Sabre Fencer on sw.com

[Darth Cronos the Proud]

Ghetto Edit: The one sentence in parenthases is supposed to read "a Force user wouldn't even need to resort to something like that when fighting someone who couldn't augment their strength with the Force, they'd kill them outright." Sorry guys, shitty pre-post editing.

[Surlethe]

If you bring your blade in a heavy, arching swing, you're giving your arms momentum, and fueling the strength with the Force will only increase that momentum. I'm not talking about simply bouncing the blade back; I'm talking about trying to force the opponent's blade back on himself. If you're some wuss with a lightsabre, and you're up against someone who takes a broad swing, even if you catch the blow on your blade instead of a limb, the momentum of the swing is apt to push your blade back into you.

But the point I'm trying to make is that with Force-assisted strength on both sides (a Force user wouldn't even need to resort to something like that, he/she would just kill any outright who couldn't augment their strength with the Force) the likelyhood of pushing the lightsabre blade back onto your opponents face/neck/upper body is slim (As far as I can see it never happened in the movies and I do not remember it ever happening in the EU).

That doesn't make it any less of a threat, which is what I'm getting at. A Jedi could simply use the technique reflexively as a threat, much as a chess player would attack a pawn reflexively to gain a tempo. He doesn't actually expect to get a pawn, but the threat forces his opponent to respond.

As far as I can tell, your reasoning that using medieval broadsword style fighting with lightsabres can make that happen is the only logical one, but doing so only gives you a small chance of having your opponents blade kill or wound him/her, while leaving youself open for quick moves from your opponent that can kill you, which doesn't seem too smart for people who have been trained in lightsabre combat from an early age (note that in AotC children who looked like they were six or seven were already being introducted to deflecting blaster bolts using the 'sabre).

I'm simply trying to rationalize the heavy broadsword-style fighting we actually see -- e.g., Mace Windu using his 'sabre like a club.

[Sidewinder]

Incidentally, this would also explain why Jedi tend to use a two-handed grip instead of one: the weakest point is where the Jedi grasps the 'sabre, so to transfer momentum from the arms into the strike, they need to have a strong contact between the arms and the weapon.

I remember reading a fencing manual-- I'll have to try to find another copy, as I'm not a fencer myself-- describing a move where a fencer uses the strong part of his blade-- near the handle-- to hit the weak part of his opponent's blade-- near to tip-- to knock it aside, creating an opening for a follow-up attack. Do you think such a move is impractical for lightsaber combat?

[CDiehl]

I believe you're describing a riposte. The idea with this move is that a person trying to push another's weapon has more leverage when the weapon is near the handle of his own weapon than near the point. However, I was taught when I get into that sort of situation, to pull my weapon off my opponent's and return to my guard position, because my opponent can slide his weapon down mine and strike me.

[Kurgan]

I've read complaints from some of the guys trying to recreate the European sword forms about how unrealistic the fights are. Basically, any swordfighter you've seen in a movie would be dead in a few seconds against a true swordsman. Movement has to be controlled, or you're just giving your opponent an opening to kill you. Heck, half the time you can see they're attacking each other's weapons instead of attacking each other.

Well I'm sure that's true, but not necessarily because of their fake styles or something, but rather because their moves in the movies are fully choreographed, and a "real fight" would not be, plus they are using light weight aluminum props, rather than something with real weight and strength. Sword fighting stuntmen get hurt all the time, but not nearly as grievously as they would be if they used real swords (typically "real" swords if they are ever used, are only for closeups or somebody attacking an inanimate object, and even then they're not usually sharpened to battle readiness).

Even with the modern reenactment groups like those guys who emphasize broadsword use and all that stuff, there's still so much technique that is lost because we don't fight to the death with these things anymore. If lives are at stake it changes everything. We just have interpretations of records from the past at how it was once done. The psychology of the fight dynamic is lost. Even in competitions, at least I've heard this is true of saber fencing, contestants are a lot more likely to sacrifice their bodies in order to score the quick win, even though in real life they would be suicidal to do so in many cases. But then that's what fantasy movies are about, they show us scenarios we will likely never see and can only imagine. None of us will have to navigate an asteroid field under enemy fire, so we have little to compare it to when we go to the movies, ditto with a sword fight to the death. Sure we can make some reasonable assumptions, but there's always going to be a fudge factor. And while competative non-lethal sword contests are a nice area of comparison, they aren't the end-all be all (even moreso than comparing say, real street fighting to martial arts tournaments at your karate dojo).

