Rank the Jedi/Sith

[The Grim Squeaker]

Anakin may well have thought he would reach that level of power and he may well have done, but in terms of hard evidence the most powerful we ever see him as a warrior loses to Obi-Wan.

Due to Obi-Wan using the terrain and outmaneuvering him and utilizing his hot-headedness.
Whenever Obi-Wan couldn't retreat Anakin had a definite edge, and Lucas did say that while Anakin was far more powerful/skilled at level 8 (Obi was 7, Mace/Yoda/Sidious 9, full power Anakin at 10).
Vader was arguably weaker than Anakin (He had weaker forcepowers at least), but He beat Obi-Wan on the DS in a fight which did not let Obi-Wan retreat and in which he (Vader) was calm and not a hot head.

[NecronLord]

It's arguable as to whether Obi-Wan could have helped.
I can't see him survivng the surpise force blast (At the start of the fight) that Hurt a ready Yoda badly (Who could chanel sith lightning as was proven later in the fight).

Really? I see no proof that Palpy's lightning is more powerful than say, Dooku's. What stops Obi Wan whipping out his sabre and stopping any that comes his way? He's the unparalelled master of defensive sabre combat, remember.

If Obi-Wan had died (Probably in the start of the fight) and Yoda had failed to kill Palpatine then the Galaxy wouldn't have a hope in hell due to the Future uber Sith Anakin would become.

Yoda wasn't aware that they had a chance anyway. If he failed to slay Sidious, it wouldn't matter whether or not Anakin was dead. He should have concentrated his forces.

It said that he couldn't see then due to the speed at which they fought.
It's quite possible that we saw them normally due to being"magic" observers in a different time frame, we did not see them through the characters eyes.

No it's not. The traffic outside should slow down, the blinking lights in the office, and so on would also show a time dialation.

Strange definition for "Writhed on the ground helpless and screaming" against Palaptine's weaker lightning.

He was already learning to turn it back like Yoda did. That's canon, from the RotJ novel. That's why he wasn't dead.

Palpatine was torturing him, after the "So be it, Jedi" speech Palpatine started some Real lightning that almost killed Luke after a very short exposure (Before Vader saved him while being killed himself by the lightning).

Vader died because the lightning fucked up his systems, not because Palpatine was shooting 0.1% power lightning before.

Like the 4-5 Jedi council members that Palaptine slaughtered despite Windu standing next to them?

Observe him getting the drop on them. If you're wondering, that scene was filmed with the intent that the Jedi didn't know he was a Sith Lord, then the Anakin tells Mace scene was inserted in post. That's the out of universe reason they're so crap. Out of universe, they're probably expecting him to be unarmed or some such. Either that, or Mace didn't tell the other jedi that Palpatine was Sith, which would be retarded, but then, they are Jedi...

Obi-Wan was the 3d best council member but not by the same level Yoda or (Arguably) Mace were.

He exceeds the other two in some respects, according to the novel.

But angling your blast of force lightning slightly isn't.

How the flying fuck do you know that?

And fighting 6-5 Jedi council members at once isn't even harder?

Note that Palpatine was beaten fair and square there.

After Yoda ran away, he did not summon reinforcement during the fight, nor did he tell Massa Meeda to summon troopers.

That's precisely what he did do. Observe the troops at the end of the fight.

then why not send Obi-Wan to kill the future threat rather than have him slaughtered needlessy.

Because the future threat is nothing compared to Palpatine.

Sidious might have summoned a few battalions of troopers if he felt that the odds were uneven.

Prove he had warning enough to do that. Because what I saw in the film was the Coruscant Guard turning up after a few minutes, exactly as if Palpatine's aide had summoned help.

Then why not bring the droids and Padme to the fight, they might serve as a distraction and it's a shame to split your resources like that.

Padme wasn't exactly at their disposal at this time. She wasn't working in collusion with them.

Why? Obi-Wan's life would be spent well to take out Sidious. Can't you see that?

But not well spent to be killed in one attack.

Sure it is. The fight between Yoda and Sidious shown in the canon was that close. Even a slight distraction would tip the odds.

We saw that mere council members were not even meat shields to Sidious, yet all those members at once could have quite possibly killed Anakin. (Despite his ludicrous hyperbole about having the power of any ten masters )

Frankly, those guys were rather obviously taken by surprise. Look at the way they act on the film. Whatever they were expecting, it wasn't a fully armed Sith Lord.

Then why didn't Sidious have that cruiser (Rather than his shuttle) catch the starfighter with Vader's killer?

Stupidity. These characters aren't smart, they miss opportunities all the time. Including "Captain Kargi, interdict the planet, destroy anything taking off" - presumably Kargi wasn't prepared to destroy a diplomatic transport without explicit orders. For all he knows, Vader's on board.

Yoda did cloak himself in the force from Sidious after running away, he might have managed to do so again, then he could ambush Sidious with his now disposable meat shield while Sidious was busy keeping Vader alive.

Either that, or Sidious was just too tired to scry him out.

Sidious had taught him at least a few elements of the Sith,

What the fuck? We saw no such thing.

and Sith force ghosts have instructed new Sith of great potential in the past (Freedon Nadd for example).

Yoda knows this? And it's still worth bothering about? Even then, it comes down to Yoda vs Anakin, if Obi-Wan gets killed attacking Sidious, and that's just a steamroller scenario.

Or the "cartloads" of ancient Sith holocrons once held in the jedi temple that had been retrieved by him.

Does he even know where Sidious put them? Even then, it's still Yoda vs Anakin.

He would be still a hero in the eyes of most, and at 2 times Sidous's power would be able to mindcontrol the Senate easily (Look at what Exar Kunn did with ease, and imagine someone making Force storms more than twice as powerful as Wankatines)

Ahahahah.

That's priceless. You think that Sidious mind controlled people into following him? Err.. No. There's a reason he kept his Sith identity secret, and played 'benevolent emperor.'

[NecronLord]

(He felt that before long he would be able to kill Sidious after learning the Secret to sustaining life)

Let's not trust Issues-Boy's judgement, please. Hell, Issues-Boy didn't even pick up that Sidious was bullshitting him when Sidious out and out admitted he didn't know how to preseve life.

