Why don't the Jedi use their TK more often?

[Cykeisme]

I think Winston Blake has the subject covered down pat.

I was thinking about this in the Yoda vs SM Librarian thread, and i think the basic postulates i've got are:

- All TK is particularly draining/exhausting, compared to using the Force for strength, speed, leaping and precog reactions.
- Force Pushes are easier to do than any other kind of TK.
- More dexterous TK usage requires more time, effort, and concentration (i.e. distraction).
- Same goes for applying more stress (i.e. for more force or over a smaller area).
- Same goes for non-visible TK (must visualise target? cf Vader vs Ozzel).

- Fighting non-Force-users. In a many-threat fight, Jedi must maintain a precog lookout for blaster bolts (etc) and move to deflect them. All this consumes their concentration, and even a two-second gap to TK something could be life-endangering.
- Fighting Force-users. A Force user can block another's TK if they try. If they're unprepared (e.g. not maintaining a precog lookout), they can't counter in time. If they're distracted (e.g. wounded/suffering), they can't concentrate on blocking.

These hypotheses all make sense, and more importantly, as he demonstrated, they fit the observed evidence we see in the movies. Using TK isn't as simple as thinking about it; it requires the diversion of concentration and focus that may be needed elsewhere.

The only one that sticks out is Tyranus' use of TK on Obi-Wan while kicking Anakin during the lightsaber fight on the Invisible Hand. Perhaps it was a risky gambit, or perhaps Tyranus simply really is that skilled?

[Molyneux]

and an (M): Squidhead-Jedi Pushes C-3PO, apparently for fun, and completely ignoring the battle for at least 6 seconds. Seems to be clear stupidity.

You do NOT badmouth Kit Fisto!

Given his abilities shown elsewhere, he appears to have been unusually skilled at TK in combat situations - ref his feats in the aquatic campaign in the Clone Wars shorts. He also, judging from other combat situations he was in, appears to have been significantly less of...uh..an idiot than some other Jedi.

[Cos Dashit]

The only one that sticks out is Tyranus' use of TK on Obi-Wan while kicking Anakin during the lightsaber fight on the Invisible Hand. Perhaps it was a risky gambit, or perhaps Tyranus simply really is that skilled?

That bit of the fight never made sense to me, especially because later Anakin beat him alone with apparent ease.

[Cos Dashit]

and an (M): Squidhead-Jedi Pushes C-3PO, apparently for fun, and completely ignoring the battle for at least 6 seconds. Seems to be clear stupidity.

You do NOT badmouth Kit Fisto!

Given his abilities shown elsewhere, he appears to have been unusually skilled at TK in combat situations - ref his feats in the aquatic campaign in the Clone Wars shorts. He also, judging from other combat situations he was in, appears to have been significantly less of...uh..an idiot than some other Jedi.

I don't like Kit Fisto. The reason he was so skilled at TK probably is because he mastered a padawan form of lightsabre combat, and that is not all that impressive to me.

[Cykeisme]

The only one that sticks out is Tyranus' use of TK on Obi-Wan while kicking Anakin during the lightsaber fight on the Invisible Hand. Perhaps it was a risky gambit, or perhaps Tyranus simply really is that skilled?

That bit of the fight never made sense to me, especially because later Anakin beat him alone with apparent ease.

Anakin gave in to the Dark Side, and it gave him strength.

It's still odd that Tyranus was able to simultaneously apply a rather complex sequence of telekinetic attacks (to a reasonably powerful Jedi opponent, no less), while delivering a kick to a another lightsaber-wielding Jedi.

I don't like Kit Fisto. The reason he was so skilled at TK probably is because he mastered a padawan form of lightsabre combat, and that is not all that impressive to me.

Hmm.. Kit Fisto is supposed to be one of the best swordsmen in the Jedi Order, actually. The three Jedi that Mace took with him to the Chancellor's office are seasoned lightsaber wielders.

[Cos Dashit]

The only one that sticks out is Tyranus' use of TK on Obi-Wan while kicking Anakin during the lightsaber fight on the Invisible Hand. Perhaps it was a risky gambit, or perhaps Tyranus simply really is that skilled?

That bit of the fight never made sense to me, especially because later Anakin beat him alone with apparent ease.

Anakin gave in to the Dark Side, and it gave him strength.

How do you figure? I haven't read the novelization so correct me if I am wrong...

Didn't Dooku say something like, "You have hate and anger but you don't use them"? I think that qualifies as not using the Dark Side.

[Winston Blake]

The only one that sticks out is Tyranus' use of TK on Obi-Wan while kicking Anakin during the lightsaber fight on the Invisible Hand. Perhaps it was a risky gambit, or perhaps Tyranus simply really is that skilled?

That bit of the fight never made sense to me, especially because later Anakin beat him alone with apparent ease.

[snip]

It's still odd that Tyranus was able to simultaneously apply a rather complex sequence of telekinetic attacks (to a reasonably powerful Jedi opponent, no less), while delivering a kick to a another lightsaber-wielding Jedi.

