Wolf 359 force sub

[SirNitram]

Admiral Janeway clearly said that the Borg would adapt to their torpedoes long before they destroyed the Hub, she estimated something like 3 of the portals before they would adapt.

This means that either she is overestimating, unlikely since shes a Borg Expert supposedly, or the Transphasic Torpedoes are vulnerable.

She's not an expert on anything but fucking up. She's part of the crew that thinks you can form a hole in a mathematically defined radius, and that any sort of portal with a singularity.

In the latter case this would mean the Federation built an anti borg weapon that somehow didnt get adapted too by the Borg in her timeline.
Addtionally, the Borg queen locked onto Janeways shuttle and signal within a short space of time.

The Transphasic Torpedos scream 'anti-Borg weapon', after all, these uber-torps didn't blow away the Romulans that Admiral Janeway was avoiding.

This also indicates some element of adaptability. Considering the ablative armour was going down 2% at first from full volleys then suddenly went down in the dual numbers of % then the Borg clearly found a weakness in the armour in the 10 second scan.

Or they just ramped up their firing from their pathetic 'one weapon at a time' nonsense... Ablative armour ablates. IF you applied sense and logic to your posts, you'd have realized things like this. Have you conceded the Transwarp point yet?

[PREDATOR490]

I trust you mean Klingons since there were no Romulans and in that case she was outgunned by ships from her own timeline.
2 Klingon Neg var Vs. A shuttle and the shuttle survived quite well despite the other ships being many times the mass and firepower.

As for not using the torps on them, it was assumed that the shuttle didnt have such weapons, it only had the knowledge of how to convert Voyagers existing torps.

Voyager use a complement of 6 Torps. More than that shuttle could hold since its only big enough for maybe 3 people.
No torpedo launchers were seen.

[SirNitram]

I trust you mean Klingons since there were no Romulans and in that case she was outgunned by ships from her own timeline.
2 Klingon Neg var Vs. A shuttle and the shuttle survived quite well despite the other ships being many times the mass and firepower.

Did you watch the episode? Harry Kim was backing her up in a capital ship. Why didn't he use these Transphasics if they aren't an optimized anti-Borg weapon?

As for not using the torps on them, it was assumed that the shuttle didnt have such weapons, it only had the knowledge of how to convert Voyagers existing torps.

Not by any member of the VS community since 'Endgame', because I happen to remember the shitstorm that rose up following the episode.

Voyager use a complement of 6 Torps. More than that shuttle could hold since its only big enough for maybe 3 people.
No torpedo launchers were seen.

I'm talking about Kim's vessel, dingleberry.

[brianeyci]

If you search for NecronLord and transphasic torpedoes, I think he's posted evidence before that the transphasic torpedoes were nothing special. They impact the cube, then a few seconds later detonate within the Borg ship. There is no vaporization, and pieces of the cube fly out. So they're nothing special other than armor piercers, and probably just cook off the cube's warp core.

Borg hulls being shittier than Federation hulls (they use that ductile material that's repaired quickly a la Q Who) it's not surprising that armor piercers would be a cube's weakness. Their answer is the tactical cube, strapping huge armor plates, but not all their ships have huge armor plates on them so there's either a disadvantage to adding that much mass or the Borg are just stupid. I favor the former, if only because a Paramount executive's commented before on Endgame armor being absurd because Trek vessels are not supposed to have that much mass on them (I remember someone mentioning that, don't have a link sorry).

Brian

[PREDATOR490]

Why would a federation ship be expected to use them ?

Harry Kim was violating orders as it was, Federation tactics are always a case of dont kill. So its unlikely that he would fire them because they would blow the ship sky high resulting in a massive diplomatic incident with the Klingon Empire.

The Klingon ships chased the shuttle through the vortex immediatly after the shuttle entered so Kim didnt have much time to use them, if he did the resulting explosion could kill the Admiral or damage the temporal rift.