[petesampras]

Anakin may well have thought he would reach that level of power and he may well have done, but in terms of hard evidence the most powerful we ever see him as a warrior loses to Obi-Wan.

Due to Obi-Wan using the terrain and outmaneuvering him and utilizing his hot-headedness.
Whenever Obi-Wan couldn't retreat Anakin had a definite edge, and Lucas did say that while Anakin was far more powerful/skilled at level 8 (Obi was 7, Mace/Yoda/Sidious 9, full power Anakin at 10).
Vader was arguably weaker than Anakin (He had weaker forcepowers at least), but He beat Obi-Wan on the DS in a fight which did not let Obi-Wan retreat and in which he (Vader) was calm and not a hot head.

In fairness he beat an ageing Obi-Wan who had not fought for 2 decades, I don't think you can draw any useful information from that battle as to how peak Anakin would fair against peak Obi-Wan.

If George Lucas has stated that Anakin would eventually be able to defeat a peak Obi-Wan easily (or statements from which that can be concluded), then fair enough, it is true. Otherwise, it seems mainly the beliefs of the characters within the Starwars universe that it could/would happen, which isn't hard evidence especially given that he lost the fight at the closest to their peaks we ever see him.

[NecronLord]

Due to Obi-Wan using the terrain and outmaneuvering him and utilizing his hot-headedness.
Whenever Obi-Wan couldn't retreat Anakin had a definite edge, and Lucas did say that while Anakin was far more powerful/skilled at level 8 (Obi was 7, Mace/Yoda/Sidious 9, full power Anakin at 10).

Forget what Lucas says, just analyse the films. Lucas says all sorts of hyperbole and shit, like Geonosians crewing the Death Star I, that doesn't gel with the films at all.

Vader was arguably weaker than Anakin (He had weaker forcepowers at least),

Incorrect. The 'Crush the Droids' scene is actually one of the most impressive canon force feats.

but He beat Obi-Wan on the DS in a fight which did not let Obi-Wan retreat and in which he (Vader) was calm and not a hot head.

No, he'd just grown up and begun using a half decent fighting style, instead of ludicrous swishing.

[Stravo]

(He felt that before long he would be able to kill Sidious after learning the Secret to sustaining life)

Let's not trust Issues-Boy's judgement, please. Hell, Issues-Boy didn't even pick up that Sidious was bullshitting him when Sidious out and out admitted he didn't know how to preseve life.

I think part of that is covered by Lucas and others who say that Anakin felt there was no turning back at that point after helping kill Mace. He knew he was as good as dead and the Jedi would never forgive him (at least in his mind) if he tried to return to the fold so he threw in his lot with Palpy even though he knew Palpy was lying by then as well.

Further supported by the "crying on Mustafar" scene which GL explained was the last good bit of Anakin mourning what he had done and making the final decision to stay the course even though he knew he would lose everything including Padme.

Sometimes you make choices in life that you feel you can never turn back on and must continue down even to your detriment. I could sympathize with Anakin in that regard.

[NecronLord]

I think part of that is covered by Lucas and others who say that Anakin felt there was no turning back at that point after helping kill Mace. He knew he was as good as dead and the Jedi would never forgive him (at least in his mind) if he tried to return to the fold so he threw in his lot with Palpy even though he knew Palpy was lying by then as well.

See, his judgement sucks. The smart move would have been to stab Palpatine in the guts, and split him from the nave to the chops, when he says that and then tell Yoda et al that Palpatine killed Mace.

[Stravo]

I think part of that is covered by Lucas and others who say that Anakin felt there was no turning back at that point after helping kill Mace. He knew he was as good as dead and the Jedi would never forgive him (at least in his mind) if he tried to return to the fold so he threw in his lot with Palpy even though he knew Palpy was lying by then as well.

See, his judgement sucks. The smart move would have been to stab Palpatine in the guts when he says that and then tell Yoda et al that Palpatine killed Mace.

I don't think Anakin has that kind of guile in him and even if he did there is still that tantalizing bit of knowledge that Palpatine MIGHT at least be able to help him save Padme.

Remember on the platform that is the reason he is holding onto as a justification for what he did though alone with Palpy it seems to be more of a self preservation rationale as he agrees with Palpy that the Jedi will try to kill them and the senators.

Also remember that Anakin buys into the idea of a Jedi coup since he shoots that back at Obi Wan on Mustafar "I should have known the jedi were plotting to take over." In Anakin's mind he was still the good guy trying to stop the Jedi from taking over - allying with the devil if he had to to save his Empire---uh I mean Republic.

There's alot of layers to Anakin's decision that can't be simply put out of hand as bad judgment. He was played as skillfully as Palpatine played the entire Jedi Order and the Senate and the Republic at large.

[NecronLord]

I rather think that allying with a hyper-mass murdering bastard who set up the clone wars causing the deaths of trillions in order to save your wife (and it gets worse when you know that the guy doesn't really know) qualifies quite eminently as bad judgement. He may have reasons, but ultimately, he's a sucker and patsy, especially given that he knows Sidious set the entire thing up (see LoE). It's appallingly bad judgement that he didn't just flick his blade through Sidious' neck when he revealed himself. The rest is icing on the cake.

[Tiriol]

I rather think that allying with a hyper-mass murdering bastard who set up the clone wars causing the deaths of trillions in order to save your wife (and it gets worse when you know that the guy doesn't really know) qualifies quite eminently as bad judgement. He may have reasons, but ultimately, he's a sucker and patsy, especially given that he knows Sidious set the entire thing up (see LoE). It's appallingly bad judgement that he didn't just flick his blade through Sidious' neck when he revealed himself. The rest is icing on the cake.

The very possibility that Sidious could somehow teach Anakin the secret of Lord Plaqueis's path of creating life out of the Force must have been one thing that kept Anakin from killing the Sith Lord; the other might be the fact that Anakin at least claimed to want fair trial for Sidious before the hand-off incident with Master Windu; and the third reason would be that Palpatine had set himself up as a grandfather/father/loving uncle figure for Anakin and had done so for 12 years. It is hard to kill someone that close.

Not that I am contesting your assesment of Anakin: his ideas were self-centered, immature and devoid of all rational thinking (it was a surprise for Obi-Wan on the Death Star to see how mature his old apprentice's mind had become).

