Wolf 359 force sub

[PREDATOR490]

Replace the Borg Cube with a standard Corellian Corvette.

Does it do worse, the same, or better than the Cube?

In the straight tactical scenario yes, alot better.

In evaluation of goals and mission it would do alot worse. Borgs intent was to capture and assimilate not destroy since the Corvette dosent have enough troops to hold a planet and no support then all it can do is destroy.

Completely fails the mission objective of assimilating the Federation.
Additionally, if the ship was changed the entire situation with Q would have been entirely different, perhaps to the point that such a conflict would never have happened in the first place.

This is assuming the Corvette is running under the same goal as the Borg.
If its got a non borg crew with the same objective then they will fail, simply because they wouldnt be able to assimilate the Federation or Picard. Both of which were the whole point of the operation.

If it was a Star Wars crew then.... I suspect they would be too busy trying to figure what the hell magically put them into a galaxy where they havent got a clue what is going on.
End up with the Star Wars equivelent of Voyager in a corvette... would be interesting since obviously this ship is powerful enough to do significant damage on its own.

In the end though a corvette would ultimatly lose, no access to resources, no access to spare parts or supplies to repair damage and if they attack other races they are going to make themselves a bright target for every race in the galaxy because everyone will want to get there hands on that ship.

[Darth Wong]

Completely fails the mission objective of assimilating the Federation.

That's a pointless rebuttal since the Empire would not attempt to assimilate the Federation in that fashion anyway. The Cube's mission was to reach Earth, deploy its time-travel device, and then stop Cochrane's flight. If the corvette has the time-travel device, it could do this easily. But if we're going to take that aspect of the mission completely out, then we should be asking why the Empire would be doing this at all since they don't need to employ such convoluted methods to conquer Earth.

[PREDATOR490]

Completely fails the mission objective of assimilating the Federation.

That's a pointless rebuttal since the Empire would not attempt to assimilate the Federation in that fashion anyway. The Cube's mission was to reach Earth, deploy its time-travel device, and then stop Cochrane's flight. If the corvette has the time-travel device, it could do this easily. But if we're going to take that aspect of the mission completely out, then we should be asking why the Empire would be doing this at all since they don't need to employ such convoluted methods to conquer Earth.

Uh... I thought the point of this was Wolf 359 ? Thats Best of Both Worlds.

The Time travel was ST First Contact. That battle didnt actually occur at Wolf 359, by the time you see it in the movie they are already within sight range of Earth.

Additionally, it wasnt specifically said which side was piloting the Corvette. It could be imps or it could be rebels, hell it could even be Borg based on the topic start.

All it said was Sub Cube for Corvette, nothing about a change in crew or who the crew was affiliated with.

[Darth Wong]

Completely fails the mission objective of assimilating the Federation.

That's a pointless rebuttal since the Empire would not attempt to assimilate the Federation in that fashion anyway. The Cube's mission was to reach Earth, deploy its time-travel device, and then stop Cochrane's flight. If the corvette has the time-travel device, it could do this easily. But if we're going to take that aspect of the mission completely out, then we should be asking why the Empire would be doing this at all since they don't need to employ such convoluted methods to conquer Earth.

Uh... I thought the point of this was Wolf 359 ? Thats Best of Both Worlds.

Oops, you're right, I got the two incidents mixed up.

The Time travel was ST First Contact. That battle didnt actually occur at Wolf 359, by the time you see it in the movie they are already within sight range of Earth.

Well the point remains in any case; the Imps would not try and "assimilate" Earth; they would try to conquer it by threatening orbital bombardment. So pointing out that the Corvette can't assimilate Earth once it gets there is a pointless rebuttal.

Additionally, it wasnt specifically said which side was piloting the Corvette. It could be imps or it could be rebels, hell it could even be Borg based on the topic start.

All it said was Sub Cube for Corvette, nothing about a change in crew or who the crew was affiliated with.

Does it even matter what tactics they use? What creative tactics does the Corvette need to use? Just fly through the slow-ass defenders to reach Earth. If we assume that the mission objective is simply to reach Earth, without regard for what happens once you get there, the Corvette can accomplish the mission easily. If we assume that the mission objective is to assimilate Earth, the Empire doesn't do that so it doesn't make any sense. And if we assume that the mission objective is to destroy the Wolf 359 fleet, it's hard to say how well the Corvette would do since I don't recall much info about how combat-effective those things are. Even if their shields are immensely strong, I suppose someone might try a ramming attack.

