Palpatine: Genius or Madman?

[Duckie]

If the Clone Army was outnumbered a million or a thousand or even just twenty times, I believe Sidious would have just had a plan for CIS Victory- such as just taking the helm as Darth Sidious, CIS President, and conquering the Republic. It would have been more plausable (and Sith masterminds love plausable) to just have the CIS win if they outnumbered the Republic so badly, rather than this Chess Game nonsense. He probably had one anyhow, come to think, had the Clone Army turned out to suck or have a spot of bad luck or something.

I mean, this is a man who is so good at planning he manages to create a Sith Lord apprentice, gain office in the Senate, and create the stirrings of the Clone Wars even though his original plan really did fail. (Check out Mr. Wong's Episode 1 Impressions for the insanity that is Palpantine's Episode 1 plan).

[18-Till-I-Die]

While we praise the intellect of Palps, lets also recall this is the guy whose 'big plan' for the Rebels was "I'll use myself as bait!"

So yes, it is plausible that he was THAT stupid.

Not that this chess game shit is true, just reminding you who we're talking about.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

It doesn't get any better in the Bug War (current end of the NJO), where a Killik strike force of forty thousand is supposed to be some uber force of doom. Apparently, fifteen vessels the size of an Executor, a single captured and damaged Mon Mothma Star Destroyer, and 40,000 troops can plunge the entire galaxy into eternal warfare .

They gave FIFTEEN vessels the size of an Executor.

That will be enough to make real pain on that pitiful NR Navy. For those guys, this is pretty big...

How will the Mon Mothma (1600m class, no?) make a contribution here with 15 Executors?

He view is actually very consistent. She has stated that she would like to retcon the droid numbers down to something more "reasonable"

Maybe Saxton should have scribbled another one liner one of his ICS/ITW series - busting that hope.

While we praise the intellect of Palps, lets also recall this is the guy whose 'big plan' for the Rebels was "I'll use myself as bait!"

If you want your enemy to give it his all, you sometimes have to give your all as well.

Clone efficiency was far superior to that of their average droid enemy, however; the average clone trooper managed 20 kills during his operational life.

Only 20 now?

[Duckie]

While we praise the intellect of Palps, lets also recall this is the guy whose 'big plan' for the Rebels was "I'll use myself as bait!"

So yes, it is plausible that he was THAT stupid.

Not that this chess game shit is true, just reminding you who we're talking about.

That was OT Palps, who seems a bit more insane and darkside degenerate. It is continually mentioned, note, that the Dark Side of the Force does tend to mess with your mind.

PT Palps seems to be quite cunning and a good mastermind- PT Palpantine scripted the Clone Wars, and then managed to install himself as near-dictator of the Galaxy through his own manufactured war. And he'd been planning it for years, considering that Sifo-Dyas/imposter Sifo-Dyas preordered his Limited Edition 1st Edition Clone Army 10 years before AotC.

[NecronLord]

PT Palps seems to be quite cunning and a good mastermind- PT Palpantine scripted the Clone Wars, and then managed to install himself as near-dictator of the Galaxy through his own manufactured war. And he'd been planning it for years, considering that Sifo-Dyas/imposter Sifo-Dyas preordered his Limited Edition 1st Edition Clone Army 10 years before AotC.

He's not that smart or cunning, he just has overwhelming force power (I can sit in a room with a jedi master and be unrecognised), gall (becoming supreme chancellor) and luck (they were very, very close to finding him out in LoE). If you gave someone like Cardinal Richelieu or Niccolo Machiavelli equal power, and dropped them in twenty years ahead of RotS, with the mission of stopping Palpatine, he'd be so utterly WTFPWNED it'd almost be not funny.

Almost.

[VT-16]

Actually, I think some of the essays on Domus Publica (and his article on SW Wiki) do show the complexities of his machinations, even forging alliances with the Kuatis and other manufacturers while he was still Senator, for instance.

[Vympel]

If you gave someone like Cardinal Richelieu or Niccolo Machiavelli equal power, and dropped them in twenty years ahead of RotS, with the mission of stopping Palpatine, he'd be so utterly WTFPWNED it'd almost be not funny.

Almost.

It should be noted that although Machiavelli wrote a book about how to be a really devious bastard of a leader, he never made much of himself. He was all talk, no action.