Of course, Anakin killing Palpatine would still count as high treason against the Republic and although the Jedi might not get blamed on the whole, Anakin could get imprisoned for life and the public opinion could very well turn against the Jedi - RotS novelization hints that the Jedi's PR had suffered after some of them had fallen to the dark side during the war or abandoned the whole conflict. Palpatine certainly didn't believe that Anakin would kill him, but it appears that whatever the Jedi did, they would be ultimately doomed.

[NecronLord]

Of course, Anakin killing Palpatine would still count as high treason against the Republic and although the Jedi might not get blamed on the whole, Anakin could get imprisoned for life and the public opinion could very well turn against the Jedi - RotS novelization hints that the Jedi's PR had suffered after some of them had fallen to the dark side during the war or abandoned the whole conflict. Palpatine certainly didn't believe that Anakin would kill him, but it appears that whatever the Jedi did, they would be ultimately doomed.

Palapatine's supporters would probably push it through using the normal process, but given that the Jedi were about to take-over and deStalinise the senate anyway... And without the Executive around, the Grand Army would probably obey their generals.

[Tiriol]

Of course, Anakin killing Palpatine would still count as high treason against the Republic and although the Jedi might not get blamed on the whole, Anakin could get imprisoned for life and the public opinion could very well turn against the Jedi - RotS novelization hints that the Jedi's PR had suffered after some of them had fallen to the dark side during the war or abandoned the whole conflict. Palpatine certainly didn't believe that Anakin would kill him, but it appears that whatever the Jedi did, they would be ultimately doomed.

Palapatine's supporters would probably push it through using the normal process, but given that the Jedi were about to take-over and deStalinise the senate anyway... And without the Executive around, the Grand Army would probably obey their generals.

Perhaps. However, it would still generate a load of bad karma for the Jedi, since they would be seen as nothing more than a quasi-religious fanatic group who just toppled a lawful goverment and replaced it with one of their liking. Without Palpatine fanning the flames and the clonetroopers loyal to the Jedi generals things could go smoothly, but the transitition would cause a notable crisis of confidence in the Jedi Order among those who could not or would not understand the reason of having Palpatine's puppet Senate replaced. As Terry Pratchett noted in Wyrd Sisters, every Senator, Speaker, Supreme Chancellor etc. would know that they have their position only because the Jedi, not their people, happen to approve of them - not something that would increase the rulers' faith in the Jedi. We do know that the Jedi were right, but how much convincing would it take before the galaxy would know and believe it?

[NecronLord]

Well, there's a fair amount of evidence that Sidious was behind the Seperatists, IIRC. They'd have to make it known and accepted that Palpatine was the puppet master of the Seperatists,

[FTeik]

With what evidence?

[NecronLord]

In Labyrinth of Evil, they had good evidence of Sidious (including images of him) being behind the Seperatists, and they'd tracked Darth Sidious down to Palpatine's apartment building.

[Vympel]

Vader died because the lightning fucked up his systems, not because Palpatine was shooting 0.1% power lightning before.

Actually, Palpatine was using weaker lightning and then he intensified his attack. It's in the novel.

[Crown]

Because Anakin is the most powerful Jedi of his generation, period. Canon fact, novelization (and glaringly obvious fact that makes the entire plot happen). The end.

RotS Movie. Highest order of canon;

Darth Vader will become more powerful than both of us

Or was it either? Regardless, the key word for us here is 'will', as in 'not yet but soon'. Get it? Anyway;

Powerful enough to face the Emperor you are not ...

... but go ahead and kill Darth Vader.

So Bzzt. Wrong. The novelisation is over ruled by the film which makes it clear as fucking day that Anakin has not reached the zenith of his power yet.

Given that Obi-Wan never stayed still to overpower and retreated continuously, this is not surprising.

Your response sort of doesn't make sense.

How does that help you? If anything, it merely reveals that, once again, noone was cancelling anything else out. And given that it's quite obvious that Yoda knew he wasn't strong enough to beat Palpatine irrespective of them both blasting each other off the pod, this is yet another piece of evidence that calls into question your "argument from force push and damn everything else" reasoning. Palpatine's reserves of power were greater- just like Anakin's are stated to be, canonically- not "potential" to be, are.

What are you talking about? Are we watching the same bloody movie? The Yoda/Darth Sidious duel was fucking balanced on a razor's edge. Yoda lost due to his smaller size, he just couldn't get back up there.

Regardless, no this doesn't hurt my arguement at all - which is starting to dawn on me you have zero idea what it is - it demonstrates it perfectly. The nice visuals show us two characters just pumping (for lack of better terms) Force Energy at each other, both reflecting it back off each other, and keeping it from hurting themselves. Then at a certain point (in fact the same instant) both characters could no longer contain it anymore - and the Force Energy manifestited itself as light and telekinesis.

Now, what we would have expected if one character to be stronger than the other, is quite simple. The weaker character's ability to redirect and protect themselves would have 'given out' first. The best example I can give is two combatants arm wrestling. One slowly and surely wearing the other down until they have them beat - of course when two arm wrestlers are both equal they don't go flying backwards, but hey it's not a perfect analogy.

That's bullshit. You never said this the last time I said that, and if you want to discuss the issue, I'm perfectly willing to. You appealed to Bob Brown's claim that Obi-Wan could hold Vader off "all day". I responded that Bob Brown doesn't give a hint of concern to whether Obi-Wan had the reserves of force energy to do so, because he thinks lightsabre fighting is nothing but fencing.

Actually, I never replied (I am absent due to other comitments, and just didn't feel like necroing a thread). Anyway the post in question is here, specifically this part;

Bob Brown has always hated any canon information he doesn't like- such as the entire prequel trilogy.

Which stuck in my memory since his analysis of the prequel trilogy (despite his very well publisised distaste) was actually in synch with the movies and the EU (Maul being an outstanding swordsman, better than both Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan, Obi-Wan being ridiculous and largely in effective, etc), but you do have a point, and I didn't at all remember the following;

He looks at the Vader vs Obi-Wan fight and says "Obi-Wan could hold Vader off all day" without giving a hint of thought as to whether he can maintain that sort of defence indefinitely, because a battle between Jedi is a battle of not just raw skill but also the *Force*. When Vader refers to Obi-Wan's "powers" as being weak, that's exactly what he means. Given how quickly Count Dooku (over 20 years Obi-Wan's senior by the time of ANH) and Qui-Gon (Obi-Wan's age in TPM) can move compared to how slow Obi-Wan was in ANH, it's quite possible that Vader was restricting his movements in the same manner that he attempted against Dooku back in AotC (AotC novel).