This one's a bit hard and i don't really remember the fight sequence. I think that if Dooku got his choke in through a short gap in Obi-Wan's TK-guard, then causing him to struggle/suffer would make it impossible to regain the concentration needed to block the Choke. Achieving this makes Dooku otherwise vulnerable, but since Dooku managed to also kick Anakin away, he's safe for a while and can afford the complex TK.

It may have simply been Dooku managing to get a really lucky opening, with both momentarily vulnerable, so Dooku goes for the quick kick to lesser Jedi and risks a big move that might take the older one out of the fight completely. I think it can be explained as a brief chance that Dooku realised was a huge opportunity, and with no other threats for a few seconds he thought the effort of TK was worth it.

I don't like Kit Fisto. The reason he was so skilled at TK probably is because he mastered a padawan form of lightsabre combat, and that is not all that impressive to me.

Hmm.. Kit Fisto is supposed to be one of the best swordsmen in the Jedi Order, actually. The three Jedi that Mace took with him to the Chancellor's office are seasoned lightsaber wielders.

The only thing i can think of is that there was another Jedi just out of frame, covering Fisto's back such that he could afford a little trivial fun.

[Kurgan]

I don't know how informative this might be, but the Force mechanics in Star Wars: Jedi Academy were that only Force-capable creatures (or very heavy ones) could resist a Force push or pull. Weight allowed passive resistance, but Force users had to actively use a push to oppose; however, depending on the reflexes of the target, there was a delay between application of the power and the response.

That was very useful if you had two levels of Force Grip...grab someone and toss 'em off a ledge, and even if they countered, they were already falling.

JA (speaking of MP here) had all sorts of weird things going for it in this regard. Absorb totally counters it when toggled on (if the level is high enough), yet its goofed up by the "auto block" passive power of Pull (counters Push with an auto block, and vice versa Push blocking Pull). Due to an exploit in the game you can push somebody to get their auto block animation up and then hit them with a saber throw for a free hit while they're doing it (since their saber is lowered to do the block animation). Likewise you can get a jumper to "halt" for a split second and fall down with a Push/Pull while they block, and momentarily halt a speeder...

And if a person is moving without protection they get knocked down, or bounced off a wall with a high level Push/Pull!

Unless we look at Clone Wars (where all the Jedi are gods, until they face General Grievous, who is a god of gods), Kit Fisto is far from impressive. Okay, so he survives 2 seconds longer than the other two chump Jedi that Mace brings with him to "arrest" Palpatine. But really. He pushes over Threepio, slowly hacks a couple of blaster bolts and gets his "shit cut off" as one site put it. Whoop dee doo...

I guess the only Jedi that are worth crap in battle are Mace Windu, Yoda, Anakin, Obi-Wan, Qui Gon and Luke. Everybody else just sucks (though that kid who looks like Lucas's son could have been somebody someday had he gotten all his training perhaps!).

As for Obi-Wan and the Acklay, recall he's still in the arena and there's other people who could threaten him, but you're right, early on he had little excuse. Why even bother getting your chains unhooked, just brain squash all the animals before they get close. It's self defense, right? Oh well.

[Jaepheth]

I've always wondered why in a duel one force user didn't just crush the innards of the other force user's lightsaber. If manipulating non-living things is indeed easier, then this should be a viable tactic, no?

[Duckie]

I've always wondered why in a duel one force user didn't just crush the innards of the other force user's lightsaber. If manipulating non-living things is indeed easier, then this should be a viable tactic, no?

The Jedi probably extends his Anti-TKness over whatever important things he's holding as a precaution against that

[Kurgan]

Even though it's just a game mechanic, the old JK series standby "he was out of mana" is a neat way of explaining many of the contradictions.

Of course, in the movies we don't get to see the mana gauges of each of the participants and their various recharge rates, so we can only guess at the particular circumstances. A few notes in ROTS novelisation almost sound like some nod to this system though.

[Cos Dashit]

I've always wondered why in a duel one force user didn't just crush the innards of the other force user's lightsaber.

A funny scene just flashed through my head:

:Anakin comes home to Padme after a long day at work, and finds her in bed with another man:
Anakin - "It's okay pal, let's just sit and talk, I'm a Jedi ya know."
:They sit down at a table, enjoying a cup of coffee, until SQUISH:

If manipulating non-living things is indeed easier, then this should be a viable tactic, no?

Depends on what you consider living, our organs are organic and they are what makes us alive.

If the Jedi/Sith is halfway decent, they could block this sort of thing with ease. Another thing to remember is that if they took a second to concentrate on the whole organ-exploding thing, their enemy would just swipe at them with their lightsabre and the duel would be over.

[Cykeisme]

This one's a bit hard and i don't really remember the fight sequence. I think that if Dooku got his choke in through a short gap in Obi-Wan's TK-guard, then causing him to struggle/suffer would make it impossible to regain the concentration needed to block the Choke. Achieving this makes Dooku otherwise vulnerable, but since Dooku managed to also kick Anakin away, he's safe for a while and can afford the complex TK.

It may have simply been Dooku managing to get a really lucky opening, with both momentarily vulnerable, so Dooku goes for the quick kick to lesser Jedi and risks a big move that might take the older one out of the fight completely. I think it can be explained as a brief chance that Dooku realised was a huge opportunity, and with no other threats for a few seconds he thought the effort of TK was worth it.