Besides why are you trying to say Torps work against anyone else ?
The point was that Janeway said the torpedoes would be adapted to by the Borg within 3 to 4 destructions of the hub gates.

So they must be able to adapt within 3 to 4 shots of a weapon, a weapon which in this case is designed primarily against Borg so one would suspect that such a weapon is designed to be even harder for the borg to counter.
In this case that means the Federations best weapon can be countered in a pretty good amount of shots. Thus indicating the Borg do have some capability at adapting quickly even to technology that is advanced of their own.

One other example of Borg assimilation is the Episode "One"
In that episode a handful of 7 of 9s nanoprobes assimilated the Doctors 29th century holo emitter , a padd and a console turning it into a 29th cenutry drone that had its own built in transporter.

[SirNitram]

Why would a federation ship be expected to use them ?

Because, if your theory held a single droplet of water, they'd be effective.

Harry Kim was violating orders as it was, Federation tactics are always a case of dont kill. So its unlikely that he would fire them because they would blow the ship sky high resulting in a massive diplomatic incident with the Klingon Empire.

Right. Like all those jaunts across the Neutral Zone, which always waited for Klingon permission.

Whoops.

The Klingon ships chased the shuttle through the vortex immediatly after the shuttle entered so Kim didnt have much time to use them, if he did the resulting explosion could kill the Admiral or damage the temporal rift.

Bullshit. Utter, unsupported bullshit.

Besides why are you trying to say Torps work against anyone else ?
The point was that Janeway said the torpedoes would be adapted to by the Borg within 3 to 4 destructions of the hub gates.

And Janeway is a moron. Parallax. Scorpion. Year Of Hell.

So they must be able to adapt within 3 to 4 shots of a weapon, a weapon which in this case is designed primarily against Borg so one would suspect that such a weapon is designed to be even harder for the borg to counter.

Or Admiral Janeway is still a fucking complete moron.

In this case that means the Federations best weapon can be countered in a pretty good amount of shots. Thus indicating the Borg do have some capability at adapting quickly even to technology that is advanced of their own.

Or Janeway is wrong.

One other example of Borg assimilation is the Episode "One"
In that episode a handful of 7 of 9s nanoprobes assimilated the Doctors 29th century holo emitter , a padd and a console turning it into a 29th cenutry drone that had its own built in transporter.

This does not indicate anything like what you want it to. You are relying on infallibility of Janeway, a person so moronic she stranded her crew in the Delta Quadrant because she didn't know what a fuse was.

[brianeyci]

Define what it means to adapt.

When Borg adapt their shields they match their frequencies with the weapons of other races. What the Borg probably did was eventually work out an algorithm to match the rotating frequency of the transphasic torpedo (assuming transphasic torpedoes like photons have shields).

What is your definiton of adapt?

Brian

[PREDATOR490]

Well if Janeway is wrong then its the fault of the script makers however Borg have shown the ability to match weaponary thats in advance/different of their own previous to this.

Nano probes assimilate something completely on their own just on the programming thats in them, they assimilated something which is 500+ years more advanced then worked up into creating a full sized drone with more perks than has ever been seen on a single drone.

This would indicate the Borg have the ability to adapt i.e. React to the environment or obstacle within short order. In this case a 29th century piece of equipment is assimilated within a few minutes.
So if nanoprobes alone can assimilate and work up to create their own drone this more than successfully indicates that the Borg can plausibly adapt to the Torpedoes quite quickly.

Since they adapt to Phaser fire within fast times and can modify their own shields to deflect even the most concentrated burst from the Ent Ds deflector dish.
The Borg can adapt to anything they at least have an understanding of. Since they gain their understanding through assimilation and extrapolation as can be seen with their ability to counter the battle of Wolf 359, as you said it may not have been down to Picard giving them specifics which in that case means the Borg were working completely off the knowledge they raped off the Ent D during Q who.

Even the modified weaponary that focussed on the upper EM band was quickly countered, the plan itself was in Picards head but if you say Picard cant have given tactical information then it should be clear they had to personnally modify their own shields to withstand the Deflector Dish blast from the Ent D.
All going from ship specs.