So I retract my statement above and offer an apology.

Huh? How does throwing out the EU follow? If anything, your "argument from force push" is intent on throwing out everything we know from every single tier of canon for the sole purpose of maintaining your Obi-Wan views.

Appeal to Motive Fallacy.

The movie overrides nothing. The plot of the movie wouldn't even have happened if everyone and their dog was wrong about Anakin's power. Further, you're wrong about the novel. To quote:

This is Anakin Skywalker. The most powerful Jedi of his generation. Perhaps of any generation. The fastest. The strongest. An unbeatable pilot. An unstoppable warrior. On the ground, in the air or sea or space, there is no one even close. He has not just power, not just skill ...

He is the best there is at what he does. The best there has ever been. And he knows it.

The end.

I will just point you to the top of this reply and simply say this; conceed.

What skill?

Force Wall.

And the fact that Obi-Wan lost fair and square in AotC? The fact that he couldn't replicate Dooku's feat in deflecting the lightning with his hand? This is not about just one piece of evidence.

Didn't not couldn't. He didn't even try. The latter implies that he is incapable of doing it, even if you have jack shit proof there of.

So you're appealing to ignorance. Let me put it this way- what reason do you have, whatsoever, to argue that Obi-Wan could beat Dooku?

That is not an appeal to ignorance. It is a fucking fact. We don't know if he could do it or not, since he has never been in a position where he needs to do it. It is quite simple you realise. You see if he had been in a position where he did try and failed and I retorted 'we don't know the 'mechanincs' of Force Lightning repeling techinque' then that would be an Appeal to Ignorance. But to say; we don't know if Obi-Wan can eat 47 hard boiled eggs in a row isn't.

And, let's bring it up again- lightsabre combat is NOT simple fencing. It's also a fight in the force.

Was there any *shred* of evidence that any of this was going on between Obi-Wan and Dooku in AotC?

So yes, that is quantifiable evidence.

Really? In terms of Newtons, Joules, Watts or Vympel's fantasy units?

Not to mention that by arguing this, you're implicitly putting Obi-Wan level with Yoda- did you see Yoda effortlessly overpower Dooku in force combat? No. They couldn't overcome each other.

Yoda never retaliated at Dooku even once (beyond reflecting Dooku's own lightning back at him), so no I'm not implying that.

Oh please. Everyone knows A>OW, merely because he got arrogant and made a bad call doesn't change that fact.

So you admit to fault to rock, paper, scissors, and that it actually doesn't quantify anything?

You mean besides ignoring that a duel is a battle in the force as much as it is between lightsabres.

Force 'battle' can be broken by simply not paying attention, or letting ones' awarness slip a little. It is not the same fucking thing as two characters actively trying to achieve dominance over the other (by blasting them unto the wall and turning them into splatter).

Funny, then how come Obi-Wan didn't know Vader was right outside, since it's oh so easy?

The guy was hiding Vympel. Not actively searching who was standing outside the ship.

Darth Tyranus may simply not be in tune with the force like Anakin is. Given Obi-Wan's inability to use the Force to locate Zam Wessell's position when chasing her in AotC, a feat Anakin easily accomplished and acted on by jumping out of the speeder, I say the same applies to Obi-Wan.

For fucks sake, here I'll make it easy for you; WHAT THE FUCK IS YOUR POINT? You brought up this whole 'stalking' angle to demonstrate that Vader was somehow more powerful than Obi-Wan in ANH. I retorted that does this also mean that, by default, Obi-Wan is more powerful than Darth Tyranus in AotC since it was he who was stalking him, without Darth Tyranus being any the wiser? You have FLAT OUT IGNORED THIS POINT and have me chasing my tail over it.

Also AotC, both Anakin and Obi-Wan sensed Padme's danger at the same time. During the speeder Obi-Wan was more concerned to bitch to his Padawan than to try and concentrate to find Zam. His Padawan on the other hand, wasn't paying attention to him, but concentrating of finding Zam. So am I suprised that he did? No.

What does this have to do with Obi-Wan? Nothing. Unless, again, you're going to argue that Obi-Wan has a chance against the Emperor? And what's this "half-trained boy" nonsense? Don't you think he was planning on training Luke first?

Dude, it was a throw away arguement. I honestly can't remember.

Of course it wasn't his plan at the time Vader said it. He was too busy messing around with the Death Star's tractor beam.

Alright. That's gotta be true just for the sheer audasity of how you say that with a straight face.

What above?

That clearly Obi-Wan was having (at one time) psychological issues. I'll drop it, it is immaterial.

No, simple canon fact.

No, it is an Appeal to Label falacy.

Then what is your argument?

That at RotS Anakin/Darth Vader was evenly matched with Obi-Wan, and that of ANH I don't believe that Vader could have put Obi-Wan away if not for his posse surrounding Obi-Wan.

You claimed that the novleization tells us that Obi-Wan gave up the ghost. The novelization doesn't have Obi-Wan giving up, so this is an impossible claim. What the novelization actually says is that the Stormtroopers had cut off his route of escape.

My point. Above.

You mean the posse who just sat there watching? They blocked off his route to the Falcon, nothing more.

Yes, every which way.The one time Obi-Wan is fool enough to stand his ground, Vader easily shoves him, Obi-Wan almost shits himself, then goes reeling backward as Vader slices the wall next to him as Obi-Wan stumbles away. The rest of the time, Obi-Wan is constantly retreating to be whereever Vader isn't. Not once is Vader in difficulty.

No one is arguing that Vader isn't physically stronger than Obi-Wan. Although, he obviously didn't fear as much as you state given that he would turn his back on him every now and then.

Vader's duel against Luke was complicated by the fact that Vader was trying to take Luke alive. Do you really think that Vader couldn't have put Luke away permanently if he wished it?

Wow. Way to miss the point. The point is 'do you think that time is a fucking shitty and arbitary factor when determining the condition of a fight, when one character is just fucking around (Vader against Luke), or the other one, just gives up (Obi-Wan)?' If you respond 'yes' to the former (which you did), then you would be a hypocrite to say 'no' to the later.