[The Original Nex]

Indeed Palpatine is supposed to be a genious. I would suggest the Domus Publica on this matter over Wiki anyday.

Something Wicked This Way Comes:
The Life and Times of Palpatine the Undying

[Tiriol]

If you gave someone like Cardinal Richelieu or Niccolo Machiavelli equal power, and dropped them in twenty years ahead of RotS, with the mission of stopping Palpatine, he'd be so utterly WTFPWNED it'd almost be not funny.

Almost.

It should be noted that although Machiavelli wrote a book about how to be a really devious bastard of a leader, he never made much of himself. He was all talk, no action.

True; he wrote The Prince after observing leaders and their actions, he didn't do those things himself. He was an exiled bureaucrat and politician who never achieved much power, although his intelligence was great. It appears that what he lacked was charisma. He did have some moderate success in some of his endeavours, but nothing even remotely comparable to Palpatine by any stretch of imagination.

Richelieu, I don't know.

[NecronLord]

politician who never achieved much power, although his intelligence was great. [...] nothing even remotely comparable to Palpatine by any stretch of imagination.

Where do you think Palpy'd be if he wasn't a super-duper-uber sith?

At best, he would have had a moderately distinguished career as senator of Naboo.

[NecronLord]

Actually, I think some of the essays on Domus Publica (and his article on SW Wiki) do show the complexities of his machinations, even forging alliances with the Kuatis and other manufacturers while he was still Senator, for instance.

George Walker Bush is widely held to have semicovert links to major capitalist groups, but he doesn't seem to exactly be a genius, does he? Pretty much every major aspect of Palpatine's rise to power is seemingly predicated on his unmatched skill with the force, in the form of disguise and foresight ability.

He was able to keep his stooges in line as Darth Sidious because they were terrified of him, and use them to get to the rank of supreme chancellor. Even assuming he got to be Naboo Senator purely on his political merit, there's no indication he ever would have risen higher if he wasn't a Sith Lord.

[Adrian Laguna]

It should be noted that although Machiavelli wrote a book about how to be a really devious bastard of a leader, he never made much of himself. He was all talk, no action.

I've read The Prince, it details how to be a leader once you're already in a position of great power. There is nothing in there detailing how to obtain power, only how to secure and expand existing power. Machiavelli probably recognized that he didn't have the charisma, guts, and interpersonal skills required to rise to power. This is why he wrote the book and sent it to a friend of his (lost the book, so I don't know the name), with the idea that his friend, an Italian Prince, would use the advice to begin the reunification of Italy. Unfortunately his friend was also lacking in guts.

[NecronLord]

Machiavelli, it seems, was rather more interested in being a theorist who was useful to whichever leader was around, than being a leader himself, and having all the rival city states wanting to kill him horribly, such as by starvation, as was in vogue back then in Italy.

[Tiriol]

politician who never achieved much power, although his intelligence was great. [...] nothing even remotely comparable to Palpatine by any stretch of imagination.

Where do you think Palpy'd be if he wasn't a super-duper-uber sith?

At best, he would have had a moderately distinguished career as senator of Naboo.

Being a Sith certainly helped, but not even Force powers can give someone such command of political, bureaucratic and military fields as Palpatine had. His writings on the nature of power were read throughout the galaxy's universities and he was known to make friends in right places. It is certain that he would most likely ever had achieved the position of the Supreme Chancellor - not at least in the same manner as shown in the movies and EU - true; saying otherwise would be highly deceptive. However, as Publius noted in the Domus Publica, Palpatine was intelligent and had a certain charisma. As much as it is false to say that Palpatine's achievements did not need his position as the reigning Sith Master, it is also false to say that he was not a political and bureaucratic genius, or nearly one.

Palpatine, however, had clear signs of foolhard bravery: he used himself as a bait in both RotS (although he was in very secure position then, since both sides were practically his lackies, but he did still make a dangerous move - General Grievous's ship might have been destroyed while Palpatine was still on it etc.) and in RotJ (which showed how arrogant he had become). However, WotC's Dark Side Sourcebook clearly states that Palpatine had become so arrogant, self-possessed and, some might say, insane that he refused to listen to any words of caution: he did not heed the warnings of his military advisors, the Prophets of the Dark Side, or of Lord Vader himself. He had a strong Hitleric element in him then.