Basic point being that a 20 year advantage in technology still comes down to being based on the principles of the past, thus any future tech the Federation made would follow similar characteristics, characteristics which allow them to adapt within a short space of time.
However, the example that nano probes themselves can do the assimilation of technology completely unaided just by being introduced to other tech which even 500+ years more advanced supports the idea the Borg can adapt just as easily to things that are somewhat alien. The only reason they couldnt touch Species 8472 came to the fact that Species 8472 was biologically imune to assimilation and Borg ships rarely survived encounters to be able to relay information back.

As long as at least one ship survives the collective can adapt depending on how much effort they put in. Janeway specifically said that the collective would put the full power into disecting their technology.

This gives merit to the Admiral's advice that the borg would counter the Torps quickly.

The same example can be derived from personnel shielding, fire a round the drone goes down, fire again it goes down, fire again and its adapted.
Something must clearly be allowing the Borg to discern the frequency of the Phaser being used.
It cant be coming from the drone since hes dead and in most cases some battles take place off ship which means its not the actual ship doing the detection of phaser frequencies.

Based on what has been seen what one borg feels the others know and vice versa thus if a ship gets hit by a single phaser every ship in the Borg fleet feels and detects that blast. So in the split second of destruction the Borg have already gotten a partial idea of how the weapon works.

Translate this to 3 - 4 attempts at a gate hubb and you have them adapted to torpedoes.

Wether or not Janeway is stupid and your opinion isnt really relevant. She is stated as an expert on the Borg. She has fought the Borg and won something which not even Picard has done.

Picard could only do it with a fully armed state of the art ship, Janeway manages to survive against the Borg alone. Though testimony from the Borg Queen suggests that the Queen actually LET Voyager live.

[SirNitram]

Well if Janeway is wrong then its the fault of the script makers however Borg have shown the ability to match weaponary thats in advance/different of their own previous to this.

I gotta see this load of lies you're gonna spew.

Nano probes assimilate something completely on their own just on the programming thats in them, they assimilated something which is 500+ years more advanced then worked up into creating a full sized drone with more perks than has ever been seen on a single drone.

They assimilated a hologram projector, which unless you're braindead, is not a weapon, nor going to be built like one.

This would indicate the Borg have the ability to adapt i.e. React to the environment or obstacle within short order. In this case a 29th century piece of equipment is assimilated within a few minutes.

A smaller version of a 24th century hologram emittor, that's all. I love this no-limits fallacy you throw, though.

So if nanoprobes alone can assimilate and work up to create their own drone this more than successfully indicates that the Borg can plausibly adapt to the Torpedoes quite quickly.

Absolute lie. Incorporating a peice of civilian technology probes have access to and adapting to weapons fire that destroys Cubes in one hit are completely different.

Since they adapt to Phaser fire within fast times and can modify their own shields to deflect even the most concentrated burst from the Ent Ds deflector dish.

....By matching frequencies. Nothing more.

The Borg can adapt to anything they at least have an understanding of. Since they gain their understanding through assimilation and extrapolation as can be seen with their ability to counter the battle of Wolf 359, as you said it may not have been down to Picard giving them specifics which in that case means the Borg were working completely off the knowledge they raped off the Ent D during Q who.

Total lie. Scorpion proves it. Descent proves it. Shall I continue, you lying twat?

Even the modified weaponary that focussed on the upper EM band was quickly countered, the plan itself was in Picards head but if you say Picard cant have given tactical information then it should be clear they had to personnally modify their own shields to withstand the Deflector Dish blast from the Ent D.
All going from ship specs.

They utilized the frequency dependence of the Federation against them. Have you read the main site?

