Did Vader ever consider cloning himself a new body?

b00tleg · Post by **b00tleg** » 2006-03-20 04:24pm

That would have potentially restored him to full Force ability with restored limbs, however it would require that all the midichlorians survive the process. I believe it would have worked b/c in the EU Papaltine never seemed to suffer any loss of ability in the Force for all the times he cloned himself. I'm just wondering if Vader ever considered it, or was perhaps was denied b/c it would have made him that much stronger then the emperor...

Darksider · Post by **Darksider** » 2006-03-20 04:27pm

No, because IIRC he didn't know how to transfer his essence into a new body.

There's no evidence Palpatine shared that knowledge with Vader

Eframepilot · Post by **Eframepilot** » 2006-03-20 06:38pm

Darksider wrote:No, because IIRC he didn't know how to transfer his essence into a new body.

There's no evidence Palpatine shared that knowledge with Vader

And yet, Palpatine put non-Force adept Bevel Lemelisk in a new body multiple times. Why bother going after Luke when he could have just restored Vader? Stupid EU and its inconsistencies.

Post by **Gandalf** » 2006-03-20 06:40pm

Eframepilot wrote:And yet, Palpatine put non-Force adept Bevel Lemelisk in a new body multiple times. Why bother going after Luke when he could have just restored Vader? Stupid EU and its inconsistencies.

Wasn't Vader still a fairly decent Sith underling when in the suit?

Powerful enough to deal with other people, but not powerful enough to try and fight Sidious. Or something like that.

Noble Ire · Post by **Noble Ire** » 2006-03-20 06:40pm

Eframepilot wrote:
Darksider wrote:No, because IIRC he didn't know how to transfer his essence into a new body.

There's no evidence Palpatine shared that knowledge with Vader
And yet, Palpatine put non-Force adept Bevel Lemelisk in a new body multiple times. Why bother going after Luke when he could have just restored Vader? Stupid EU and its inconsistencies.

...or, he wanted Vader to stay as he was by that point. Palpatine probably suspected that his pupil would eventually rebel against him, and giving him back most of his lost power would simply serve as a catalyst to his rebellion, one that Palpatine might not (and probably wouldn't) survive. Better to corrupt Luke; while more difficult, he'd probably get more use out of him.

Cos Dashit · Post by **Cos Dashit** » 2006-03-20 06:47pm

Gandalf wrote:
Eframepilot wrote:And yet, Palpatine put non-Force adept Bevel Lemelisk in a new body multiple times. Why bother going after Luke when he could have just restored Vader? Stupid EU and its inconsistencies.
Wasn't Vader still a fairly decent Sith underling when in the suit?

Powerful enough to deal with other people, but not powerful enough to try and fight Sidious. Or something like that.

That is exactly what he was. Emperor Palpatine knew that he was planning and has planned overthrowing him. He also knew that in his current state he was not powerful to do it.

Eframepilot · Post by **Eframepilot** » 2006-03-20 10:31pm

Really, I don't get the "Palpatine deliberately kept Vader weak" argument. Palpatine took Anakin as an apprentice knowing that he would surpass Palpatine ("Lord Vader will be stronger than either of us!") and must have also known that Anakin would turn against him, but Palpatine couldn't have anticipated Vader's injuries. Also, Palpatine was eager to trade in Vader for a newer model (Luke) who would again be a threat to himself. So either Palpatine was confident that he could handle or dissuade a full-strength Vader or Luke and had no excuse for not restoring Vader's body, or he was just crazy.

Noble Ire · Post by **Noble Ire** » 2006-03-20 10:46pm

Eframepilot wrote:Really, I don't get the "Palpatine deliberately kept Vader weak" argument. Palpatine took Anakin as an apprentice knowing that he would surpass Palpatine ("Lord Vader will be stronger than either of us!") and must have also known that Anakin would turn against him, but Palpatine couldn't have anticipated Vader's injuries. Also, Palpatine was eager to trade in Vader for a newer model (Luke) who would again be a threat to himself. So either Palpatine was confident that he could handle or dissuade a full-strength Vader or Luke and had no excuse for not restoring Vader's body, or he was just crazy.