See above.

No. You see above.

[Vympel]

RotS Movie. Highest order of canon;

Or was it either? Regardless, the key word for us here is 'will', as in 'not yet but soon'. Get it? Anyway;

That is not the issue. Since when is this a fight between Anakin and Sidious or Yoda?

... but go ahead and kill Darth Vader.

Right, because, as we all know, Yoda sending Obi-Wan to do the easier job implies that Obi-Wan must be more powerful

So Bzzt. Wrong. The novelisation is over ruled by the film which makes it clear as fucking day that Anakin has not reached the zenith of his power yet.

Totally irrelevant. He doesn't need to reach "the zenith of his power", he just needs to be better than Obi-Wan, which he is.

Your response sort of doesn't make sense.

It makes perfect sense.

What are you talking about? Are we watching the same bloody movie? The Yoda/Darth Sidious duel was fucking balanced on a razor's edge. Yoda lost due to his smaller size, he just couldn't get back up there.

Complete nonsense. I direct you to here on Mike's RotS page:

"The shadow could feel how much it cost the little green freak to bend back his lightnings into the cage of energy that enclosed them both; the creature had reached the limits of his strength."

In short, unlike Windu, Yoda could not redirect Palpatine's lightning without draining himself of power. While the battle may have appeared close, Yoda had used up his last reserves of energy by the end and had no choice but to retreat. Therefore, the novelization seems to support the conclusion that Mace Windu was the only man in the galaxy (other than Anakin) who stood a chance to defeat Palpatine.

And of course, we know that Yoda himself in the novel admits that he just "doesn't have it".

Regardless, no this doesn't hurt my arguement at all - which is starting to dawn on me you have zero idea what it is - it demonstrates it perfectly. The nice visuals show us two characters just pumping (for lack of better terms) Force Energy at each other, both reflecting it back off each other, and keeping it from hurting themselves. Then at a certain point (in fact the same instant) both characters could no longer contain it anymore - and the Force Energy manifestited itself as light and telekinesis.

Since when was Yoda pumping force energy at Palpatine? Palpatine was the only one shooting force lightning, Yoda was shooting lightning.

Now, what we would have expected if one character to be stronger than the other, is quite simple. The weaker character's ability to redirect and protect themselves would have 'given out' first. The best example I can give is two combatants arm wrestling. One slowly and surely wearing the other down until they have them beat - of course when two arm wrestlers are both equal they don't go flying backwards, but hey it's not a perfect analogy.

See above re "force reserves". It cost Yoda too much to prevent Palpatine from turning him into a green crispy treat.

Actually, I never replied (I am absent due to other comitments, and just didn't feel like necroing a thread). Anyway the post in question is here, specifically this part;

So I retract my statement above and offer an apology.

Fair enough.

Appeal to Motive Fallacy.

That's not the problem (one's motive is of course to always win the argument), it's the dismissal of evidence that's the problem.

I will just point you to the top of this reply and simply say this; conceed.

I've already responded to why your "will become more powerful than either of us" quote does nothing for you, since you're implicitly putting Obi-Wan as equal to Sidious and Yoda, which is patently absurd.

Force Wall.

Then the answer would be no.

Didn't not couldn't. He didn't even try. The latter implies that he is incapable of doing it, even if you have jack shit proof there of.

If Obi-Wan was able to catch and then re-direct lightning back at Dooku like Yoda was able to, I'm pretty sure he would have. The only reason Mace Windu could do it with his lightsabre was because of Vaapad.

That is not an appeal to ignorance. It is a fucking fact. We don't know if he could do it or not, since he has never been in a position where he needs to do it. It is quite simple you realise. You see if he had been in a position where he did try and failed and I retorted 'we don't know the 'mechanincs' of Force Lightning repeling techinque' then that would be an Appeal to Ignorance. But to say; we don't know if Obi-Wan can eat 47 hard boiled eggs in a row isn't.

See above.

Was there any *shred* of evidence that any of this was going on between Obi-Wan and Dooku in AotC?

The movies and novelizations (to say nothing of the EU) are replete with references on battles being fought with force ability backing them up, always. To argue that maybe Dooku and Obi-Wan were just fencing and not using their force powers whatsoever while fighting (in particular, precognition etc) is simply desperation.

Really? In terms of Newtons, Joules, Watts or Vympel's fantasy units?

I don't see you coming up with a unit for your argument from force push.

Yoda never retaliated at Dooku even once (beyond reflecting Dooku's own lightning back at him), so no I'm not implying that.

Fair enough.

So you admit to fault to rock, paper, scissors, and that it actually doesn't quantify anything?

No. If Obi-Wan had beaten Anakin straight up that would be good evidence that at the time, Obi-Wan was better. He wasn't.

Force 'battle' can be broken by simply not paying attention, or letting ones' awarness slip a little. It is not the same fucking thing as two characters actively trying to achieve dominance over the other (by blasting them unto the wall and turning them into splatter).

Where do you get that claim from?

The guy was hiding Vympel. Not actively searching who was standing outside the ship.

Erm- huh? He's a Jedi. He doesn't need to go anywhere.

For fucks sake, here I'll make it easy for you; WHAT THE FUCK IS YOUR POINT? You brought up this whole 'stalking' angle to demonstrate that Vader was somehow more powerful than Obi-Wan in ANH. I retorted that does this also mean that, by default, Obi-Wan is more powerful than Darth Tyranus in AotC since it was he who was stalking him, without Darth Tyranus being any the wiser? You have FLAT OUT IGNORED THIS POINT and have me chasing my tail over it.

Obi-Wan didn't "stalk' Dooku, he spied on their meeting- and was, incidentally, caught. In any event, though it's not conclusive as to their relative power, it is good evidence.

Also AotC, both Anakin and Obi-Wan sensed Padme's danger at the same time. During the speeder Obi-Wan was more concerned to bitch to his Padawan than to try and concentrate to find Zam. His Padawan on the other hand, wasn't paying attention to him, but concentrating of finding Zam. So am I suprised that he did? No.

And what's Obi-Wan's excuse on the Death Star?.

No, it is an Appeal to Label falacy.

Is there even such a fallacy?