But, still, I do agree that Palpatine's career was grealty influenced and helped by his studies of the Force; however, the Force cannot make someone a good politician: Darth Malak was noted to be a brute interested in the destruction of the entire Republic and its infrastructure causing much devastation and stopping his own forces from taking over those facilities, and he is not a sole represantive of the Force-users blind to the subleties of politics, diplomacy and bureaucracy.

And a distinguished career as a Senator is nothing to scoff at, in any case: only the Supreme Chancellor wields more power in politics.

[000]

Palpatine had the incumbent senator of the Chommel sector assassinated to make way for him, so his appointment wasn't on purely political merits.

He did write several books on politics while senator though, such as Paths to Power, which were held in high esteem by his colleagues.

[Tiriol]

Machiavelli, it seems, was rather more interested in being a theorist who was useful to whichever leader was around, than being a leader himself, and having all the rival city states wanting to kill him horribly, such as by starvation, as was in vogue back then in Italy.

Machiavelli was intelligent, I'd say: he saw that his own, personal charisma was not enough to become a ruler of Italy (he urged the prince of Florence to unite Italy, since he wanted to see the end of foreign interference in Italian politics and life), so he took an advisory role. He was, indeed, a realist as you said, and somehow avoided execution despite the fact that he had served under goverments that were hostile to the Medicis and was exiled because of that servitude and loyalty - he was even a high-ranking official. And it is also possible that he just wanted to use his time in some productive manner and perhaps to preserve his name through his writings. And he has succeeded, in any case: historians remember the names of the different Medici rulers; Machiavelli and machiavellian politics have become a catchphrase recognized by the western world.

[NecronLord]

Being a Sith certainly helped, but not even Force powers can give someone such command of political, bureaucratic

Nope, but surrounding yourself with a talented staff who are too terrified to act in any way not in your interest, does. And political abilities

and military fields as Palpatine had.

Objection. Pre-wank Palpatine has demonstrated all the military leadership abilities of a turtle. And not a teenage mutant ninja one, either.

His writings on the nature of power were read throughout the galaxy's universities

After he achieved power. Mien Kamph is utter idiocy, and barely literate, but it was widely read.

and he was known to make friends in right places.

Forsight plus mind trick goes a long way.

It is certain that he would most likely ever had achieved the position of the Supreme Chancellor - not at least in the same manner as shown in the movies and EU - true; saying otherwise would be highly deceptive. However, as Publius noted in the Domus Publica, Palpatine was intelligent and had a certain charisma.

Which can certainly be attributed at least in part to his force ability. Even latent force ability is known to manifest as enhanced charisma, IIRC.

As much as it is false to say that Palpatine's achievements did not need his position as the reigning Sith Master, it is also false to say that he was not a political and bureaucratic genius, or nearly one.

Or simply very determined, and posessed of superhuman foresight, which would go a long way as a cause of that.

Palpatine, however, had clear signs of foolhard bravery: he used himself as a bait in both RotS (although he was in very secure position then, since both sides were practically his lackies, but he did still make a dangerous move - General Grievous's ship might have been destroyed while Palpatine was still on it etc.)

And that's even assuming Dooku didn't decide to vent the atmosphere of the room he was in or some such.

and in RotJ (which showed how arrogant he had become). However, WotC's Dark Side Sourcebook clearly states that Palpatine had become so arrogant, self-possessed and, some might say, insane that he refused to listen to any words of caution: he did not heed the warnings of his military advisors, the Prophets of the Dark Side, or of Lord Vader himself. He had a strong Hitleric element in him then.

He always was a Hitler clone, but with force power, instead of Hitler's immense personal magnetism and passion.

But, still, I do agree that Palpatine's career was grealty influenced and helped by his studies of the Force; however, the Force cannot make someone a good politician:

Force foresight can. It would let him get in first in any debate, and see who would win any vote. That's a massive advantage in politics.

Darth Malak was noted to be a brute interested in the destruction of the entire Republic and its infrastructure causing much devastation and stopping his own forces from taking over those facilities, and he is not a sole represantive of the Force-users blind to the subleties of politics, diplomacy and bureaucracy.

Indeed not, but Palpatine seems to have focussed his efforts on using foresight (to the point of believing it infallible) and 'shrouding.' Malak, to my understanding, was just a brute.

