[jesusfreak]The Borg vrs. the Empire

[Mith]

So who do you think would win? The Empire or the borg? The Empire has the numbers, but the Borg are able to adapt. The battle takes place in the Delta quadrent with 1,000 borg ships against 600 ISD, 100 SSD, the Deathstar (the first one), and 299 cruisors.

[Noble Ire]

Have you actually even looked at any of the responses to your other posts? If you had, I think the answer would be obvious; a handful of Star Destroyers could run riot over any Borg force that they could possibly amass. A dreadnaught or the Death Star is simply vast over kill. And no, Borg shields wouldn't be able to adapt, because turbolasers aren't frequency-based.

Of course, you're probably not going to read this post either, are you?

[Surlethe]

Holy mother of Christ, what a slaughter! The Empire is literally trillions of times more powerful than any Milky Way civilization; nothing is going to save the Borg from a score of ISDs, let alone a fucking Death Star.

[Lord Revan]

As it already said that force is overkill in so big margin that it's not even funny, the Borg can't addapt overwhelming firepower (as it was proven in ST:FC) and the PD guns of typical Imperial ship pose a serious threat to federation ships (the main anti-ship weapons destroy UFP ships outright with one shot) and Borg can't with stand pitched battle with a large Federation fleet (much larger then the taskforce of 39(IIRC) ships from BOBW).

[Mith]

I tend to dissagree. Their is nothing to suggest that the Borgs couldn't adapt to Imperial weapons, but even so your forgetting about their weapons. They could cut up the Imperial ships, not to mention the fact that they can beam to their ships and began assimulation.

[LongVin]

Empire in 14 seconds. First Round TKO

[Noble Ire]

I tend to dissagree. Their is nothing to suggest that the Borgs couldn't adapt to Imperial weapons, but even so your forgetting about their weapons. They could cut up the Imperial ships, not to mention the fact that they can beam to their ships and began assimulation.

And how do you propose that the Borg could adapt to raw energy several orders of magnitude greater than virtually anything they've ever witnessed?

I would also be absolutely enthrawled to read evidence supporting your conclusion about Borg firepower. So, when do we get to see it?

[Crossroads Inc.]

You have a BunBun avatar.. Surly you must be cool enough to heave read the main site? If you are here you most know by now that the people here will tell you a single ISD could destroy a Fleet of Borg Cubes. They have math, calculations, and REALLY Big numbers. Hounestly, you don't want to stir up this hornets nest...

[Solauren]

Hell, give a competent military commander Executor's task force from ESB for hunting rebels, and he'll have the Borg Collective gone within days.

The Empire vs the Borg is like a Species 8472 vs Borg rematch, with Species 8472 now completly immune to Borg weapons and Species 8472 having x500000 times the ships!

[Stark]

I tend to dissagree.

Good for you. Got anything other than wishful thinking?

Their is nothing to suggest that the Borgs couldn't adapt to Imperial weapons,

Actually, you have to prove they WOULD adapt. We don't have to prove a negative.

but even so your forgetting about their weapons. They could cut up the Imperial ships, not to mention the fact that they can beam to their ships and began assimulation.

Cut up Imperial ships? Don't make me laugh. How will the overcome the ISDs shields? More wishful thinking? And transporters against exotic materials, jamming *AND* shielding? Don't be ridiculous.

[Lord Revan]

put things into persective you're suggesting the equilevant of sniper blowing up an carrier using just his rifle, it's highly likely that Borg weapons don't make even a dent to Imperial shields and the firepower of Imperial Anti-shipguns starts at 200 GT (and those were the Self defense guns of Gloryfied Troop Transport), Destroyer and Cruiser level ships have firepower rivaling UFPs fleets (and we know from FC that the Federation seriously damaged the Borg cube even before Enterprise(NCC-1701-E) arrived).

[Surlethe]

I tend to dissagree. Their is nothing to suggest that the Borgs couldn't adapt to Imperial weapons, but even so your forgetting about their weapons. They could cut up the Imperial ships, not to mention the fact that they can beam to their ships and began assimulation.

A Borg weapon can only put out so much energy. A Star Destroyer's shields can absorb and reradiate trillions of times that energy with ease. It's not the Borg who're going to be doing the cutting up, that's damned sure.