That at RotS Anakin/Darth Vader was evenly matched with Obi-Wan, and that of ANH I don't believe that Vader could have put Obi-Wan away if not for his posse surrounding Obi-Wan.

A. If Obi-Wan was evenly matched with Anakin, he wouldn't have resorted to constant retreat in their duel.
B. Vader's stormtroopers blocked off his escape to the Falcon, nothing more. A weaker fighter can always stave off defeat by merely retreating, that doesn't say anything about the other guy.

No one is arguing that Vader isn't physically stronger than Obi-Wan. Although, he obviously didn't fear as much as you state given that he would turn his back on him every now and then.

He did a little twirly spin once, so what? Anakin and Obi-Wan constantly did that in their duel on Mustafar, to the point of absurdity, does that mean they were both idiots for not taking advantage of it? Or could they see what could happen next thanks to their precognition and decide it was better to wait?

Wow. Way to miss the point. The point is 'do you think that time is a fucking shitty and arbitary factor when determining the condition of a fight, when one character is just fucking around (Vader against Luke), or the other one, just gives up (Obi-Wan)?' If you respond 'yes' to the former (which you did), then you would be a hypocrite to say 'no' to the later.

Apples and oranges. Obi-Wan wasn't "fucking around" in his fight with Vader. He gave up at the end, nothing more.

[Crown]

<snip>

That is not the issue. Since when is this a fight between Anakin and Sidious or Yoda?

<snip>

Right, because, as we all know, Yoda sending Obi-Wan to do the easier job implies that Obi-Wan must be more powerful

<snip>
Totally irrelevant. He doesn't need to reach "the zenith of his power", he just needs to be better than Obi-Wan, which he is.

The response was to your claim that Anakin was the most powerful Jedi (Force user) at the time of RotS ... which he wasn't. I suspect you know this but are too stuborn to simply even admit a concession.

It makes perfect sense.

Well. That cleared that up... You know, you could - here's a novel thought - try and rephrase it somehow.

Complete nonsense. I direct you to here on Mike's RotS page:

"The shadow could feel how much it cost the little green freak to bend back his lightnings into the cage of energy that enclosed them both; the creature had reached the limits of his strength."

In short, unlike Windu, Yoda could not redirect Palpatine's lightning without draining himself of power. While the battle may have appeared close, Yoda had used up his last reserves of energy by the end and had no choice but to retreat. Therefore, the novelization seems to support the conclusion that Mace Windu was the only man in the galaxy (other than Anakin) who stood a chance to defeat Palpatine.

And of course, we know that Yoda himself in the novel admits that he just "doesn't have it".

None of this address or even responds to my point Vympel. Are you ever planing on stop doing this, or shall we dance around the issue some more?

Since when was Yoda pumping force energy at Palpatine? Palpatine was the only one shooting force lightning, Yoda was shooting lightning.

I accept your nitpick as being true, but fail to see how this serves in addressing any of my point.

See above re "force reserves". It cost Yoda too much to prevent Palpatine from turning him into a green crispy treat.

No one is denying that - as shocking as that may sound - all that I'm saying is that in terms of pure Force energy tolerance, the two characters are evenly matched. A point, which you have yet again, avoided addressing entirely.

That's not the problem (one's motive is of course to always win the argument), it's the dismissal of evidence that's the problem.

That's a funny thing to say for someone who makes the bold claim that Anakin is the most powerful Jedi during RotS based on novel evidence, and then when flat out pointed out movie evidence which contradicts this, doesn't even acknowledge their error.

I've already responded to why your "will become more powerful than either of us" quote does nothing for you, since you're implicitly putting Obi-Wan as equal to Sidious and Yoda, which is patently absurd.

No. You did no such thing. You used a novel quote of a first person monologue of a character's own self apraision of themselves - a character who can best be described as self deluded - to try and paint them as the strongest Jedi during RotS. When movie evidence is brought up to refute this point, you side step, dodge and dance around the issue throwing up strawman's and evasions.

Please. Pray tell exactly where and when I ever stated Obi-Wan being equal to Sidious or Yoda?

If Obi-Wan was able to catch and then re-direct lightning back at Dooku like Yoda was able to, I'm pretty sure he would have.

Allow me to rephrase; if Jedi could run around at highway speeds, I'm pretty sure they would have...

Your responce doesn't prove anything. The guy had his lightsabre on an activated, what did you want him to do? Shut it down and block the Sith Lightning when he can just as easy do it with his blade?

This is a classic Begging the Question fallacy. In order to accept the premise as being true, we must accept that the conclusion is true.

The only reason Mace Windu could do it with his lightsabre was because of Vaapad.

Actually, if we accept RotS novelisation Vaapad allowed Mace to become a Force 'super conductor' and chanell the Lightning back without having to match it equally pound for pound. A technique which obviously differs from how Yoda does it.

The movies and novelizations (to say nothing of the EU) are replete with references on battles being fought with force ability backing them up, always. To argue that maybe Dooku and Obi-Wan were just fencing and not using their force powers whatsoever while fighting (in particular, precognition etc) is simply desperation.

Yeah, I seem to recall something in AotC about some kind of 'Dark Side Shroud', limiting their ability to 'use the Force' ... I don't know, maybe it means something maybe it doesn't. What do you think?

I don't see you coming up with a unit for your argument from force push.

My second post in this thread;

Yes, I bloody well can. You see, unlike the ridiculous round of rock-paper-scissors some people seem to be playing in this thread, this scene - while not 'number' quantifiable - allows us to quantify their relative raw Force power at that point in time.

I conceeded this at the begining. The difference between your and mine points is quite simple. This scene in RotS can only be used to measure Force power and nothing else. This is because of the shocking amazing fact that this is the only variable in this scene.

Something which simply can not be stated as being true when analysing duel scenes, since a character's obvious skill with a blade (or other factors) obviously add more variables to the equation.

For example; who is more powerful, Obi-Wan or Darth Maul?

No. If Obi-Wan had beaten Anakin straight up that would be good evidence that at the time, Obi-Wan was better. He wasn't.

Actually the word you're looking for is 'powerful' and not 'better'. Since by any reasonable standard of analysis the one combatant that walks away from a fight with all limbs still attached is - by default - better then the crispy boy.

And that is what we are discussing.

Where do you get that claim from?

