Stormtrooper Loyalty Hypothesis

[Stravo]

I was reading though a Wikipedia Artcle on Clonetroopers and there was a theory there that I found rather clever. Despite the EU and its assertions that there was a nasty destructive period of civil war within the Empire some purists point to the ending of ROTJ to show a relatively peaceful transition from Empire to New Republic.

One theory used to supports this view is that the Stormtroopers being hardwired to obey whomever was in authority now had to obey the Alliance as they moved quickly to assume authority on Coruscant (through the Senators who quickly came back into power with the vacuum left after Palpatine's death) hence the celebrations on Coruscant and elsewhere with little response from the Empire to shut it down.

Now I know there are plenty of reasons why this hypothesis doesn't work but I'm intrested to hear from the EU experts here why this is a dumb concept.

[Noble Ire]

One theory used to supports this view is that the Stormtroopers being hardwired to obey whomever was in authority now had to obey the Alliance as they moved quickly to assume authority on Coruscant (through the Senators who quickly came back into power with the vacuum left after Palpatine's death) hence the celebrations on Coruscant and elsewhere with little response from the Empire to shut it down.

It took the Alliance several years to take Coruscant. No dice.

Now I know there are plenty of reasons why this hypothesis doesn't work but I'm intrested to hear from the EU experts here why this is a dumb concept.

The very existance of the Caridan stormtrooper academy precludes this possibility. Certainly, there were a lot of clones in the corps, and probably a lot of them were mentally programmed from loyalty, but there were also plenty of recruits who were not dramatically brainwashed (I seem to recall that some of those in the Allaince ranks were, in fact, defected stormtroopers).

[NecronLord]

You may be thinking of Commander Katarn, who went to Cardia, and trained as a stormtrooper, but wasn't brainwashed. However, he was trained as an officer, not a grunt. The Jedi Academy books seem to infer that Cardia does indeed use brainwashing on its basic troopers - Kyp Durron's brother, for example, couldn't remember his childhood.

I used an assumption like this in the B5/SW fanfic I had where Palpatine was forced to resign. The stormtroopers were then immediately given orders by the new leadership to change sides.

However, in the canon, it's likely that most warlords were able to convince their troops of the illegitimacy of the Alliance government.

[Tiriol]

One theory used to supports this view is that the Stormtroopers being hardwired to obey whomever was in authority now had to obey the Alliance as they moved quickly to assume authority on Coruscant (through the Senators who quickly came back into power with the vacuum left after Palpatine's death) hence the celebrations on Coruscant and elsewhere with little response from the Empire to shut it down.

Alliance could not quickly take over Coruscant and any Senators still hanging around there would be Imperial-minded (at least enough Imperial-minded not to warrant Palpatine's suspicions or meeting with ISB or COMPNOR), which would just ensure that the Empire would continue with a new leadership at helm. Perhaps they could just proclaim that the evil old wicked tyrant is dead, all hail freedom, we will reform the Empire etc. and still basically continue along the same path as Palpatine - they wouldn't want to give away their new-found power to a bunch of rebels, terrorists and guerillas.

And in any case, the Emperor had his advisors and grand admirals, who would quickly put a stop to any Senatorial takeover.

The theory is indeed flawed.

[Adrian Laguna]

You may be thinking of Commander Katarn, who went to Cardia, and trained as a stormtrooper, but wasn't brainwashed. However, he was trained as an officer, not a grunt. The Jedi Academy books seem to infer that Cardia does indeed use brainwashing on its basic troopers - Kyp Durron's brother, for example, couldn't remember his childhood.

The fact that the officers aren't brainwashed might render the grunt brainwashing moot. If grunts obey their superiors without question, wouldn't that mean that if they would follow their officers when they picked sides during the Galactic Civil War: Part 2?

[NecronLord]

It's possible that the thinking by ANH is that brainwashing officers is counterproductive, and that they work best with open minds.

[Adrian Laguna]

It's possible that the thinking by ANH is that brainwashing officers is counterproductive, and that they work best with open minds.

No, what I meant is that the fact that officers aren't brainwashed is another thing that kills the purist's hypothesis reguarding peacefull transition to NR.

[NecronLord]

No, what I meant is that the fact that officers aren't brainwashed is another thing that kills the purist's hypothesis reguarding peacefull transition to NR.

Don't mind, I'm just speculating a bit. It's not really necessery to use that as an argument. It just didn't happen that way, after all.

[Illuminatus Primus]

The Alliance didn't simply assume control of Coruscant immediately, and nothing in ROTJ suggests such. What we see are civilian riots, nothing about bonafide regime change and occupation - the entire Rebel alliance was at Endor and were still there for quite awhile.