Ding Ding Ding.

Really, it seems to me that after Palpatine took full and unabashed control ofthe galaxy, and perhaps began dabbling more in ancient Sith artifacts, he quickly began to lose his mind. Clearly, during his ploting phase, right up to ROTS, he simply had the thousand year Sith goal of keeping their traditions alive and eventually reaping revenge upon the Jedi Order (as evidenced by his plain admition that he believed Anakin would one day surpass him). However, with those goals largely accomplished, his own dark energy began to consume his mind. Soon, rather than the simple perpetuation of the Sith, he wanted to live forever, and thus saw his apprentices as a needed threat, not as a means of perpetuation.

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2006-03-20 10:52pm

Noble Ire wrote:
Eframepilot wrote:Really, I don't get the "Palpatine deliberately kept Vader weak" argument. Palpatine took Anakin as an apprentice knowing that he would surpass Palpatine ("Lord Vader will be stronger than either of us!") and must have also known that Anakin would turn against him, but Palpatine couldn't have anticipated Vader's injuries. Also, Palpatine was eager to trade in Vader for a newer model (Luke) who would again be a threat to himself. So either Palpatine was confident that he could handle or dissuade a full-strength Vader or Luke and had no excuse for not restoring Vader's body, or he was just crazy.
Ding Ding Ding.

Really, it seems to me that after Palpatine took full and unabashed control ofthe galaxy, and perhaps began dabbling more in ancient Sith artifacts, he quickly began to lose his mind. Clearly, during his ploting phase, right up to ROTS, he simply had the thousand year Sith goal of keeping their traditions alive and eventually reaping revenge upon the Jedi Order (as evidenced by his plain admition that he believed Anakin would one day surpass him). However, with those goals largely accomplished, his own dark energy began to consume his mind. Soon, rather than the simple perpetuation of the Sith, he wanted to live forever, and thus saw his apprentices as a needed threat, not as a means of perpetuation.

Strange that Dark Lord essentially makes Vader out to be full strength when he realizes it's not physical that's holding him back but mental. At the end Vader admits he has no weakness and he could one day overcome Sidious by learning the Dark Side, and then ripping the old man in half.

Palpatine instills into Vader the thought to kill him and the notion that he will if a new more powerful being comes along that he will destroy him to insure a continuation of the Sith Order.

So where this thought that Palpatine grows nuts?

The only time he's off his rocker is in Dark Empire, when it's apprent it's pretty much him gone way off the deep end, and ignoring some of the points that elevated him into power.

Noble Ire · Post by **Noble Ire** » 2006-03-20 10:57pm

So where this thought that Palpatine grows nuts?

The only time he's off his rocker is in Dark Empire, when it's apprent it's pretty much him gone way off the deep end, and ignoring some of the points that elevated him into power.

True. I suppose was a bit hasty in saying that his new powers just made him insane.

Nevertheless, they did certainly change his goals, and his overall methology. In ROTS, Palpatine really didn't seem that obsessed with immortality, as long as the Sith survived and the Jedi didn't (as pointed out before). However, by ROTJ, and his first death, he seems to have already been planning the whole 'reborn' thing for some time. That might explain why he was so willing to use himself as bait (although that kind of behavior does have past presedence).

Eframepilot · Post by **Eframepilot** » 2006-03-20 11:10pm

Ghost Rider wrote: Strange that Dark Lord essentially makes Vader out to be full strength when he realizes it's not physical that's holding him back but mental. At the end Vader admits he has no weakness and he could one day overcome Sidious by learning the Dark Side, and then ripping the old man in half.