[Utah Jak]

The Borg would be gunnery practice for the Empire. Calling Borg behavior in battle strategy is insulting to any military ever in existence. How many examples of Borg ships even attempting to dodge enemy fire are there? None! Besides, there is canonical evidence that the Borg can't adapt to raw firepower. Remember Species 8472. Their biowank ships absolutely McOwned the Collective (Scorpion parts I&II). The Empire and its obscene level of firepower would no doubt do the same.

[Mith]

In Star Trek TNG, The Best of Both Worlds, Part 1 and 2, it is seen that the Enterprise uses its main deflector dish as a weapon to destroy the Borg cube. The effect of it is not statted to have a frequency, even so the borg was able to adapt to it, thanks to their assimulation of Captain Pichard. So should this not show that the Borgs can adapt to such things?

But even so, I will drop it till I can find more proof. Borg ships are armed with high energy tractor beams, plasma beams, warp field destabilising weapons, and laser cutting beams. That plus they have been seen transporting throught shields, and I don't see any diffrence in SW and ST shields, save that Sw shields are more primitive. They may not be able to defeat the Imperials through pure strength, but with the choas of them beaminga board and assimulating? Keep in mind that they Empire has never seen this kind of tech before.

[Stark]

In Star Trek TNG, The Best of Both Worlds, Part 1 and 2, it is seen that the Enterprise uses its main deflector dish as a weapon to destroy the Borg cube. The effect of it is not statted to have a frequency, even so the borg was able to adapt to it, thanks to their assimulation of Captain Pichard. So should this not show that the Borgs can adapt to such things?

It might, if EVERY OTHER OCCASSION of Borg adaption wasn't defeated by changing frequencies. Further, the Borg (after assimilating Picard) are being blown to shit by photons and phasers in FC - surely they should be immune?

But even so, I will drop it till I can find more proof. Borg ships are armed with high energy tractor beams, plasma beams, warp field destabilising weapons, and laser cutting beams.

Wow, a list of meaningless names. Names don't mean anything: you have to quantify output. Since Borg weapons don't one-hit-kill middling Federation ships (ST:FC) they can hardly be orders of magnitude stronger than regular ST weapons.

That plus they have been seen transporting throught shields,

Which was fixed: they boarded E-E when her shields were down, remember?

and I don't see any diffrence in SW and ST shields, save that Sw shields are more primitive.

That's just funny.

They may not be able to defeat the Imperials through pure strength, but with the choas of them beaminga board and assimulating? Keep in mind that they Empire has never seen this kind of tech before.

They won't be beaming aboard, due to massive shielding, massive jamming and exotic hull materials. Even if they did, blasters, flechettes, gas, etc would meet their boarding groups: you forget the Imperials have *actual* soldiers on their ships. You haven't proved they can a) damage Imperial ships b) beam aboard Imperial ships or c) assimilate Imperial technology. You realise Imperial technology is so far beyond the Borg they might not even know what it is, right?

[Lord Revan]

The Empirial tech base is over 25.000 years old (the Old Republic is that old), while the UFP tech base is about 300 years old (2000 at best) and just about anything can stop trek Transporters (and also during comabt Borg drones never leave their ships (and there not gonna be enough time to pull the stunt they did in ST:FC))

[Connor MacLeod]

In Star Trek TNG, The Best of Both Worlds, Part 1 and 2, it is seen that the Enterprise uses its main deflector dish as a weapon to destroy the Borg cube. The effect of it is not statted to have a frequency, even so the borg was able to adapt to it, thanks to their assimulation of Captain Pichard. So should this not show that the Borgs can adapt to such things?

How the heck does this have relevance to Imperial weaponry, pray tell? Just because you think 'it doesn't have a frequency" doesn't make the comparison valid. You're still ignoring the point on the vast difference in energy output between a SW ship and a ST ship (SW if you are choosing to "forget" is orders of magnitude GREATER than ST.)

Moreover, even if they somehow "Adapt" to the enerrgy, there's still the raw momentum to deal with, and no matter what you think, there is no way in the universe one can "adapt" to momentum (conservation of momentum.)

But even so, I will drop it till I can find more proof. Borg ships are armed with high energy tractor beams, plasma beams, warp field destabilising weapons, and laser cutting beams. That plus they have been seen transporting throught shields, and I don't see any diffrence in SW and ST shields, save that Sw shields are more primitive. They may not be able to defeat the Imperials through pure strength, but with the choas of them beaminga board and assimulating? Keep in mind that they Empire has never seen this kind of tech before.

PRove that SW shields are more primitive. Prove also that the borg will be able to beam on board SW ships succeessfully.