[Anguirus]

The Corvette's not very big compared to the starships, so if Star Wars shields can't block Trek tractor beams, they can certainly alter its course. However, that doesn't stop the Corvette from shooting back, and the first scene of ANH shows us that the Wolf force can't get through those shields.

However, a Star Trek ship can make a MASSIVE boom by causing a catastrophic breach of their own containment. So if some of those ships are willing to commit suicide runs, or even just closing to point-blank range before getting shot, some damage could concievably be done that way.

[PREDATOR490]

I dont understand what scenario your trying to argue there.

If your arguing the Imps would bombard the planet if this was at the ST FC point then yeah your right.

However, this is at the point of Best of Both Worlds. The topic isnt very specific to the situation.

Sub a Cube for a corvette ?

So does that mean the Corvette has a borg Crew ?

Does that mean the Borg have suddenly become the Empire ?

Does this also mean that the incident with Q would have went a completely different way ?

Im working under the premise that its just the SHIP thats been changed not the crew, or situation.
The Borg dont destroy so if they have a ship that can only destroy then the mission would be a complete failure. The Borg dont do orbital bombardments since its a waste of efficency and the crew compliment of a corvette is insignificant next to a Cube.

A Cube can hold thousands of drones, up to 5 thousand according to some episodes.

A corvette would have no means for ship to surface landings = no transporters

If the corvette tries to land its going to have to drop the shields and then it becomes extremely vulnerable.
Then you have the problem of a crew of a corvette VS. the entire population of Earth.

Overall, Borg lose this one based on the assumption that ONLY the ship was changed.

IF the crew was changed then objectives would change but to be honest its impossible to speculate what those objectives would be. Inorder to change the ship and crew you have to change Borg to Empire or some SW race which inturn means the whole Q meeting would have been different.

If that goes differently then its likely that there might not even be a reason for the SW race to attack.

Overall the Topic isnt clear and is open to interpretation on how you define "sub X for Ship Y"

[Darth Wong]

However, this is at the point of Best of Both Worlds.

The mission in BOBW was to conquer Earth. Same as STFC, but without the time-travel bullshit.

Sub a Cube for a corvette ?

So does that mean the Corvette has a borg Crew ?

Does that mean the Borg have suddenly become the Empire ?

Does this mean you have a problem with taking a scenario at face value? The thread says "Wolf 359". So to win the scenario, all they've got to do is either destroy the fleet at Wolf 359 or bypass it, since those were the only Borg objectives at Wolf 359. It is not clear whether the Corvette could do the former, but it could definitely do the latter. Asking what will happen afterwards is beside the point.

[PREDATOR490]

So to win the scenario, all they've got to do is either destroy the fleet at Wolf 359 or bypass it, since those were the only Borg objectives at Wolf 359. It is not clear whether the Corvette could do the former, but it could definitely do the latter. Asking what will happen afterwards is beside the point.

The question at the start was "could the corvette do better, same or worse"

So taken at face value meaning all that matters is the effect the Corvette will have on the single battle.

39 vessels of various types from Excellsior to Firebrand to miranda to nebula were used.
What little was shown of the battle in DS9 ep 1 the Federation fleet attacked in a staggered piecemeal fashion, no coordinated assualt wall. Just a case of who gets in range first fires.

Hence, corvette does better in light of the better firepower and shields.
Overall, the Cube seemed to suffer no damage and its likely the Corvette wouldnt either so the only thing that might have actually been better about the engagement would be the time of the exchange.

If the corvette evades the fleet then, it hasnt really affected the Federation forces at all, just put off the engagement until the Federation catch up.

[SirNitram]

Given the Corvette can reach Earth in minutes from Wolf 359, 'catching up' isn't really an option that will stop cities being destroyed.

[brianeyci]

Me as Federation Commander, I would not have fought at Wolf 359. Why Wolf 359? Was it on the "warp highway" or something? Can't the Borg just go around the Wolf 359 force since they can outrun them?

So, I would have concentrated all forces in Earth orbit. Either Earth, or in Earth's solar system (they mentioned they had fixed defenses, so I would take advantage of those). Also I'd get every single photon torpedo on Earth (don't tell me they don't have them, they restock ships at spacedock) and launch them from ground-based weapons platforms protected by hastily constructed theatre shielding (we've seen pathetic versions before on an archeological outpost and deployed by Ent-D, but hook up the pathetic versions into the entire North American power grid and see what happens).