That concentration, emotional disposition and mental discipline are essential variables in being able to wield the Force? What are you nuts? Let me see ... how did one realy intelligent guy once phrase it, oh yes;

'The movies and novelizations (to say nothing of the EU) are replete with references on concentration, emotional disposition and mental discipline are essential variables in being able to wield the Force. To argue that this is not true is simply desperation.'

Erm- huh? He's a Jedi. He doesn't need to go anywhere.

He's a Jedi on board the Empire's ultimate weapon. Even if he didn't know that Vader wasn't onboard, he's gotta be expecting him, or at the very least Dark Side Adepts, Inquisitors, Jedi Hunters etc. Concealing himself within the Force would be the very first thing he would think to do.

Obi-Wan didn't "stalk' Dooku, he spied on their meeting- and was, incidentally, caught. In any event, though it's not conclusive as to their relative power, it is good evidence.

Obi-Wan was only caught after he transmitted and reported back to base (or Anakin). Gee, think the two are linked? And yes, Obi-Wan 'spied' on Darth Tyranus, and unlike issues boy who was hiding around a corner, Obi-Wan was in a clear line of sight, and had to also avoid any and all security.

And what's Obi-Wan's excuse on the Death Star?.

And what's Vader's excuse on Mustafar? Obi-Wan was in Superman pose before issues boy was even aware!

Is there even such a fallacy?

Sure why not? ... I think the point is that pointing out all the different ways you can say 'Anakin' doesn't in any way shape or form affect my arguement.

A. If Obi-Wan was evenly matched with Anakin, he wouldn't have resorted to constant retreat in their duel.

Why? Evenly matched in power, doesn't essentially equate to a static fight. Anakin had the advantages of youth, reach and obvious physical strength. Just like we wouldn't expect Yoda to try and stand still and fight. Or are you going to suggest that him jumping around like a monkey on crack means that he is weaker than all his opponents?

B. Vader's stormtroopers blocked off his escape to the Falcon, nothing more. A weaker fighter can always stave off defeat by merely retreating, that doesn't say anything about the other guy.

True. But my point was that Vader couldn't have put Obi-Wan away without his posse to be there, so how exactly have you addressed that?

He did a little twirly spin once, so what?

And, IIRC, Vader hip and shouldered him once ... 'so what?'

Anakin and Obi-Wan constantly did that in their duel on Mustafar, to the point of absurdity, does that mean they were both idiots for not taking advantage of it? Or could they see what could happen next thanks to their precognition and decide it was better to wait?

So what are you saying? Vader chose to not strike down Obi-Wan when his back was turned on the Death Star?

Apples and oranges. Obi-Wan wasn't "fucking around" in his fight with Vader. He gave up at the end, nothing more.

Bzzt. Wrong. It proves that time is an arbitrary and shitty factor to determine anything when one character just goes (in the immortal words of Martin & Malloy); nah!

[need4spd]

1. Mace Windu - controversial as this selection might be as #1 I have to say that upon reflection of what we have seen in the films Mace impresses the hell out of me. Fact is he defeated Palpatine fair and square - a feat Yoda could not achieve and Yoda went in there ready and expecting what he got, Mace on the other hand was handed quite a nasty surprise when he tried to arrest Palpatine and reacted well, adjusting and eventually overcoming the odds. Yoda was holding on for dear life by the end of his duel with Palpatine and he knew what he was facing.

As a counterpoint one could argue that Mace was highly specialized in taking on Sith with his unique Jedi Lightsaber Form but that is debateable.

Mace was also the first Jedi to pierce the veil of the dark side and sense the direct threat to the Jedi, a feat Yoda had tried since AOTC and failed.

Mace was considered the most 'powerful' of the Jedi while Yoda was always considered the 'wisest' (Anakin in AOTC) I think that is a clear dilineation of who has the offensive edge in the order and who is the smartest/wisest from a Jedi's POV not just a layman.

Mace's solo episode in The Clone Wars cartoon while considered by many to be wank shows more of his offensive capabilities.

Again in the Clone wars cartoons Mace's actions during the Attack on Coruscant showed him doing some pretty nifty things like taking out whole squadrons of fighters and effortlessly slicing his way through hordes of battle droids as well as forcing Grevious to retreat and injuring him.

I haven't read any of his EU exploits so I'm not sure how he stacks up in that arena but I stand by my decision. When it comes to raw offensive power I have to give this one to Mace. Wanna train a Jedi, find the truth of a matter or simply need a shoulder to cry on you go to Yoda. Wanna whoop some ass - Mace is his name.


2. Palpatine - Veil of the Darkside that kept the entire Jedi order in the dark for over 10 years, defeating three Jedi Masters effortlessly in a matter of moments, defeating Yoda, effortlessly defeating the Chosen One's son, holding his own against the greatest Jedi lightsaber duelist for some time and I take Vader's inaction for over 20 years as a tacit admission that Vader couldn't take him - he was planning to kill him as Anakin right after Mustafar yet 20 years later Vader knew he couldn't take Palpatine without help.

Palpatine is da man. Let us not venture into Wankatine, we're talking Palpy until he takes the plunge into the Deathstar's core. If not for Mace's handing him his ass he would have definately vaulted to the top spot.

3. Anakin - WHOA. You say. How is that possible? Anakin was hardly as powerful as Yoda. Well let me posit these examples and tell me what you think.

Anakin fought THE Soresu master to a standstill and it was only his impatience that led to his defeat and not his lack of power or form. Obi Wan was clearly pressed throughout that duel to his limit while Anakin dominiated throughout without flagging in endurance or resolve. Anakin would have defeated Obi Wan in time if not for some bad judgment on his part.

Anakin defeated several Jedi Knights and Masters at once - a feat only replicated by Palpatine in his office - in the Jedi temple including the Jedi tasked with teaching the others how to duel.

Anakin felt that he could destroy Palpatine after Mustafar - hyperbole I know but outside sources support this claim such as Lucas' commentary, alternate video game endings (Ep III game for PSII) and Palaptine's own assertion to Yoda that Anakin woudl be more powerful than either of them.