Basic point being that a 20 year advantage in technology still comes down to being based on the principles of the past, thus any future tech the Federation made would follow similar characteristics, characteristics which allow them to adapt within a short space of time.
However, the example that nano probes themselves can do the assimilation of technology completely unaided just by being introduced to other tech which even 500+ years more advanced supports the idea the Borg can adapt just as easily to things that are somewhat alien. The only reason they couldnt touch Species 8472 came to the fact that Species 8472 was biologically imune to assimilation and Borg ships rarely survived encounters to be able to relay information back.

They can assimilate civilian tech, so they can assimilate anything? Utter lie.

8472 wasn't special: It had white blood cells or the equivalent. That's all the technobabble description of their 'immunity' was, just the normal description of a body's immunodefense system. Further, if being destroyed quickly means you can't adapt, whoops, they can't adapt to Transphasics, as they fly through shields for one or two hit kills.

As long as at least one ship survives the collective can adapt depending on how much effort they put in. Janeway specifically said that the collective would put the full power into disecting their technology.

See above comments proving Janeway's utter stupidity.

This gives merit to the Admiral's advice that the borg would counter the Torps quickly.

No, it does not. I have proven this clearly.

The same example can be derived from personnel shielding, fire a round the drone goes down, fire again it goes down, fire again and its adapted.

Ooo, they can adapt to a frequency based weapon by using frequency based shielding, so impressive. Not.

Something must clearly be allowing the Borg to discern the frequency of the Phaser being used.

WOW! What got you that, retard?

It cant be coming from the drone since hes dead and in most cases some battles take place off ship which means its not the actual ship doing the detection of phaser frequencies.

The drone is 'dead', therefore all equipment is immediately dead with no transmission time? What lunacy.

Based on what has been seen what one borg feels the others know and vice versa thus if a ship gets hit by a single phaser every ship in the Borg fleet feels and detects that blast. So in the split second of destruction the Borg have already gotten a partial idea of how the weapon works.

No, it's collected some data. Having some data does not mean immediate understanding, you retard.

Translate this to 3 - 4 attempts at a gate hubb and you have them adapted to torpedoes.

Only in your delusions. In logical discussion, it means nothing of the sort.

Wether or not Janeway is stupid and your opinion isnt really relevant. She is stated as an expert on the Borg. She has fought the Borg and won something which not even Picard has done.

Janeway being an ignorant moron is absolutely objective to anyone who watched the show.

And Picard repeatedly won. Did you watch BoBW, Descent, FC?

Picard could only do it with a fully armed state of the art ship, Janeway manages to survive against the Borg alone. Though testimony from the Borg Queen suggests that the Queen actually LET Voyager live.

So Janeway's just a pawn, not a genius.

Stop lying now.

[Batman]

What is this, Walper's long lost twin brother?
The Borg never adapt to ANYTHING other then Trek's frequency shenanigans. The 29th century holo emitter didn't require any adaption whatsoever, merely the ability to STUDY the bloody thing.
500+ years more advanced than the Feds, dunderhead. NOT the Borg. For all we know to them the technology is an old hat.
Not that the ability to reverse-engineer a bloody holo emitter has ANYTHING to do with their ability (or lack thereof) to adapt to a torpedo type the nature of which we know jack shit about.
Hell, as FC shows the Borg can't even always adapt to technology they DO know. Starfleet was still clobbering the Cube despite the Borg having been attacked by phasers and phototps many times.

[NecronLord]

Starfleet was still clobbering the Cube despite the Borg having been attacked by phasers and phototps many times.

Really? The surface looked largely intact, and the cube was destroying starships at a rate of one every few seconds. They were losing quite badly until Picard showed up.

[Batman]

Starfleet was still clobbering the Cube despite the Borg having been attacked by phasers and phototps many times.

Really? The surface looked largely intact, and the cube was destroying starships at a rate of one every few seconds. They were losing quite badly until Picard showed up.

What we see of the surface looks largely intact. Do we see all sides of the cube? Even if we do, so what? Data states 'Heavy damage to the outer hull' or some such, and the fact that Starfleet still did any damage at all shows that the Space Zombies didn't adapt, at least not completely.