[nightmare]

Now I know there are plenty of reasons why this hypothesis doesn't work but I'm intrested to hear from the EU experts here why this is a dumb concept.

Going by the movies alone, I would say it's pretty obvious that Palpatine means to stay on the throne forever, and that the clonetroopers - precursors to the stormtroopers, are if anything hardwired to obey him alone, though they can be on loan (though the EU actually suggests otherwise here, its not in the movies). As for EU reasons, there's any amount of arguments, take your pick.

[Cos Dashit]

The Alliance didn't simply assume control of Coruscant immediately, and nothing in ROTJ suggests such. What we see are civilian riots, nothing about bonafide regime change and occupation - the entire Rebel alliance was at Endor and were still there for quite awhile.

At the end of RotJ, I have a distinct memory of watching a statue being pulled down and falling. This could possibly indicate a regime change.

[Noble Ire]

The Alliance didn't simply assume control of Coruscant immediately, and nothing in ROTJ suggests such. What we see are civilian riots, nothing about bonafide regime change and occupation - the entire Rebel alliance was at Endor and were still there for quite awhile.

At the end of RotJ, I have a distinct memory of watching a statue being pulled down and falling. This could possibly indicate a regime change.

Unless that scene was 3-4 years in the future after ROTJ, it was a simple riot. The Empire had control of the planet for several more years, and only lost it after all of its support worlds were taken or abandoned. Actually, one of the EU books (an X-Wing, I think) mentions Ysanne Isard ording mass executions to put down that very riot.

[Publius]

The Alliance didn't simply assume control of Coruscant immediately, and nothing in ROTJ suggests such. What we see are civilian riots, nothing about bonafide regime change and occupation - the entire Rebel alliance was at Endor and were still there for quite awhile.

At the end of RotJ, I have a distinct memory of watching a statue being pulled down and falling. This could possibly indicate a regime change.

Or it could be an indication that rioters pulled down a statue. Be careful not to confuse symbolic gestures with actual accomplishments.

[consequences]

At the end of RotJ, I have a distinct memory of watching a statue being pulled down and falling. This could possibly indicate a regime change.

It could also indicate a bunch of morons who don't understand physics who got squished three seconds later.

Besides, we have an account from Iron Fist that tells about how the stormies came in and shot everyone up five minutes later. Since its not contradicted by anything in the movies, it stands.

[CDiehl]

a relatively peaceful transition from Empire to New Republic.

What peaceful transition? The Empire and everything that goes with it was still around, including fleets of ships out the ass. The Rebellion still doesn't have the resources to challenge the Empire on anything beyond a local level. The Emperor and his number 1 hatchetman were gone, but there was no reason to believe the Empire would just evaporate after Palpatine and Vader died, let alone that they'd all suddenly bow down to the Rebels like the Wicked Witch's guards in The Wizard of Oz. If the Stormtroopers or anyone else in the military was programmed to be loyal to anything, it would be to the Emperor personally or to the institution of the Empire in general. Why would Palpatine have his military designed to rebel against him at the first sign he's not totally in charge? He'd have to be an idiot to do that.

[Cos Dashit]

The Emperor and his number 1 hatchetman were gone, but there was no reason to believe the Empire would just evaporate after Palpatine and Vader died,

It was not only Palpatine and Vader, several high-ranking Imperials died during the BoY and the BoE.

Other than that, though, I agree. The Empire still had so many more ships and military prowess than the Rebellion.

[CDiehl]

I never said it was just them who died. My point is that their deaths didn't automatically mean the Empire would fall apart or its personnel would all suddenly change sides to support the Rebellion. The problem the Empire ran into was that a lot of its leaders wanted to continue the Empire with themselves in the Emperor's place instead of uniting, picking one or a few leaders to run things, and ensuring they'd all have what they had before.

[Kurgan]

The Alliance bribed one of Palpatine's clones to issue the order, duh!

"TK-422, the time has come, execute order 1138."
"It will be done my lord!"

All across the galaxy, non-clone troopers and officers were shot or forced to surrender by the troops under their command. Only this time kick butt good guy music plays instead of the sad music. Anybody left is mopped up. And don't expect help from the Senators, Palpatine fired them all 4 years ago, remember?

Rebels 4 teh win. pwn3d!

[Surlethe]

The Emperor and his number 1 hatchetman were gone, but there was no reason to believe the Empire would just evaporate after Palpatine and Vader died,

It was not only Palpatine and Vader, several high-ranking Imperials died during the BoY and the BoE.

To be fair, how many high-ranking Imperials are there in a bureaucracy which runs an entire galaxy? There are certainly still many, many high-ranking Imperial officers in the galaxy after Endor. In fact, one might make a case that such a system would have to fly apart anyway, as internal politics would lose the authority above which kept them toothless.