[Noble Ire]

In Star Trek TNG, The Best of Both Worlds, Part 1 and 2, it is seen that the Enterprise uses its main deflector dish as a weapon to destroy the Borg cube. The effect of it is not statted to have a frequency, even so the borg was able to adapt to it, thanks to their assimulation of Captain Pichard. So should this not show that the Borgs can adapt to such things?

All Starfleet weapons seem to be frequency-based, even photon torpedoes. Why would the overloaded deflector dish (keep in mind, the deflectors are also based on frequency) be any different?

But even so, I will drop it till I can find more proof.

That's a sensible idea, actually.
Of course, you immediately follow up with more tripe...

Borg ships are armed with high energy tractor beams

Oh no, the Empire doesn't even have anything close to this mythical 'tractor beam'.

plasma beams

Which would be harmlessly diffused against the shields of even a Carrack cruiser.

warp field destabilising weapons

The Empire doesn't use Warp technology.

laser cutting beams

See plasma beams.

That plus they have been seen transporting throught shields, and I don't see any diffrence in SW and ST shields, save that Sw shields are more primitive.

Again, a complete lack of evidence or quantification.

They may not be able to defeat the Imperials through pure strength, but with the choas of them beaminga board and assimulating?

Even if the Borg could transport through an ISDs shields and armor, there are more than 32,000 crewers on each destroyer, along with hundreds or thousands of fully-armed stormtroopers, and numerous internal defensive systems. While potentially bothersome for a brief time, Borg intruders would be crushed without mercy.

[Mith]

Now that is just plain silly. The Empire dosn't have anything near the complexity of shielding as ST do. And those exotic hauls seem prone to large astroids and such. I have yet to see an impressive Imperial shiled. And may I point out that photons and phasers can change frequencies? And changing frequencies confuse the Borg and make it hard to adapt. It in no terms mean that they can't adapt to weapons that don't use frequncies. You see, when the Borg and the Enterprise where fighting, Commander Shelby told Data to change frequncies to confuse the Borg, not letting them time to adapt to the new frequncies. So you see its not about the Borg not being able to adapt to something without a frequncy, its about keeping ahead of them. And as for your tech... they have assimulated countles races before, and SW tech dosn't exactly blow the mind.

[Stuart Mackey]

In Star Trek TNG, The Best of Both Worlds, Part 1 and 2, it is seen that the Enterprise uses its main deflector dish as a weapon to destroy the Borg cube. The effect of it is not statted to have a frequency, even so the borg was able to adapt to it, thanks to their assimulation of Captain Pichard. So should this not show that the Borgs can adapt to such things?

I would like to see the how much energy this deflector dish can deliver on target please.

But even so, I will drop it till I can find more proof. Borg ships are armed with high energy tractor beams, plasma beams, warp field destabilising weapons, and laser cutting beams.

Evidence that these will have any effect on Imperial warships please.

That plus they have been seen transporting throught shields, and I don't see any diffrence in SW and ST shields, save that Sw shields are more primitive.

Evidence that Imperial sheilds are more primitive than that of the Borg.
And evidence that the Borg can transport through Imperial hulls {you have not shown what Imperial hulls are made of, this can make a difference}

They may not be able to defeat the Imperials through pure strength, but with the choas of them beaminga board and assimulating?

You rashly assume that the Borg can beam thorugh any thing the Empire has, with out so much as showing how they will accomplish this?

Keep in mind that they Empire has never seen this kind of tech before.

No they havent, and the Borg hasnt seen the Empire. Now start trotting out some evidence to back up your claims.

I would start by investigating the properties of Imperial weapon, the nature of Imperial warship hulls and Hyperdrive and thinking about the results of your investigation.

[Lord Revan]

we Also know that the Galactic (aka Old) Republic (and by extension the Galactic Empire) has had Personal Shielding tech (for both Droids and organics) for at least 4000 years (also ghetto edit:25.000 years old to 25000 years old) and they have developed counters for it (and those counters will work against the Borg (they involve use of physical melee weapons which is something the can't block))

[Stark]

Now that is just plain silly. The Empire dosn't have anything near the complexity of shielding as ST do.

What are you even talking about? SW shields can dissipate thousands, perhaps millions of times the incident energy a ST shield can.

And those exotic hauls seem prone to large astroids and such.

Yeah, because being struck by 300m asteroids is so trivial.

I have yet to see an impressive Imperial shiled.

Alderaans planetary shield deflected the firepower of the Death Star for about a tenth of a second. That's absurdly impressive.