And a distinguished career as a Senator is nothing to scoff at, in any case: only the Supreme Chancellor wields more power in politics.

I wouldn't say so. There are certainly likely to be many steps between Supreme Chancellor and ordinary senator. The Republic presumably has an entire cabinet, for example.

[NecronLord]

He did write several books on politics while senator though, such as Paths to Power, which were held in high esteem by his colleagues.

Don't forget, that at least post-RotS, most of his 'collegues' are total boot lickers

[Tiriol]

NecronLord: Force foresight isn't the most reliable way of getting information; thus Palpatine acquired the Prophets of the Dark Side, since he could only see so much different paths of future ("always in motion the future is"). And his political writings garnered him much respect and recognision even before he became a Supreme Chancellor.

Objection. Pre-wank Palpatine has demonstrated all the military leadership abilities of a turtle. And not a teenage mutant ninja one, either.

Palpatine was not a tactician, true, NecronLord, I should have clarified: according to NEGtC, Palpatine discovered how the military, bureaucratic, legislative and political bodies worked and concluded that they were not so different from each other. He had administrative abilities, not tactical or strategical. My mistake.

Nope, but surrounding yourself with a talented staff who are too terrified to act in any way not in your interest, does.

It is a grave mistake to surround oneself with yes-men - it only lulls one into a false sense of superiority and lays down the seeds of arrogance and catastrophic mistakes. Apparently Palpatine recognised this (Dark Lord notes how he allowed Tarkin to speak plainly about Vader's
effects on the military leaders), but he grew arrogant in other ways.

I wouldn't say so. There are certainly likely to be many steps between Supreme Chancellor and ordinary senator. The Republic presumably has an entire cabinet, for example.

True, and conceeded: at least the Speaker of the Senate (Mas Amedda) comes to my mind.

I'll try to sum up my point: Palpatine was intelligent and charismatic on his own accord; however, without his Force powers he could not have succeeded even remotely in what he did succeed and he would have been caught if he had still had the same (lack of) ethics as in the canon. However, the same can be said about anyone: without his personal magnetism Hitler couldn't have used the German masses in the same way as he did and use the fiscal fiascos to his advantage; without his tactical skills Alexander the Great would have been just another minor king. To remove the decisive quality (in this case, his Force powers) from Palpatine is akin to doing so to any other leader of notable personality. I will not say that he would have become the absolute ruler without his Force powers - it is simply untrue. But I will say that he was intelligent and charismatic and had his own merits of leadership.

[NecronLord]

NecronLord: Force foresight isn't the most reliable way of getting information; thus Palpatine acquired the Prophets of the Dark Side, since he could only see so much different paths of future ("always in motion the future is").

He seems to have relied on it extensively, though.

And his political writings garnered him much respect and recognision even before he became a Supreme Chancellor.

This I did not know.

It is a grave mistake to surround oneself with yes-men - it only lulls one into a false sense of superiority and lays down the seeds of arrogance and catastrophic mistakes. Apparently Palpatine recognised this (Dark Lord notes how he allowed Tarkin to speak plainly about Vader's
effects on the military leaders), but he grew arrogant in other ways.

Who said yes men? His staff, even Pestage, appear to have been quite competant around the RotS era, and I doubt they'd actually 'yes man' him too much - no point, given that he'd know when they were lying (another advantage I'd be stunned if he didn't use in his career).

I'll try to sum up my point: Palpatine was intelligent and charismatic on his own accord; however, without his Force powers he could not have succeeded even remotely in what he did succeed and he would have been caught if he had still had the same (lack of) ethics as in the canon. However, the same can be said about anyone: without his personal magnetism Hitler couldn't have used the German masses in the same way as he did and use the fiscal fiascos to his advantage; without his tactical skills Alexander the Great would have been just another minor king. To remove the decisive quality (in this case, his Force powers) from Palpatine is akin to doing so to any other leader of notable personality.

Barring of course, that force power isn't really directly related to personality in the way the other attributes are.

I will not say that he would have become the absolute ruler without his Force powers - it is simply untrue. But I will say that he was intelligent and charismatic and had his own merits of leadership.

He was certainly competant enough (at first, if not by RotJ), and 'lucky,' but not that much of a master-manipulator, as much as he was able to keep his seperate identies secret because he was so much more powerful than the jedi of the time.

