the Death Star project, and was responsible for planning defense around thwarting capital ships only. He was correct; rebel fighters did cosmetic damage to the station surface and had no chance of hiting a critical target... Except straight down the thermal exhaust port, which had no particle sheilding option, no baffles or turns in the shaft, and point defense that did not cover the equatorial trench.

It is a judgement call how far the odds are allowed to be taken. A conservative military commander would correct the flaw before battle, but even a good commander, under pressure to complete a mission, might not.

In theory, even in a pitch battle against a large force of capital ships, a large enough number of fighters/torpedoes could skip the trench run and rush the blowhole directly. It opens directy into space.

What are you talking about?

The Emperor boosted the agents of his Empire through the Force; the ROTJ novelization also indicated so. One of the problems with the Imperial military deduced by Thrawn was that the Imperials were Force-addled, tainted and unable to excel, so he needed Jorus Cabaouth to provide direct battle meditation for the fleet that remained.

The Emperor was not present at the Battle of Yavin, last I checked. And besides, the Emperor was not the one doing the battle meditation, it was Grand Admiral Nial Declann, who was also not present at the Battle of Yavin.

I assumed the Emperor's dark force alchemy was all-pervasive, whether his people knew or wanted it or not, and not just confined to deliberate instances of battle meditiation. Also, if Tarkin served in battles where the Emperor applied his will, some permanent damage to his own might occur. The Jedi were very leery about using telepathic powers on large groups of people.

On the other hand, I could be mashing Dark Empire into my memory of the movies and novelizations.

The problem was not fixed because no rational mind would believe that it was a serious threat. The Rebels used it as an absolutely last-ditch, grasping-at-straws attempt, even they were not confident of their ability to win the battle. The Force destroyed the Death Star.

A rational mind would note that a flaw that allows one fighter-borne torpedo to destroy an armoured, sheilded defended space station in one shot should be corrected as soon as possible. This is not something that could happen if there was a failure in conventional defense; it is a flaw that allows an attacker to bypass armour, sheilds, fighters, and turbolasers. At least tack a couple of turbolasers at the port before going into action (if it was known beforehand).

The rebels knew they had enough of a shot to try, instead of saving their fighters and evacuating what they could on the 'Falcon. There's always a way to fight if there's another day.

The Force did not destroy the Death Star, Luke did. The Force improved his probability of success, but the Force is no guarantee of success. Otherwise, Vader, both strong and trained in the Force, would have shot Luke down the first time instead of just scorching R2D2.

[Doctor Doom]

Re: General Brock

The ties would have to intercept the rebels outside the Death Star's sheilds, where the blastwave from Yavin IV's demise might catch them. Tarkin would have to delay firing if the dogfighting and retrieval of unprotected ships lasted too long. The rebels didn't linger to duel, either, but dove into the cover of the station's surface structures as soon as they could.

IIRC, it took around 20 minutes for the Death Star to get into firing range of Yavin IV. Easily enough time to swamp the Rebel attack force. It took no more then ten minutes, IIRC, for Darth Vader's squadron to wipe out almost all of the Rebel fighters.

Normally, fighters can't do very much damage to a capital ship without support from more powerful vessels or ground based weaponry; Yavin IV did not appear to have either. Maybe Tarkin wasn't planning on interdiction (like Vader at Hoth). Perhaps he planned to just zip in and blast the planet, allowing survivors to escape and spread terror as firsthand witnesses. Tarkin did not deploy the Death Star's escort vessels, including fighters, because he did not intend to contain rebel escapees. Rebel fighter squadrons were probably not expected to attack when they were detected, and assumed to be fleeing. When they closed on the station and began doing damage, Vader intervened, and when several were detected breaking off from the main group, Vader know to deal with them personally.

The Rebel fighters were on a direct course with the Death Star itself. Only an incompetent officer would assume they weren't attempting a last ditch attack effort.

Vader was in charge, and he decided to pursue in the trench.

Nope, Tarkin was in charge. It wasn't until circa the events of TESB that Darth Vader would become the Supreme Commander of the Imperial Armed Forces.

Furthermore, the 'Falcon's guns track more flexibly; a fighter has to point more or less directly at its target. Han also dosen't worry about collateral damage; the ties would.

That's not the point, the point is that it would take the Rebel fighters by complete surprise.

Tarkin is obviously having trouble owning up to a couple of major oversights. The entire space station could be taken out by one proton torpedo down an exhaust port, the equatorial trench provides an almost completely unimpeded path to it, and he's the one responsible. Even without the port problem, the rebel fighters are causing a lot of damage even as they are destroyed by defenses and ties.

As the movie showed, however, due to the tight turn, small target area, and jamming by the Death Star, the Force was necessary to exploit the design flaw.