[Elheru Aran]

I believe you're describing a riposte. The idea with this move is that a person trying to push another's weapon has more leverage when the weapon is near the handle of his own weapon than near the point. However, I was taught when I get into that sort of situation, to pull my weapon off my opponent's and return to my guard position, because my opponent can slide his weapon down mine and strike me.

Lightsabres apparently can't do that; they seem to 'stick', so to speak, when in contact. Look at all the movies; in no instance was a lightsabre ever slid down the blade of another. They touch, but they don't slide up or down. So it's rather different from fighting with metal blades.

[Turin]

That's something I've been thinking about for a while: why does lightsabre combat seem to be like broadswordfighting when it could simply use the kiss of the blade to bring death? I reason it's because lightsabres have no edges: they're essentially glowing sticks which burn everything they touch. Hence, the reverse side is a threat to the Jedi who is wielding the 'sabre, and heavy strokes threaten to bludgeon the Jedi's blade back into himself.

Sorry to come in late on this point, but there's a good bit of underhand "lifting" blows used in ESB and ROTJ that seem to reinforce this point (that is, blows that come from bringing the blade back up to guard from an extended position... I don't know the proper name for this). Luke looses his hand, IIRC, to an underhand blow from Vader, and I think Dooku may have lost his arms in the same fashion.

[Kurgan]

Lightsabres apparently can't do that; they seem to 'stick', so to speak, when in contact. Look at all the movies; in no instance was a lightsabre ever slid down the blade of another. They touch, but they don't slide up or down. So it's rather different from fighting with metal blades.

Yes they do, Obi-Wan does it to Grievous at least once, if not twice in their battle, resulting in cut-off hands.

[Kurgan]

That's something I've been thinking about for a while: why does lightsabre combat seem to be like broadswordfighting when it could simply use the kiss of the blade to bring death? I reason it's because lightsabres have no edges: they're essentially glowing sticks which burn everything they touch. Hence, the reverse side is a threat to the Jedi who is wielding the 'sabre, and heavy strokes threaten to bludgeon the Jedi's blade back into himself.

Sorry to come in late on this point, but there's a good bit of underhand "lifting" blows used in ESB and ROTJ that seem to reinforce this point (that is, blows that come from bringing the blade back up to guard from an extended position... I don't know the proper name for this). Luke looses his hand, IIRC, to an underhand blow from Vader, and I think Dooku may have lost his arms in the same fashion.

Somebody should do a slow-mo gif animation or frame by frame post of it, but I believe in that scene Anakin actually holds Dooku's arms from the side with his free hand and lifts his blade up from below to slice off his opponent's wrists.

[Cykeisme]

I believe you're describing a riposte. The idea with this move is that a person trying to push another's weapon has more leverage when the weapon is near the handle of his own weapon than near the point. However, I was taught when I get into that sort of situation, to pull my weapon off my opponent's and return to my guard position, because my opponent can slide his weapon down mine and strike me.

Lightsabres apparently can't do that; they seem to 'stick', so to speak, when in contact. There seems to be great resistance against lightsaber blades sliding up and down against each other. So it is rather different from fighting with metal blades.

I wanted to bring this up on a thread of its own a while back, but I think it's obvious enough that it requires no discussion.

This property of lightsaber blade-to-blade interaction is especially obvious in Yoda's two duels in the movies. There are several instances in which a Sith Lord has attempted to thrust their lightsaber at him, and he stopped it by "sticking" his green blade against the side of his adversary's, even as it was pointed straight at him. He typically even pushes his opponent's blade backward and away.

A lot of the defensive moves we see in the various duels rely on this lightsaber blade behaviour as well.

Yes they do, Obi-Wan does it to Grievous at least once, if not twice in their battle, resulting in cut-off hands.

You're right, I checked this. They slide, when the second hand is cut off. Their blades make contact, but apparently with not enough pressure for Obi-Wan's to slide a couple of inches. However, their blades break contact before the majority of the movement (the camera starts to tilt down considerably to focus on Grievous' arm) is made before intersecting the cyborg's wrist.

[Elheru Aran]

Yes they do, Obi-Wan does it to Grievous at least once, if not twice in their battle, resulting in cut-off hands.

You're right, I checked this. They slide, when the second hand is cut off. Their blades make contact, but apparently with not enough pressure for Obi-Wan's to slide a couple of inches. However, their blades break contact before the majority of the movement (the camera starts to tilt down considerably to focus on Grievous' arm) is made before intersecting the cyborg's wrist.