I guess that's the only plausible explanation.. it was a minor opening, exploiting it was a gambit, and Dooku decided to take the chance. On Sidious' orders, he couldn't miss out on an opportunity like that, since he was told specifically to separate the two Jedi in order to set up Skywalker for a situation that would lure him further to the Dark Side.

Didn't Dooku say something like, "You have hate and anger but you don't use them"? I think that qualifies as not using the Dark Side.

That, sir, is the point! Watch the scene: Dooku is merely toying with the younger Jedi at first, but after goading the Skywalker with that line, that is when he gives in and starts using his anger and hate, and it's at that precise point that he starts owning Dooku. Another step on the path of the Chosen One's spiral into the abyss.

Another thing to remember is that if they took a second to concentrate on the whole organ-exploding thing, their enemy would just swipe at them with their lightsabre and the duel would be over.

Good point raised on the (non-)viability of TK attacks in a lightsaber duel. It takes a certain degree of concentration to perform, but lightsabers are so damn deadly that a lapse in precognitive attention on the weapons could leave you in pieces before you pull off the TK.
In addition, it also seems to exhaust the user, which would also later make them more vulnerable to lightsaber attack. The most viable use of TK in a close-quarters lightsaber tangle seems to be broad, flat "Force walls" first mentioned in the AotC novelization; apparently Force walls are imprecise and passive enough that it doesn't don't require much focus to put one up, but from the novel's description, the feat is still exhausts a Force user's vitality. In fact, it's was described as one of the factors leading to Anakin's defeat at Dooku's hands.

[Cos Dashit]

Didn't Dooku say something like, "You have hate and anger but you don't use them"? I think that qualifies as not using the Dark Side.

That, sir, is the point! Watch the scene: Dooku is merely toying with the younger Jedi at first, but after goading the Skywalker with that line, that is when he gives in and starts using his anger and hate, and it's at that precise point that he starts owning Dooku. Another step on the path of the Chosen One's spiral into the abyss.

I just watched that scene, and I conceed my point. As a matter of fact, I would like to add to yours.

For the first half of the fight, Anakin was calm, and his face was empty of emotion. Then he said, "My powers have doubled since the last time we met Count." To which Dooku responds, "Good, twice the pride, double the fall." Anakin gets kind of grumpy then. And when Dooku pins Obi-Wan under the platform, Anakin's face gets contorted and he starts using all of these baseball-like swings with his lightsabre. But when he cuts off Dooku's hands, he regains his calm and holds his enemy mobile. He pulled in the reins; this fight shows how he could be a gray Jedi. But then, because of Palpatine's prompting, he does the whole 'a head for an arm' trick. Closer to the Dark Side goes he.

[Kurgan]

Maybe I need to watch the scene again, but wasn't their dialouge right at the beginning of the fight, not "halfway through"? ("my powers have doubled") If so, then Anakin would have been grumpy all the way through the fight, getting really angry when Dooku taunts him with "but you don't use them."

Why is it that these "good Jedi" win fights when they get angry, presumably because the Dark Side is stronger (and anger leads to the Dark Side) but these Sith, who are presumably using the Dark Side the whole time, can't use the same tactic to win? Or is their fatal flaw that Dun möch actually makes your opponent stronger, and then scares you and makes you weaker? Heh...

[Eframepilot]

Maybe I need to watch the scene again, but wasn't their dialouge right at the beginning of the fight, not "halfway through"? ("my powers have doubled") If so, then Anakin would have been grumpy all the way through the fight, getting really angry when Dooku taunts him with "but you don't use them."

Anakin had the hate and anger the entire fight (and the emotions intensified when Obi-Wan got taken out) but he didn't actually start using them until Dooku's taunt. Before then, Anakin was trying to suppress his emotions like a good little Jedi should. In the novelization, this is even more clear; Sidious specifically tells Anakin to use his negative emotions and the narrator defines that moment as the death of Count Dooku.

Why is it that these "good Jedi" win fights when they get angry, presumably because the Dark Side is stronger (and anger leads to the Dark Side) but these Sith, who are presumably using the Dark Side the whole time, can't use the same tactic to win? Or is their fatal flaw that Dun möch actually makes your opponent stronger, and then scares you and makes you weaker? Heh...

Since the Sith are using the dark side the whole time, they are already at their maximum power, whereas Anakin and Luke weren't and thus got quick and easy boosts that let them beat Dooku and Vader. This only seems to work for Skywalkers, unfortunately; despite Obi-Wan's rage at Qui-Gon's death, his borderline dark side boost wasn't enough to beat Darth Maul, and Yoda couldn't beat Darth Sidious despite probably feeling his fair share of hate and anger himself.

One could theorize that it takes a degree of training to channel the dark side efficiently, so that only naturals like the Skywalkers can instantly get huge boosts in battle. Yoda might be able to surpass Sidious if he turned to the dark side as implied in Dark Rendezvous, but it would take considerable training to change his light side habits.

[Kurgan]

Okay thanks for that. Edit: nevermind I'm too tired to write a coherent thought just yet...