Somewhere in there would be the equivalent of an "Air Force One" capable vessel. Even the Emperor travelled in a Lambda shuttle; he's not going to cut himself off from command and control every time he sets out on a jaunt. The movie never actually mentioned what Tarkin's personal ship actually was, only that it was there to be had. I doubt it was a tie fighter, and it was probably more than a stock lambda, and sufficient to oversee the battle from.

I concede this point, but I would like to know if there is a more authoritative source then Wikipedia, which is not a terribly good one.

Well, I am arguing that Tarkin acted like a political general, and he was not overconfident or really incompetant. He was impatient to destroy the rebellion and displayed some poor judgement, took one too many chances in favour of expedience at the last moment, and lost. Evacuation - transferring his flag - to a vessel not in danger of exploding, was not a practical political move, but possibly a pragmatic military one. With the prescence of Darth Vader, the low odds of a successful strike on the exhaust port, and the political fallout of graphically admitting his Death Star had serious, glaring flaws, he chose to stand ground.

I'm meerly pointing out that a pragmatic military move would not have been to evacuate the station, but simply to deploy more fighters.

You are trying to radicalize my position; it was clearly politically inexpedient to evacuate, whereas there was a military argument to evacuate the control centre - "transfer flag" to a vessel not suddenly turned into a deathtrap by a major design flaw.

And I am pointing out that the only way the design flaw could be exploited was in a very precise and exact turn of circumstances making use of the Force that could not possibly have been replicated, thus annulling the expediency of an evacuation. With hindsight, obviously, it would have been the right thing to do, but for a military man with no working knowledge of the Force, he acted accordingly. It was the failure to deploy a fighter screen that shows military incompetence/overconfidence.

You are trying to say the rebels had no chance at all, against the word of an Imperial combat analysis, and that evacuation/flag transfer was militarily impractical, even though Bast thought Tarkin could and should evacuate to his personal ship.

One officer recognized the nature of the design flaw that they were trying to exploit. Without Luke and Obi-Wan and the Force, the Rebels quite simply did not have a chance, as the movie shows.

You also say Tarkin was militarily incompetant for not launching more ties, even though between Vader's ties and the defenses in place, Luke was lucky to get off his final shot at all, and the Tarkin 'doctrine of terror' would discourage sending up fighters to kill witnesses to the Death Star's potency.

The fact that Tarkin did not deploy an appropriate fighter screen does show military incompetence.

Sending in fighters alone without capital ship support was probably as unexpected as Lando's close engagement of star destroyers at Endor, and when it became evident the fighters were attacking, not running, Vader intervened.

It was obvious the fighters were attacking long before Vader scrambled his squadron, and even then Tarkin did not attempt to launch any countermeasures.

You misunderstand me. Tarkin was not expecting the Force to be used to aid the enemy. That does not mean he didn't believe in the Force or realize how it could influence a battle. Having Vader on his side was probably very reassuring, as he never suspected the Rebels could field a Force sensitive to counter the advantage.

Exactly. He had no reason to believe the Force could be used as a weapon against him, so had no reason to believe the design flaw could be exploited.

Based on the human norm odds alone, there was a threat to the station, and he did not want to acknowledge it. Even had a full Jedi been out there, and he knew it, Tarkin still would not risk discrediting the Death Star and endangering his political fortunes by evacuating. There was a chance of military failure, whether he evacuated or not. There was a guarantee of political failure, should he be forced to admit the Death Star had to be evacuated because of a handful of fighters, even if Yavin was destroyed.

The only reason the Rebels had a chance was because of the Force. Without the Force, the design flaw could not be exploited.

However many ties launched almost extinguished the rebel defense. Luke almost died thrice; the first time a wingmate saved him, the second, he zigged when he should have zigged under fire from Vader, and the last, Han and the Milennium Falcon interceded. Had Yavin IV been destroyed, Tarkin could then quietly fix the Death Star design flaw, bury Bast's analysis and no-one need know it was ever a serious problem.

Exactly. But Tarkin failed to launch an appropriate fighter screen, which would be the standard protocol for such a situation, thus showing a level of military incompetence/overconfidence.

The threat to the Death Star was an poorly defended main exhaust port, that could be exploited by a proton torpedo. That previous rebel assault runs missed is playing the odds, not demonstrating an impossible target. Force or no Force, there was enough of a chance of success that Bast was not on the station to die with it.

It took the Force for the design flaw to be exploited. Wedge Antilles, an ace pilot, believed the shot to be impossible (for a normal pilot), which turned out to be true.

Darth Vader was out there dealing with the fighter threat; Tarkin knew this. OK, so Tarkin didn't scramble fighters; why should Tarkin launch more fighters if Vader's elite squadron was handling things and not requesting backup? By the time Luke is making his final run, there isn't anyone else save for that unnamed Y-wing.

Tarkin should have launched fighters long before Vader scrambled them at the last minute. Hell, by all rights he should have launched fighters as soon as he entered the system. Ever heard of a CAP?