[NecronLord]

Data states 'Heavy damage to the outer hull' or some such, and the fact that Starfleet still did any damage at all shows that the Space Zombies didn't adapt, at least not completely.

Data is an idiot. But anyway, he probably means in-context 'Heavy damage, given what we're hitting it with.' It means that while they're not adapting as perfectly as people claim, their defences are more than sufficient to bullrush to Earth with a single ship. That's awfully impressive, and the cube was most certainly not being clobbered. It was crunching quite steadily through the federation fleet while their fire mostly pitter-pattered off it like rain off a roof.

[brianeyci]

I already made the point earlier that Data could have been wrong about the massive damage to the cube and that the cube didn't look like there was anything but superficial damage to it.

The Borg totally outclass the Federation, end of story.

There is another possibility, that the Federaton defense is extremely porus. The Breen got all the way to SFC. So maybe it's not hundred of ships = one Borg cube, but maybe 20 ships. Still totally outclasses the Federation.

Brian

[PREDATOR490]

I already made the point earlier that Data could have been wrong about the massive damage to the cube and that the cube didn't look like there was anything but superficial damage to it.

The Borg totally outclass the Federation, end of story.

There is another possibility, that the Federaton defense is extremely porus. The Breen got all the way to SFC. So maybe it's not hundred of ships = one Borg cube, but maybe 20 ships. Still totally outclasses the Federation.

Brian

The battle took place well away from Earth, the Enterprise was supposed to be on the Neutral Zone, and ran all the way to Earth, so what you see is really whats left of the fight from wherever they started.

Meaning the Federation was literally following the cube all the way, in this course of though that means the Borg had literally been adapting and slowly going through at a potentially steady pace. If thats true then the overall fleet that engaged may have been larger and what you see is 20 ships of whats left.

If you look at the fleet that is assembled within short notice in endgame, 20 ships are immediatly at the exit before the Sphere and Voyager have even exited. Upon exiting the Borg Sphere took several hits from the Federation fleet and didnt even flinch.

One torp from Voyager and it explodes, meaning the sphere had already anticipated being shot at on exit by at least SOME fed ships and adapted, the hull power on a sphere is strong enough to withstand fire from those ships OR that sphere was using the same ablative armour generator that the queen said it had assimilated.
THe only thing that could get through would be the transphasic torpedo which once again highlights the fuck up on paramounts side.

Voyager suddenly comes up behind the Sphere even though the Sphere was behind, killing Voyager AND had been specifically ORDERED to kill Voyager at all costs.

The attack from the Breen does highlight a lack of defense but this may be due to the fact that Breen came in from a vector that was not expected to be attacked from and that the defense fleet was guarding or elsewhere in the Dominion war.

Also the Dominion attack was mainly an assualt on SFC not really a full bombardment which means it could easily have been a hit and fade attack. Thus federation forces would have been caught off guard especially since all fromer reference to Breen indicated they were isolated and still unknown to the Federation.

[Darth Wong]

This is fucking retarded; we know the Borg can superficially patch up holes in their hull, but that doesn't mean the damage is erased; they have to take that mass from somewhere else. It's entirely possible for the cube to still have its outward cube shape with no obvious craters, but still have suffered heavy damage to its outer areas.

If the cube had not suffered prior heavy damage, why was it so easily destroyed by a brief concentrated barrage?

[apocolypse]

Starfleet was still clobbering the Cube despite the Borg having been attacked by phasers and phototps many times.

Really? The surface looked largely intact, and the cube was destroying starships at a rate of one every few seconds. They were losing quite badly until Picard showed up.

What we see of the surface looks largely intact. Do we see all sides of the cube? Even if we do, so what? Data states 'Heavy damage to the outer hull' or some such, and the fact that Starfleet still did any damage at all shows that the Space Zombies didn't adapt, at least not completely.

Not sure if it's helpful or not, but Data also stated during that scene that he was detecting power fluctuations throughout the cube. Obviously the Federation was doing some damage to the cube prior to Picard's arrival.