Also I believe transporters are in widespread use all over the Federation (Sisko mentions beaming in every day from SF Academy back home I think). There are probably thousands or millions of independent transporter units on Earth. The power use might preclude this, but I would have thousands or millions of goldshirts armed with phasers standing on transporter pads. They would be transported and kept in the transporter buffer. As soon as there was a shield breach, they would be attempted to materialized on the Borg cube.

Such a strategy could also possibly be used in this force-sub. It'd probably still fail, but it would have worked against the Borg (millions of goldshirts going hand to hand with Borg drones would have won by pure attrition, and they can shoot out the power nodes to cripple the Borg cube). Speed advantage doesn't matter if the enemy has to come to you.

Brian

[NecronLord]

They would be transported and kept in the transporter buffer. As soon as there was a shield breach, they would be attempted to materialized on the Borg cube.

What's the point? Their weapons quickly become useless.

[PREDATOR490]

^ That is questionable

The main reason they didnt want to engage above Earth would be to prevent Borg beaming their own dudes down.

A force sub might not work, a corvette may have the firepower and speed but it dosent have the staying power, its an escort vessel, not designed for planatary invasion.

Even if they blow lots of cities up, its going to take time and in the case of "catching up" time is against the side with the fewer numbers. Additionally, if the Feds knew the Corvetted dosent have transporters they may very well have clustered closer to Earth.

The other reason i suspect they chose Wolf 359 was because of the previous display of Borg Power.

The Borg Cube SCOOPED an entire CITY on another planet in the first part of that episode. There was a crater that must have been miles across by some deep.
That alone would have decimated the Federation if it was Starfleet command that got targetted. Something which would be a prime target especially with Picard giving them detailed info on Federation defences.

As for planatary defences.... LOL Jupiters defense consisted of 3 small pods killed in 3 shots from the Cube.
Didnt even have to blink so I dont think a Corvette has to worry.

The only problem I seed with a corvette is its rearward blind spot and the fact its rather lightly armed. A single ram straight to the front of the ship would likely kill the Corvette.
Not sure though.

[brianeyci]

They would be transported and kept in the transporter buffer. As soon as there was a shield breach, they would be attempted to materialized on the Borg cube.

What's the point? Their weapons quickly become useless.

Attrition. They could go hand to hand with combat knives (though I don't know whether in the TNG period they were issued knives, I know VOY kit had them). They can fight Borg hand to hand and win, the security officer in ST:FC had a scar on his face I assume he got from rumbling with a Borg drone. It took the Borg awhile to win in ST:FC, I assume there was a lot of hand to hand going on. Also with an OOM more guys you could beam on the cube, and they could shoot out those power nodes crippling the Borg ship from inside.

As for Borg scooping up cities and beaming their own guys down, if they do well less guys on the cube and they're not shooting at your ships. Sensors could detect where Borg were after the cube was defeated.

SFC didn't know in TNG how badly the Borg could annihilate their fleet, but if there did and there was enough stomach for casualties, my strategy would have worked assuming the armada could lower the cube's shields for a few seconds. It might have cost a few cities and there'd be thousands of Borg on the streets of Paris, but hey I don't see any other suggestion .

Brian

[PREDATOR490]

The Federation underestimated the force the Borg possessed but the factor of Picard's knowledge AND the fact that the Borg had engaged and sucked the database of the Enterprise D in the previous contact no doubt helped them massively.

There is only one issue that hasnt really been covered.

That Borg Ship met them in the Delta Quadrent, a few months later a cube arrives in Federation space.

Now give the fact that Warp speed isnt THAT fast then they could have done that. Addtionally, Borg dont seem to have transwarp at this time, if they did they could have taken the route straight to Earth like Voyager did.

Ultimate question is.... how did that cube get there so fast ?
Data said that the cube had the same appearance as the one they met before - though I suppose the rational assumption is that it wasnt the same cube and the cube they met was the REAL reason Q did what he did.

He knew that the Borg were only a few months away from contact.

[SirNitram]

Borg Transwarp is faster than Federation Warp. That's the answer. Transwarp Conduits must be built, so they couldn't just appear at Earth anyways. Christ, this is stuff made blatantly obvious in the series. How'd you miss it?