Palpatine instills into Vader the thought to kill him and the notion that he will if a new more powerful being comes along that he will destroy him to insure a continuation of the Sith Order.

But if Vader really was at full strength, then Palpatine had no legitimate reason not to give Vader a new, intact cloned body, just as he did for Lemelisk. Well, I guess he could just have not told Vader about the process so that Vader would continue to suffer, but having a fully intact apprentice ought to take precedence over pointless spite. Stupid KJA and his plothole-inducing Darksaber.

Solauren · Post by **Solauren** » 2006-03-21 12:09am

Here's my view on it.

In the suit, Vader is vulnerable to Palpatine's Force Lightning. In order to overthrow him, or beat him in a fight, Vader would have to become powerful enough to override that. Vader had not yet reached his power limit. He couldn't heal his injuries with the Dark Side of the force long term. A few minutes at most.

[Which to me, indicated not healing, but rather the Force taking over the functions. Sure, things felt like they we working right, but that's really debatable.]

Palpatine probably kept him in the burned/diced up body because Vader couldn't free himself from it. Sure, in ROTS, it's obvious that Palpatine wanted and HOPED Anakin, a man he calls Son in the movies and even in the Dark Lord novel, to become the most powerful force user ever. Fine. Helping Vader move into a new body would be counter to that.

Vader's limbs being amputated, okay, that's a definate limitation that's hard to overcome quickly minus repairs. Having Vader without legs would make him pointless as an apprentice. Him stuck in a suit, he's still functional, and just needs a kick in his ass.

Fine. However, moving him into a new body? That's solving his problem FOR him. He wouldn't learn to heal himself and therefore grow in power.

It gave Anakin a goal, an obstatle that was not as abstract as 'get more powerful then Palpatine and then kill him.' It's specific. 'Give myself over to the Dark Side and learn to heal my injuries, then become more powerful then Palaptine and kill him.'

Working towards that goal would also keep him busy while Palpatine grew in power, thus forcing Vader to become more powerful to defeat him.

And in the mean time, if Palpatine figured out immortality (which to a degree he had by the time of a New Hope), great. Now he and Vader can rule the galaxy together forever, or he can wait for Vader to kick off and replace him ad nauseum.

All in All, it's WIN:WIN for Palpatine to keep Vader in the suit and not a new body. He keeps Vader on a leash and forces Vader to become more powerful if he wants to defeat him.

Shadowtraveler · Post by **Shadowtraveler** » 2006-03-21 02:25am

Ghost Rider wrote:Strange that Dark Lord essentially makes Vader out to be full strength when he realizes it's not physical that's holding him back but mental. At the end Vader admits he has no weakness and he could one day overcome Sidious by learning the Dark Side, and then ripping the old man in half.

Palpatine instills into Vader the thought to kill him and the notion that he will if a new more powerful being comes along that he will destroy him to insure a continuation of the Sith Order.

Didn't Palpatine say at the end of Dark Lord something along the lines of "Oh, Vader kicked some ass. Good for him. Not that it matters though, since once I discover the secrets to immortality, I'll live forever anyway"?

I'm just saying, I remember him saying something like that.

FTeik · Post by **FTeik** » 2006-03-21 07:01am

There is no need for Vader to get a new body, if he is at full power no matter what his physical condition.

Palpatine might have decided to keep Vader in the suit to keep him in a constant state of agony (to fuel the dark side) and as a constant reminder, that the "Chosen One" screwed up against Obi-Wan (and might do so against Palpatine, if he isn't careful).

What i don't get is, why Palpatine didn't use this body-switching thing of ordinary people as a means to secure his power. Think about people like Kuat of Kuat or the Tagges to get the following deal: "In exchange for eternal servitude you are going to live forever."

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2006-03-21 07:25am

FTeik wrote:There is no need for Vader to get a new body, if he is at full power no matter what his physical condition.