Anakin's defeat of Count Dooku - considered one of the finest duelist in the Order and powerful enough to hold off Yoda indefinately- fair and square by raw power and talent without turning to the dark side was a clear indication that he was near the top of the order at the beggining of ROTS and by Mustafar he feels he is far more powerful than even that. (Anakin's speech to Padme about his new powers)


4. Yoda Didn't think I'd see the old Jedi Master this far down on the list but when one really looks at offensive feats Yoda seems to fall a little short. He is defeated by Palpatine fair and square even when he goes in there with the advantage of surprise and knowing his enemy.

Yoda also does not seem to stack up well to Palpatine's apprentice Dooku. One gets the sense from the duel on Geonosis that Yoda was really pushing it in that duel and that in terms of force powers they were fairly evenly matched and only in raw swordsman ship does he drive Dooku back. Even then not a clean win for Yoda, it probably would have taken more time to take Dooku and a slip of fate may have turned that duel in Dooku's favor at any time. I didn't get the sense that Yoda was clearly dominant in that duel as Anakin was to Obi Wan in Mustafar.

When it comes to wisdom and force abilties not directly linked to offense Yoda would be #2 on this list (Palpy at #1) but he takes a tumble in the fighting arena.


5. Count Dooku - Dooku has all the requistotes of a Sith lord (not just an apprentice.) he's got the lightning (a feat Maul did not possess in TPM) the manipulative finesse (Clone War) and the dueling ability: He easily defeats a Jedi Master and his powerful apprentice in a matter of minutes, holds off one of the most powerful Jedi in the Order after engaging the other two. Later on once again easily defeats Obi Wan Kenobi (THE Soretsu master) and is only defeated by a clearly more powerful Anakin Skywalker who is coming into his own power wise. As a counterpoint to Anakin's strength Dooklu easily handed Asaj Ventres her ass and she gave Anakin trouble throughout the Clone Wars cartoons. Dooku also is routinely engaged by more than one oppoenent showing his defensive and offensive strength cannot simply be overcome with numbers.


6. Obi Wan - THE Sorestu master confirmed by Mace Windu himself in the ROTS novelization he clearly is the Rocky Balboa of the Jedi Knights, refusing to admit when he is outmatched and hanging on through guts and courage through some grueling battles. Yes he is handly defeated by Dooku but this could be explained by a fault of his style (soretsu may not be able to counter the precision of Form II as well as other forms as Shien obviously does) Since he holds his on against Anakin who is clearly more powerful than Dooku and in fact defeates Anakin through guile rather than power this may be true and a reason for such a poor showing - twice - against Dooku.

Obi Wan also defeats Darth Maul - once again through guile rather than brute force. But it cannot be denied that Obi Wan is a heavy hitter of his own in the order for note his defeat of Greavious in rather short order.


7. Luke Skywalker - Finally Luke makes an appearance in this list - it also shows how far he has to go by ROTJ that he is hardly on the same level as the masters and knights that came before him.

Luke's feats in ROTJ show that he has matured greatly from his disastrous outing in ESB. Luke is cearly more comfrotable with his saber than a blaster now (note in ESB he carries both and tends to go for his blaster before his saber throughout the film) and takes up blaster bolt deflection and multiple oppoenents including Boba Fett during his battle with Jabba.

He defeats the Rancor with his bare hands (sort of)

On the Deathstar he is clearly more powerful than on Bespin and is holding his own against his father who toyed with him throughout most of the duel on Bespin. It should be noted however that Palpatine is clearly suggesting to us that Luke is channelling the darkside throughout some of that duel when he encourages him (Good, use your aggressive feelings boy) whether this is a ploy by Palpatine to confuse Luke or a statement of fact that Luke is indeed channeling the dark side is up for grabs.

Luke however is clearly in a dark side rage when he does finally defeat his father so one can argue that Luke's offensive punch is sort of diluted by the fact that he has to turn to the darkside to become that powerful so is it really fair to use the end of the duel with Vader as a benchmark? Who can say? In the end however it is obvious Luke is more powerful than Vader throughout the duel and even Vader's internal monolugue confirms this in the ROTJ novelization when he realizes that Luke can defeat him and the thought had never occured to him before. This is all before the Dark side rage attack.

8. Darth Vader - this may seem controversial as well this far down on the list but frankly all we ever see Vader do is take on his son who is a half trained Jedi and defeat a much older and diminshed Obi Wan who in the end simply gives up anyway after holding off Vader for some time. Lucas the man who created and evisioned the character describes him as a cripple in a walking iron lung who is a shadow of his former self. Vader is powerful in other ways but when it comes to offense dueling wise I just don't see him holding off the more acrobatic members at the top of this list or have the ability to to counter Dooku's precision much less his lightening. How far he has fallen after Mustafar.

9. Darth Maul - a fanboy favorite but woefully inadequate compared to what else we've seen in the films and on this list. IMO Maul was a representation of what you could do purely physically with the Force in terms of speed, jumping, strength.

He was over specialized in physically overcoming his opponents but in a straight up match against a Jedi that could bring all the powers of the Force to the table like a Yoda or a Windu or anakin Maul would go down hard and fast. It was only the fact that Qui Gon and Obi Wan wanted to try and capture him and Qui Gon's distractions with trying to keep Obi Wan alive throghout that duel that allowed Maul to be as successful as he was. It also helped that Qui Gon was trapped in a location that limited his Ataru form as Obi Wan noted in Labyrinth of Evil that helped Maul overcome the older more experienced master (and Qui Gon was indeed past his prime physically as he himself noted in TPM novelization)

10. Qui Gon Jinn - I'm sure that in his prime he was a powerufl Jedi in his own right but clearly in comparison to some of the others on this list Qui Gon could be found lacking in the physical dept. His form though calling for acrobatics and such he did not engage in much of that (as opposed to Obi Wan in TPM who bounced around like a flea on crack) and in his first duel with Maul on Tatooine he was clearly winded and exhausted by the effort.

The EU states that he regualrly dueled with Mace but by TPM he was simply in decline as Obi Wan was by ANH.

I apologize for the length.

I agree 100%. Obi wan i bet could give yoda a good run for his money though.

[Aquatain]

Crown wrote.

Yoda never retaliated at Dooku even once (beyond reflecting Dooku's own lightning back at him), so no I'm not implying that.

Yoda asorbed the lightning and did indeed fire lightning back at Dooku who deflects it, Yoda could just asorb it if he feels like it..as demonstratet the second time Dooku fires lightning at him.