The movie also makes clear that the rebels have a chance of success, without the Force. Without reading the actual report, who is to say how many runs on average it would take for one to be successful? The Force made the difference, certainly, but the previous two runs could just as easily have scored. With Vader on their tail, their chances of success were much reduced, but they got off shots, even if accuracy suffered under duress. Luke's last shot was unopposed, with Han cheering him on and Vader spinning into space. Even if he didn't embrace the Force, he still might have nailed that womp rat.

The movie makes it quite clear that, without the Force, the attack would have failed. If Luke Skywalker had not been there with the help of Obi-Wan Kenobi, the Rebels would have lost.

Wedge Antilles then is a 17-year-old fighter pilot, not a stats computer. Luke could hit womp rats from a T-16, which probably didn't have much of a targeting computer, and they aren't much bigger than 2m.

Hitting womp rats doesn't require a 90 degree + sharp turn at high velocities in the midst of heavy jamming, while under fire from enemy fighters.

The rebel's chances were always slim; at the same time, they alarmed Chief Bast, who was probably using human odds in his analysis, and not factoring in extinct Jedi.

We have no evidence that Chief Bast used any sort of detailed analysis, he simply realized the Rebel attack plan when he saw fighters going down the trench towards the exhaust port.

Tenuous? Princess Leia of the Alderaanian Royal Family was smuggling Death Star plans. Bail Organa isn't exactly the Empire's greatest proponent. Maybe Vader couldn't use the force to extract what became of the plans, but she couldn't deny her family's involvement. The penalty for that level of high treason could be expected to be harsh, given that the Emperor's whim had become due process.

It was still a member state of the Empire. Just because the local senator (who was just out of a job, remember?) complains of the Emperor's policy does not a clear link to the Rebellion make.

Just one tie in the trench flying head-on could mess up an attack run. Suppose only 12 ties +Vader scrambled, and ~21 X and Y-wings are fighting more or less in the open. Only one survived in the open (an unnamed Y-wing) and two from the trench (Wedge and Luke). That suggests the point defenses were better than let on, Vader's elite squadron did very well for themselves minus Vader and his wingmen, or there were a lot more ties fighting than just 9 or 10.

You are missing the point. Tarkin failed to deploy an appropriate CAP or fighter screen. This shows a level of military incompetence. Hell, he had at least one fighter on patrol after Alderaan was destroyed (remember the fighter the Falcon ran into?).

Then why was Tarkin so nervous during the ignition countdown? I figure he was suddenly not so sure of himself, with rebel torpedos knocking about the exhast shaft and Vader taking his sweet time stopping them.

IIRC, he was more pensive then nervous. In any case, this proves absolutely nothing. So a military commander is engaged in a battle that could potentially destroy one of the last major threats to the Galactic Empire, why shouldn't he be pensive?

The Emperor boosted the agents of his Empire through the Force; the ROTJ novelization also indicated so. One of the problems with the Imperial military deduced by Thrawn was that the Imperials were Force-addled, tainted and unable to excel, so he needed Jorus Cabaouth to provide direct battle meditation for the fleet that remained.

The Emperor never canonically used battle meditation. It was Grand Admiral Nial Declann, Thrawn's analysis was incorrect. In any case, the Emperor was not present at Yavin, making this irrelevant.

The Force did not destroy the Death Star, Luke did. The Force improved his probability of success, but the Force is no guarantee of success.

The movie made it quite clear that the use of the Force was the only reason the attack succeeded.




(The reason I didn't respond to every single point you made was that I didn't want to be repetitious, there were several points where I would simply be repeating arguments I already made).

[Morilore]

All I'm saying: Not scrambling fighters and winning is more impressive than scrambling fighters and winning. Because the former is more impressive, there is less of a chance of systems rebelling after that course of action.

Why of course, because after all, in a scenario where the Empire flippantly destroyed two planets to defeat the Rebellion, everyone would give a single flying fuck about the few pissant fighters spitting lasers at each other in the background.

Or not.

[Cykeisme]

If Yavin IV had been destroyed, not only would no one know that the Empire deployed a thousand TIE Fighters to destroy a pitiful Rebel starfighter resistance.. no one would probably even care.

It's true that the exhaust port was hardly a design flaw. Even with active targeting computers, Wedge deemed it an almost impossible shot. With the Rebel sensors and targeting computers jammed, the chances were insignificant. It was truly a last-ditch attempt, grasping at straws, as someone put it.
The will of the Force makes things happen, though.

[defanatic]

Now... If they had covered the entire death star in Ysalamiri...?

And so on. But the end point is they didn't, they lost.

I personally think the Moff shoulda deployed more fighters. Many, many, many more.

[Cykeisme]

I personally think the Moff shoulda deployed more fighters. Many, many, many more.

Yup, that's a given. Sending out just 120 (they could have easily done 1,200) instead of 12 would have done the job. Force be with him or not, Luke wouldn't have gotten off the winning shot with that many enemy starfighters around.