Palpatine might have decided to keep Vader in the suit to keep him in a constant state of agony (to fuel the dark side) and as a constant reminder, that the "Chosen One" screwed up against Obi-Wan (and might do so against Palpatine, if he isn't careful).

What i don't get is, why Palpatine didn't use this body-switching thing of ordinary people as a means to secure his power. Think about people like Kuat of Kuat or the Tagges to get the following deal: "In exchange for eternal servitude you are going to live forever."

Probably because of two reasons.

1. He didn't want any minion ever to have immortality.

2. Maybe it didn't work on everyone.

Even with Eframe harping upon it, just because it worked for Bevel is by no means a guarantee it works for anyone. So as a bonus it was just not feasible.

Lord Revan · Post by **Lord Revan** » 2006-03-21 08:46am

also the suit is constant reminder to Anakin of his loss (and thus a way to fuel Vader's anger).

NeoGoomba · Post by **NeoGoomba** » 2006-03-21 12:30pm

Solauren wrote: *snip*

Well, that works for me. And it creates a great image of Vader confronting Palpatine, and taking off his mask as a sign that the student is now the master, and then commences with the overthrowing of kooky old Palpy.

Bill_Dunaway · Post by **Bill_Dunaway** » 2006-03-21 07:21pm

Darksider wrote:No, because IIRC he didn't know how to transfer his essence into a new body.

There's no evidence Palpatine shared that knowledge with Vader

Couldn't he just have replaced his lungs, limbs, and damaged skin with the corresponding sections of a clone body? It would still be a fairly complicated procedure, but wouldn't require his essence to be transfered since his brain would remain in the original now refurbished body. They could do that with today's medical technology if a clone body could be created.

Cykeisme · Post by **Cykeisme** » 2006-03-22 02:16am

Solauren wrote:Palpatine probably kept him in the burned/diced up body because Vader couldn't free himself from it. Sure, in ROTS, it's obvious that Palpatine wanted and HOPED Anakin, a man he calls Son in the movies and even in the Dark Lord novel, to become the most powerful force user ever. Fine. Helping Vader move into a new body would be counter to that.

Vader's limbs being amputated, okay, that's a definate limitation that's hard to overcome quickly minus repairs. Having Vader without legs would make him pointless as an apprentice. Him stuck in a suit, he's still functional, and just needs a kick in his ass.

Fine. However, moving him into a new body? That's solving his problem FOR him. He wouldn't learn to heal himself and therefore grow in power.

It gave Anakin a goal, an obstatle that was not as abstract as 'get more powerful then Palpatine and then kill him.' It's specific. 'Give myself over to the Dark Side and learn to heal my injuries, then become more powerful then Palaptine and kill him.'

Working towards that goal would also keep him busy while Palpatine grew in power, thus forcing Vader to become more powerful to defeat him.

And in the mean time, if Palpatine figured out immortality (which to a degree he had by the time of a New Hope), great. Now he and Vader can rule the galaxy together forever, or he can wait for Vader to kick off and replace him ad nauseum.

All in All, it's WIN:WIN for Palpatine to keep Vader in the suit and not a new body. He keeps Vader on a leash and forces Vader to become more powerful if he wants to defeat him.

This is one of the first explanations I've seen that actually makes sense.

A lot of people seem to get this impression that Sidious wanted Vader to be kept weak so that the latter wouldn't be able to overthrow his master. This is bunk, because it is explicitly stated at various levels of the canon tree (including the highest) that Sidious knows and wants Vader to eventually become powerful enough to overthrow him. That's the reason why he spent thirteen years corrupting Anakin Skywalker. A Sith master always wants the strongest possible apprentice, even if it means that someday they will come to blows. If the apprentice wins, he deserved it. If he loses, then he was weaker anyway. That's pretty much how the Sith have grown in power over the interceding millenium: a self-functioning selection mechanism.