[The Original Nex]

I wonder if this Palpatine tangent warrants a split?

[Cos Dashit]

While we praise the intellect of Palps, lets also recall this is the guy whose 'big plan' for the Rebels was "I'll use myself as bait!"

So yes, it is plausible that he was THAT stupid.

Not that this chess game shit is true, just reminding you who we're talking about.

That was OT Palps, who seems a bit more insane and darkside degenerate. It is continually mentioned, note, that the Dark Side of the Force does tend to mess with your mind.

If I was Palpatine, and I had just finished winning the galaxy by playing on two fronts and mixing shit up all the time, the least I would feel is extreme confidence. I would have felt myself invincible.

If the PT was a chess game, then the OT was like a game of checkers with Hellen Keller.

[Tychu]

If the Clone Army was outnumbered a million or a thousand or even just twenty times, I believe Sidious would have just had a plan for CIS Victory- such as just taking the helm as Darth Sidious, CIS President, and conquering the Republic. It would have been more plausable (and Sith masterminds love plausable) to just have the CIS win if they outnumbered the Republic so badly, rather than this Chess Game nonsense. He probably had one anyhow, come to think, had the Clone Army turned out to suck or have a spot of bad luck or something.

I mean, this is a man who is so good at planning he manages to create a Sith Lord apprentice, gain office in the Senate, and create the stirrings of the Clone Wars even though his original plan really did fail. (Check out Mr. Wong's Episode 1 Impressions for the insanity that is Palpantine's Episode 1 plan).

one thing that totally destroys the purpose of this thread

The Clone Wars was a farse, it was a facade to destroy the Jedi
When you are the leader of both sides you can do what ever you want. The reason why Palpatine drew out the war was to kill more and more Jedi. If he had the CIS win quickly then less Jedi die or are even involved in the War. The longer he draws out the war the people of the Republic will either say "this war sucks" or "hmmm im comftorble in this war era" now those people could care less if then its well, you know the Jedi were helping the CIS so now they are the bad guys and the CIS are now dead

[FTeik]

If the Clone Army was outnumbered a million or a thousand or even just twenty times, I believe Sidious would have just had a plan for CIS Victory- such as just taking the helm as Darth Sidious, CIS President, and conquering the Republic. It would have been more plausable (and Sith masterminds love plausable) to just have the CIS win if they outnumbered the Republic so badly, rather than this Chess Game nonsense. He probably had one anyhow, come to think, had the Clone Army turned out to suck or have a spot of bad luck or something.

I mean, this is a man who is so good at planning he manages to create a Sith Lord apprentice, gain office in the Senate, and create the stirrings of the Clone Wars even though his original plan really did fail. (Check out Mr. Wong's Episode 1 Impressions for the insanity that is Palpantine's Episode 1 plan).

one thing that totally destroys the purpose of this thread

The Clone Wars was a farse, it was a facade to destroy the Jedi
When you are the leader of both sides you can do what ever you want. The reason why Palpatine drew out the war was to kill more and more Jedi. If he had the CIS win quickly then less Jedi die or are even involved in the War. The longer he draws out the war the people of the Republic will either say "this war sucks" or "hmmm im comftorble in this war era" now those people could care less if then its well, you know the Jedi were helping the CIS so now they are the bad guys and the CIS are now dead

How does the fact, that the clone-war was a farce destroy the purpose of this thread?

The "farce" only works as long as people fail to see, that it is a farce and for that the war had to be as credible as possible.

[FOG3]

as much as he was able to keep his seperate identies secret because he was so much more powerful than the jedi of the time.

From the PDD, quoting LoE

pg.249: Despite his mastery of the Quey'tek technique for hiding oneself in the Force, they had located him!

Excuse me, but that makes it sound like this is the technique of some insignificant Force using group he's using. If it was just the technique itself was called that should it not be something more like:
"Despite his mastery of Quey'tek they had located him!"
OR
"Despite his mastery of the Sith technqiue of Quey'tek, for hiding oneself in the Force, they'd located him."

Quey'tek technique implies it is one of the techniques of a group known as Quey'tek. If this is this case it seems unlikely this is a feat of power by any means, as otherwise these Quey'tek should have a more significant presence.