And may I point out that photons and phasers can change frequencies? And changing frequencies confuse the Borg and make it hard to adapt. It in no terms mean that they can't adapt to weapons that don't use frequncies. You see, when the Borg and the Enterprise where fighting, Commander Shelby told Data to change frequncies to confuse the Borg, not letting them time to adapt to the new frequncies. So you see its not about the Borg not being able to adapt to something without a frequncy, its about keeping ahead of them.

I'm not going to pretend to understand your point. The Borg are explictly described as matching frequencies to penetrate shields and neutralise weapons.

And as for your tech... they have assimulated countles races before, and SW tech dosn't exactly blow the mind.

Can you prove any one of those races was anywhere *near* the level of sophistication of the Galactic Empire? The Borg couldn't assimilate S8472, and they're FUCKING ANIMALS. Wow, that's incredible. They're out-computed by Voyagers computer! I imagine you haven't noticed that the ST galaxy was deliberately seeded by aliens, and that the tech of all major races is extraordinarily similar.

[Stuart Mackey]

Now that is just plain silly. The Empire dosn't have anything near the complexity of shielding as ST do.

Evidence please.

And those exotic hauls seem prone to large astroids and such.

So? ST ships are prone to 20th century nukes IIRC

I have yet to see an impressive Imperial shiled.

Would that be because you have never tried to work out SW sheild tolerances or the amount of firepower SW weapons can deliver and compared it to Trek?

And may I point out that photons and phasers can change frequencies?

Yes

And changing frequencies confuse the Borg and make it hard to adapt.

Red herring SW weapons are not frequency based

It in no terms mean that they can't adapt to weapons that don't use frequncies.

Evidence please.

You see, when the Borg and the Enterprise where fighting, Commander Shelby told Data to change frequncies to confuse the Borg, not letting them time to adapt to the new frequncies. So you see its not about the Borg not being able to adapt to something without a frequncy, its about keeping ahead of them.

Strawman. SW weapons fire is not frequency based, so claiming that the empire has to keep ahead of anything is patently false.

And as for your tech... they have assimulated countles races before, and SW tech dosn't exactly blow the mind.

Thats only because you dont know anything about SW Tech.

[Utah Jak]

Now that is just plain silly. The Empire dosn't have anything near the complexity of shielding as ST do. And those exotic hauls seem prone to large astroids and such. I have yet to see an impressive Imperial shiled. And may I point out that photons and phasers can change frequencies? And changing frequencies confuse the Borg and make it hard to adapt. It in no terms mean that they can't adapt to weapons that don't use frequncies. You see, when the Borg and the Enterprise where fighting, Commander Shelby told Data to change frequncies to confuse the Borg, not letting them time to adapt to the new frequncies. So you see its not about the Borg not being able to adapt to something without a frequncy, its about keeping ahead of them. And as for your tech... they have assimulated countles races before, and SW tech dosn't exactly blow the mind.

Have you read any of the other posts or the main site for that matter? The Borg can't adapt to raw firepower! The Borg Collective couldn't withstand the firepower of Species 8472 and due to the fact that they were obliterated within a few shots didn't adapt. The same thing would happen against the Empire. Assmilation is kind of difficult if your target has curbstomped you.

And to respond to the Trekkie favorite: ISD/Asteroid collision... I believe that the novelization states that the Imperial fleet was in the asteriod field for at least a full day. The constant stress of being pounded by hundreds of asteriods would take its toll on any ship.

Even if your fantasy of the Borg damaging an Imperial ship came true, all the ship would have to due is calculate a microjump out of the system and regroup. The Empire has too many advantages over the Borg, including a little thing I like to call: Actual tactics.

[Surlethe]

Now that is just plain silly. The Empire dosn't have anything near the complexity of shielding as ST do. And those exotic hauls seem prone to large astroids and such. I have yet to see an impressive Imperial shiled. And may I point out that photons and phasers can change frequencies? And changing frequencies confuse the Borg and make it hard to adapt. It in no terms mean that they can't adapt to weapons that don't use frequncies. You see, when the Borg and the Enterprise where fighting, Commander Shelby told Data to change frequncies to confuse the Borg, not letting them time to adapt to the new frequncies. So you see its not about the Borg not being able to adapt to something without a frequncy, its about keeping ahead of them. And as for your tech... they have assimulated countles races before, and SW tech dosn't exactly blow the mind.

What makes frequencied weapons so special? And what good would they do against non-frequencied shields?