Powerful Anakin was always the apprentice he wanted. Even the novelization shows that Dooku was merely a placeholder, intended to facilitate the manufacture of the CIS threat and ultimately to serve as a final test for Skywalker. If Sidious had always wanted a weaker apprentice, he could simply have chosen a weaker Jedi from the start, instead of Anakin!

Even throughout Dark Lord he's trying to get Vader to get over his psychological barriers and regain his potential. His plan is to gain immortality for both of them, so that the Sith may rule for ten thousand years.. but if Vader becomes powerful enough to destroy him, he will accept it. It's the Sith way, as fanatical as any real religion.

That said, even if he had the ability to replace Vader's complete body, keeping him in the suit instead would delay the time it would take Vader to gain strength, thus allowing Sidious to also become stronger. The end result is, if a takeover would eventually occur, that Vader would have to become even stronger.. thus ensuring only the most powerful possible heir to the Sith remains, and increasing the odds of perpetual Sith rule.

Kurgan · Post by **Kurgan** » 2006-03-22 03:05am

There's no evidence I know of, that Palpatine knew Luke even existed until ESB, something like 23 years later.

According to Obi-Wan, the Emperor "knew" that any offspring Vader had would be a threat to him (a threat to Palpatine), which is why Leia and Luke were hidden. Vader and the Emperor learn about Luke finally decades later. If Palpatine was keeping Vader weak to prevent him being powerful enough to overthrow him, why trade him in for a more powerful apprentice like Luke? Just take the "handicap" off Vader. Or on the other hand, what's the logic of weakening your apprentice so he won't make his potential, then discarding him in favor of an even harder to control apprentice, that would be an even GREATER threat to yourself?

Maybe Palpatine is grow nuttier over time, but I get the feeling the logic of it would be that he thinks Vader is powerful, but the reason he wants to get rid of him is primarily because Vader has been having some "unclear feelings" lately, and he suspects treachery. So he gets Vader to prove his loyalty, by killing his own son in front of him. And if Vader happens to fail, he can just turn Luke, since Luke will have killed his own father, and the psychic damage should be enough to give him the opening to turn him, and he'll have an apprentice again. Vader isn't that old, via the prequels, he's only in his 40's by the time of ROTJ, and he's had 30 years of experience (13 as a Jedi, the rest as a Sith), compared to Luke's four (maximum, and much of that being self taught). Perhaps Luke has more potential, perhaps the rule of two is more elastic now in his mind, who knows, but I agree, I don't really buy the "keeping him weaker deliberately for fear of him being overthrown" as his actual strategy.

I mean, did he plan to get Luke to have an accident too so he could put him into another black respirator he happened to have in the back room lying around for just such an occasion?

Good point mentioning the soul transfer thingy. I think the whole idea is pretty crappy, but they could have tried to tie this to the mythical Darth Plagueis the Wise crap and say that Palpatine finally discovered the secret or something, tried it on a gamble and it worked. Oh well, another missed opportunity to salvage part of the EU and tie it to the new mythos...

Okay apologies for rambling, but as to why Vader didn't have clones made of himself and harvest them for parts to fix him up to at least close to full body... why not? Well, they wouldn't be rejected since they're cloned, and it's not like he cares about throwing lives away, plus by all counts he resented being in the suit. If it's so expensive, that's not a very good argument since they can afford to mass clone all these people anyway as cannon fodder and corridor guards and it's not like his uber armor is cheap either. If cloning tech is now "banned" who cares, Palpatine uses it, and the Empire uses it, secret or not. If they can waste clones on Stormies, they can waste it on the Emperor's right hand man. So maybe he's a masochist, or maybe his suit is actually better in some ways than flesh was for him, making him stronger or more durable in battle, or just flat out more intimidating.

Crazy_Vasey · Post by **Crazy_Vasey** » 2006-03-22 11:13am

Bill_Dunaway wrote:
Couldn't he just have replaced his lungs, limbs, and damaged skin with the corresponding sections of a clone body? It would still be a fairly complicated procedure, but wouldn't require his essence to be transfered since his brain would remain in the original now refurbished body. They could do that with today's medical technology if a clone body could be created.