Might it be possible that in this case Kenobi had his blade close enough to Grievous' that the light from the blades merged together, preventing us from seeing a separation, but with no actual or very light physical contact between the blades?

Either that, or he only touched Grievous' blade for less than a second; a quick tap to nudge it out of the way and then a chop down to remove the hand...

I'll have to review that scene again, looks like.

[Kurgan]

Yes they do, Obi-Wan does it to Grievous at least once, if not twice in their battle, resulting in cut-off hands.

You're right, I checked this. They slide, when the second hand is cut off. Their blades make contact, but apparently with not enough pressure for Obi-Wan's to slide a couple of inches. However, their blades break contact before the majority of the movement (the camera starts to tilt down considerably to focus on Grievous' arm) is made before intersecting the cyborg's wrist.

Might it be possible that in this case Kenobi had his blade close enough to Grievous' that the light from the blades merged together, preventing us from seeing a separation, but with no actual or very light physical contact between the blades?

Either that, or he only touched Grievous' blade for less than a second; a quick tap to nudge it out of the way and then a chop down to remove the hand...

I'll have to review that scene again, looks like.

Maybe the "sticking" is some kind of force powered thing, and not a natural physical property of the blades interacting? Since Grievous has no force ability, maybe it was easier to do to him?

[Mobiboros]

As someone who studies swordfighting (Mainly rapier), much of the lightsaber combat is abysmal swordwork. Especially in the PT movies where they tend to spin the blade like a fan, turns their backs to opponents, make wild-wide swings, etc...
The Vader-Kenobi fight isn't as bad as some, but it's still not 'good'. And Darths footwork is really not even close to good western fencing. If you want a good western sabre fencer, Count Dooku. How the guy missed that Christopher Lee is a trained sabre fencer and even had a sabre-grip lightsabre is beyond me. His back and forth movements, his types of parries and attacks. All modern sabre moves.

I remember reading a fencing manual-- I'll have to try to find another copy, as I'm not a fencer myself-- describing a move where a fencer uses the strong part of his blade-- near the handle-- to hit the weak part of his opponent's blade-- near to tip-- to knock it aside, creating an opening for a follow-up attack. Do you think such a move is impractical for lightsaber combat?

That's a proper beat-parry (A riposte is an immediate attack after you parry an opponents attack). Where you make an opening and attack. The reason is you have more control of the blade the closer to your hand you get because you can apply more of your strength without the blade acting as a level. Which is why you parry the opponents tip with the portion of your blade closest to your hand.

It probably would work very well with a lightsabre actually. In fact probably better than with real swords because you don't have the weight of the opponents blade to content with.

[Crazedwraith]

A. How the guy missed that Christopher Lee is a trained sabre fencer and even had a sabre-grip lightsabre is beyond me. His back and forth movements, his types of parries and attacks. All modern sabre moves.

Christopher Lee didn't do any of that. Seeeing a he's 80 odd years old. A stunt man did it and they pasted Lee's head over the top.

[Cykeisme]

A. How the guy missed that Christopher Lee is a trained sabre fencer and even had a sabre-grip lightsabre is beyond me. His back and forth movements, his types of parries and attacks. All modern sabre moves.

Christopher Lee didn't do any of that. Seeeing a he's 80 odd years old. A stunt man did it and they pasted Lee's head over the top.

IIRC he did AotC. It's RotS that had CGI-headed stuntmen and pure-CGI Dookus. Need confirmation.

[Old Plympto]

A. How the guy missed that Christopher Lee is a trained sabre fencer and even had a sabre-grip lightsabre is beyond me. His back and forth movements, his types of parries and attacks. All modern sabre moves.

Christopher Lee didn't do any of that. Seeeing a he's 80 odd years old. A stunt man did it and they pasted Lee's head over the top.

IIRC he did AotC. It's RotS that had CGI-headed stuntmen and pure-CGI Dookus. Need confirmation.

Nay. IIRC from the DVD commentaries, AOTC too was filmed with stuntmen with Christopher Lee's head digitally inserted. The close up shots are him though, the ones which doesn't require him to move around a lot.

[Mobiboros]

Christopher Lee didn't do any of that. Seeeing a he's 80 odd years old. A stunt man did it and they pasted Lee's head over the top.

Then the guy they got to do the body double also knows how to fence sabre. Either way, the character of Count Dooku shows sabre fencing skills whereas Vader in Ep IV seems more Kendo than fencing.