[SirNitram]

Even if they blow lots of cities up, its going to take time and in the case of "catching up" time is against the side with the fewer numbers. Additionally, if the Feds knew the Corvetted dosent have transporters they may very well have clustered closer to Earth.

I see. So the Federation High Command will just sit with their thumbs up their asses while turbolaser strikes immolate entire cities, targetting Command and Control as well as power grids, crippling Earth?

[brianeyci]

Borg possessed but the factor of Picard's knowledge

Bah, I never bought that. We have the crazy Admiral from Drumhead and Picard's own ambigious words. Federation security measures are to change command codes once an officer's captured, this is automatic... we know from TNG The Gambit. And Picard probably wouldn't memorize prefix codes of 39 other ships.

More likely Picard really didn't do anything than say, "shoot at the nacelles or warp cores" or tell them standard shield frequencies. The Borg could still have done it without Picard. From Voyager even when shield frequencies are rotated Borg can punch through an Intrepid in a few seconds. Picard just made it easier.

Brian

[PREDATOR490]

Borg Transwarp is faster than Federation Warp. That's the answer. Transwarp Conduits must be built, so they couldn't just appear at Earth anyways. Christ, this is stuff made blatantly obvious in the series. How'd you miss it?

Yet in Descent part I & II
Those Borg werent using anything remotely near transwarp. Infact one might conclude that those routes were faster.
Within the space of a few minutes the Enterprise ended up in the Delta Quadrant.
Addtionally Transwarp conduits have to be built ?
So when and how did a Borg ship manage to just randomly build that certain route ?
There must be some way for the Borg to place the containment rings which keep the conduit open which suggests a Borg ship was within inches of entering Federation space.

Addtionally the Borg had 6 such transwarp hubs, we only see one in Voyager so somehow, somewhere there are 5 more snaking through space.

[brianeyci]

Here's the obvious answer... the Borg didn't want to get to Earth that fast. Didn't you see how the Borg cube toyed around with the Enterprise-D in Q Who and even BOBW (the laser cutter beam, come on they could have kept cutting into the ship and they didn't fire more than a token amount of weapons)? It didn't make sense in TNG, but with the Borg Queen retconned into BOBW I can easily see her saying, "let's fly in slow so we can blow up shit." Also the Queen was searching for an equal, Picard.

Brian

[SirNitram]

Borg Transwarp is faster than Federation Warp. That's the answer. Transwarp Conduits must be built, so they couldn't just appear at Earth anyways. Christ, this is stuff made blatantly obvious in the series. How'd you miss it?

Yet in Descent part I & II
Those Borg werent using anything remotely near transwarp. Infact one might conclude that those routes were faster.
Within the space of a few minutes the Enterprise ended up in the Delta Quadrant.

That would be a Conduit, as the Enterprise could enter it. Borg Transwarp without conduits is just their own superior engines.

Addtionally Transwarp conduits have to be built ?
So when and how did a Borg ship manage to just randomly build that certain route ?

A Cube previously travelled on conventional Transwarp and built the Conduit.

There must be some way for the Borg to place the containment rings which keep the conduit open which suggests a Borg ship was within inches of entering Federation space.

Yes, the incident with the colonies scooped up suggests that the Borg have been in the A-Q before.

Addtionally the Borg had 6 such transwarp hubs, we only see one in Voyager so somehow, somewhere there are 5 more snaking through space.

Yep. But the route to Earth was destroyed. The route to Earth was likely laid in FC, which would explain why the Cube remained at such a pathetic pace when we know they're faster.

[PREDATOR490]

In the former situation with Q who the Borg were equally as confused as the Ent D.
The Borg seemed to just sit there while Ent D people walk around the ship then all of a sudden you get the drone in Engineering who sucks the database.
THEN you end up with the dice and slice with the cutting beam.

I suppose I can follow on the idea of Borg going slow, its all they seemed to do really, took them ages to actually react to something. Even when they have the tactical and obvious technological advantage they waste it on dramatic flair and seem to think that a single repetative dialogue is gonna make people suddenly see the light.

The Queen... pfft, she was a really stupid thing to add to the collective since all you end up seeing is her die twice and every character who was a drone seems to be her "favourite"

Overall, the intelligence of the Borg dosent seem great and yet for some reason in hindsight one might say is smart. Afterall some of the greatest technological advances are those designed with a clear motive and in war.