Would Vader be able to survive long enough for such a procedure to be performed? He's pretty damn tied into that suit of his post-Mustafar and it's not going to be an easy task to get him out of it and then implant new cloned bits quickly enough.

Bill_Dunaway · Post by **Bill_Dunaway** » 2006-03-22 11:32am

Crazy_Vasey wrote:
Would Vader be able to survive long enough for such a procedure to be performed? He's pretty damn tied into that suit of his post-Mustafar and it's not going to be an easy task to get him out of it and then implant new cloned bits quickly enough.

As far as we know. the only critical parts Vader needs replaced are his lungs. The limb replacements and skin grafts can be set aside until he has recovered from this operation. I had a friend who survived a heart and lung transplant at the same time. He was born with a defective heart, and his lungs never developed properly. His heart was about to give out at the age of 21. He obviously had no force healing ability, there was a danger of organ rejection which wouldn't occur with clones parts, and the doctors had to work with considerably less sophisticated medical technology than the SW galaxy.

NeoGoomba · Post by **NeoGoomba** » 2006-03-22 11:37am

Crazy_Vasey wrote:
Would Vader be able to survive long enough for such a procedure to be performed? He's pretty damn tied into that suit of his post-Mustafar and it's not going to be an easy task to get him out of it and then implant new cloned bits quickly enough.

Well Palpatine, if he oversaw the procedure, could possibly aid in keeping Vader alive during the operation like he did on the shuttle ride back to Coruscant.

Turin · Post by **Turin** » 2006-03-22 11:43am

Kurgan wrote:According to Obi-Wan, the Emperor "knew" that any offspring Vader had would be a threat to him (a threat to Palpatine), which is why Leia and Luke were hidden. Vader and the Emperor learn about Luke finally decades later. If Palpatine was keeping Vader weak to prevent him being powerful enough to overthrow him, why trade him in for a more powerful apprentice like Luke?

I think that Obi-Wan means that Anakin's offspring would be a threat to the Emperor because he knows that the offspring would be the only way that Vader could be made to be disloyal. Even if Obi-Wan doesn't think that Vader can be turned from the Dark Side, I'm sure Obi-Wan is aware that Palpatine would be worried about having his apprentice turn away from him... it would be a threat to his power and his long-term Sith Empire.

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2006-03-22 11:52am

Turin wrote:
Kurgan wrote:According to Obi-Wan, the Emperor "knew" that any offspring Vader had would be a threat to him (a threat to Palpatine), which is why Leia and Luke were hidden. Vader and the Emperor learn about Luke finally decades later. If Palpatine was keeping Vader weak to prevent him being powerful enough to overthrow him, why trade him in for a more powerful apprentice like Luke?
I think that Obi-Wan means that Anakin's offspring would be a threat to the Emperor because he knows that the offspring would be the only way that Vader could be made to be disloyal. Even if Obi-Wan doesn't think that Vader can be turned from the Dark Side, I'm sure Obi-Wan is aware that Palpatine would be worried about having his apprentice turn away from him... it would be a threat to his power and his long-term Sith Empire.

How does that explain "Luke, you can destroy the Emperor. He has foreseen this." in ESB?

or in the ROTJ novelization when the Emperor feels fear upon seeing Luke for the first time because he is so powerful.

Anakin's offspring were a direct threat to the Emperor not because they might turn Vader. He never considered Vader a threat of turning on him for his children. Note the trust in allowing Vader to block Luke's attack, turning his back on Vader when he starts frying Luke. Hell even Yoda and OBi Wan never even considered trying to turn Vader with Luke, they urged Luke to kill his own father.

Its very clear and obvious that the threat is that Anakin's offspring will be powerful enough to defeat Palpatine.