[PREDATOR490]

If the cube had not suffered prior heavy damage, why was it so easily destroyed by a brief concentrated barrage?

Well it may be that whatever hunch that Picard got that made him concentrate his fire on one point was somehow connected to the repair systems or otherwise a vulnerable area.

Based on the Federation ships attacks as the Enterprise entered it was the same as it was in Best of Both Worlds. They just swarm the target and attack all over the place, no direct and concentrated firepower on one point.

Perhaps indicating that if enough weapons are targeted on a singular point then they can punch through the hull of a Cube, then again it may just be that the Cube had suffered so much damage that it was starting to get worn down under the fire and thus the sustained barrage pressed it further.

[harbringer]

S8472 the removal of:

requires modified nanoprobes

Borg have massive numbers of them but didn't "adapt" them for the task.


Either the borg are even more stupid than most believe or have less ability to modify and adapt to new situations then some believe.

[Darth Wong]

If the cube had not suffered prior heavy damage, why was it so easily destroyed by a brief concentrated barrage?

Well it may be that whatever hunch that Picard got that made him concentrate his fire on one point was somehow connected to the repair systems or otherwise a vulnerable area.

Which would mean that Borg cubes are actually quite easy to destroy, since an undamaged Borg cube can be destroyed with literally a few seconds of concentrated fire from a dozen or so ships. It is much more reasonable to conclude, in light of previous Federation impotence against cubes, that this is not the case and that the cube was, in fact, quite heavily damaged already.

[SirNitram]

Was there not some comment about it's internal power fluctuating? Call me crazy, but starships internal power shouldn't be flickering on and off.

[Bounty]

Was there not some comment about it's internal power fluctuating? Call me crazy, but starships internal power shouldn't be flickering on and off.

There was - Data reported severe damage to the outer hull and "fluctuations in their power grid" right before Picard starts hearing voices again.

[Batman]

Well, this is Trek so it may just be Dataspeak for them using AC, not DC

[Isolder74]

Well, this is Trek so it may just be Dataspeak for them using AC, not DC

or electricity instead of plasma conduits. A power grid can be either AC or DC and both can fluxuate due to lost nodes. Afteer all power lost on a parallel branch has to go somewhere.

[The Silence and I]

Starfleet was still clobbering the Cube despite the Borg having been attacked by phasers and phototps many times.

Really? The surface looked largely intact, and the cube was destroying starships at a rate of one every few seconds. They were losing quite badly until Picard showed up.

What we see of the surface looks largely intact. Do we see all sides of the cube? Even if we do, so what? Data states 'Heavy damage to the outer hull' or some such, and the fact that Starfleet still did any damage at all shows that the Space Zombies didn't adapt, at least not completely.

It is entirely possible the damage is covered up with hasty repairs (we know they are capable of this) but has not been entirely nullified. Recall that SF sensors often can scan large volumes as if the material was not there to block them, so Data could be able to scan vast cavities and chaotic, hastily patched areas inside the hull we can't see.

As for taking the damage in the first place, the fleet that hit the Borg was presumably prepared and had set all weapons to random frequencies and such. I imagine the fleet's alpha strike may have done more damage to the cube than the rest of the battle prior Picard did. We know the cube's defenses will be most vulnerable at the beginning of the battle, and will harden up after that. This also gives the cube time to patch up its outer hull for the camera when we see it over earth. It also might explain why it didn't play with the ships, and then bolt away to earth faster than they can follow--it may have been too damaged to try.

I do think the cube would have won though, even damaged (crippled?) it was swatting starships left and right. The firepower advantage is just so huge--in the first few seconds of engagement starships--fresh, fully prepared starships--take massive damage. I think they had the numbers to return the favor in those few seconds, but it wasn't enough, and that is why at Earth we see a cube that is starting to recover, surrounded by a (smaller) fleet of damaged ships that are slowly swatted away.