Perhaps the Borg merely want to push other races into building more tech so the Borg can leech of it. Although that went to hell when it suddenly became Borg want to assimilate people rather than the technology.

[SirNitram]

In the former situation with Q who the Borg were equally as confused as the Ent D.
The Borg seemed to just sit there while Ent D people walk around the ship then all of a sudden you get the drone in Engineering who sucks the database.
THEN you end up with the dice and slice with the cutting beam.

So? The Borg collected data from the Federation ship, enabling them to instantly adapt their weapons to kick Fed ass. How does this invalidate what I said in any way?

I suppose I can follow on the idea of Borg going slow, its all they seemed to do really, took them ages to actually react to something. Even when they have the tactical and obvious technological advantage they waste it on dramatic flair and seem to think that a single repetative dialogue is gonna make people suddenly see the light.

They're androids with SMP overhead problems. They're dumb as toast and have latency issues.

The Queen... pfft, she was a really stupid thing to add to the collective since all you end up seeing is her die twice and every character who was a drone seems to be her "favourite"

Overall, the intelligence of the Borg dosent seem great and yet for some reason in hindsight one might say is smart. Afterall some of the greatest technological advances are those designed with a clear motive and in war.

Perhaps the Borg merely want to push other races into building more tech so the Borg can leech of it. Although that went to hell when it suddenly became Borg want to assimilate people rather than the technology.

Picard's lovey-dovey shit clearly caused a system's malfunction.

[PREDATOR490]

And yet one cant help but notice this is the same race that managed to overcome 20 years worth of technology advancement in the space of 1 scan.

VOY "Endgame"

3 Cubes engage Voyager with the full armour on and barely hurt her, a scan of 5 -10 seconds and all of a sudden the Borg are punching through.
This indicates some rather selective adaptability on their side, not counting the fact that later in the episode a Sphere is described by the queen as
"assimilating your virus but they have also assimilated your armour technology"
Followed by a sphere almost killing Voyager.
Clearly indicating the Borg ships have extreme speed at adaptability on their own yet they couldnt do the same with others.

Additionally, I never understood how that scene worked. The Sphere was behind Voyager and opened a hatch. Snap to the Fed fleet waiting on the other side.
Snap back to the portal and the Sphere comes out first with Voyager behind. In light of the fact that transwarp conduits are narrow and the Sphere is right behind Voyager I dont understand how they switched positions.

[SirNitram]

And yet one cant help but notice this is the same race that managed to overcome 20 years worth of technology advancement in the space of 1 scan.

Really? You must have watched a different episode than me.

VOY "Endgame"

3 Cubes engage Voyager with the full armour on and barely hurt her, a scan of 5 -10 seconds and all of a sudden the Borg are punching through.
This indicates some rather selective adaptability on their side, not counting the fact that later in the episode a Sphere is described by the queen as

So the fact the Borg have to whittle through ablative armour is somehow seen as a strength of theirs? It's ablative armour. We use it today, only we usually ditch it as heavy plating works better.

"assimilating your virus but they have also assimilated your armour technology"
Followed by a sphere almost killing Voyager.

Shock, amazement, ablative armour ablated!

Clearly indicating the Borg ships have extreme speed at adaptability on their own yet they couldnt do the same with others.

No, it proves they did as normal, and ablative armour did it's job.

Additionally, I never understood how that scene worked. The Sphere was behind Voyager and opened a hatch. Snap to the Fed fleet waiting on the other side.
Snap back to the portal and the Sphere comes out first with Voyager behind. In light of the fact that transwarp conduits are narrow and the Sphere is right behind Voyager I dont understand how they switched positions.

Stupid fuckers at Paramount.

[PREDATOR490]

Admiral Janeway clearly said that the Borg would adapt to their torpedoes long before they destroyed the Hub, she estimated something like 3 of the portals before they would adapt.

This means that either she is overestimating, unlikely since shes a Borg Expert supposedly, or the Transphasic Torpedoes are vulnerable.

In the latter case this would mean the Federation built an anti borg weapon that somehow didnt get adapted too by the Borg in her timeline.
Addtionally, the Borg queen locked onto Janeways shuttle and signal within a short space of time.

This also indicates some element of adaptability. Considering the ablative armour was going down 2% at first from full volleys then suddenly went down in the dual numbers of % then the Borg clearly found a weakness in the armour in the 10 second scan.