Nature Cooked Data for Wiki-Britannica Comparison

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Nature Cooked Data for Wiki-Britannica Comparison

Post by Edi »

The Register wrote:Nature mag cooked Wikipedia study
Britannica hits back at junk science

By Andrew Orlowski in San Francisco
Published Thursday 23rd March 2006 03:33 GMT

Nature magazine has some tough questions to answer after it let its Wikipedia fetish get the better of its responsibilities to reporting science. The Encyclopedia Britannica has published a devastating response to Nature's December comparison of Wikipedia and Britannica, and accuses the journal of misrepresenting its own evidence.

Where the evidence didn't fit, says Britannica, Nature's news team just made it up. Britannica has called on the journal to repudiate the report, which was put together by its news team.

Independent experts were sent 50 unattributed articles from both Wikipedia and Britannica, and the journal claimed that Britannica turned up 123 "errors" to Wikipedia's 162.

But Nature sent only misleading fragments of some Britannica articles to the reviewers, sent extracts of the children's version and Britannica's "book of the year" to others, and in one case, simply stitched together bits from different articles and inserted its own material, passing it off as a single Britannica entry.

Nice "Mash-Up" - but bad science.

"Almost everything about the journal's investigation, from the criteria for identifying inaccuracies to the discrepancy between the article text and its headline, was wrong and misleading," says Britannica.

"Dozens of inaccuracies attributed to the Britannica were not inaccuracies at all, and a number of the articles Nature examined were not even in the Encyclopedia Britannica. The study was so poorly carried out and its findings so error-laden that it was completely without merit."

In one case, for example. Nature's peer reviewer was sent only the 350 word introduction to a 6,000 word Britannica article on lipids - which was criticized for containing omissions.

A pattern also emerges which raises questions about the choice of the domain experts picked by Nature's journalists.

Several got their facts wrong, and in many other cases, simply offered differences of opinion.

"Dozens of the so-called inaccuracies they attributed to us were nothing of the kind; they were the result of reviewers expressing opinions that differed from ours about what should be included in an encyclopedia article. In these cases Britannica's coverage was actually sound."

Nature only published a summary of the errors its experts found some time after the initial story, and has yet to disclose all the reviewer's notes.

So how could a respected science publication make such a grave series of errors?

Now is the time for all good men to come to the aid of the Wiki

When Nature published the news story in December, it followed weeks of bad publicity for Wikipedia, and was a gift for the project's beleaguered supporters.

In October, a co-founder had agreed that several entries were "horrific crap". A former newspaper editor and Kennedy aide John Siegenthaler Snr then wrote an article explaining how libellous modifications had lain unchecked for months. By early December, Wikipedia's Jimmy Wales was becoming a regular feature on CNN cable news, explaining away the site's deficiencies.

"Nature's investigation suggests that Britannica's advantage may not be great," wrote news editor Jim Giles.

Nature accompanied this favorable news report with a cheerful, spin-heavy editorial that owed more to an evangelical recruitment drive than it did a rational analysis of empirical evidence. It urged readers to "push forward the grand experiment that is Wikipedia."

(Former Britannica editor Robert McHenry dubbed Wikipedia the "Faith based encyclopedia", and the project certainly reflects the religious zeal of some of its keenest supporters. Regular Register readers will be familiar with the rhetoric. See "Wikipedia 'to make universities obsolete').

Hundreds of publications pounced on the Nature story, and echoed the spin that Wikipedia was as good as Britannica - downplaying or omitting to mention the quality gap. The press loves an upbeat story, and what can be more uplifting than the utopian idea that we're all experts - at whatever subject we choose?

The journal didn't, however, disclose the evidence for these conclusions until some days later, when journalists had retired for their annual Christmas holiday break.

And this evidence raised troubling questions, as Nicholas Carr noted last month. Many publications had assumed Nature's Wikipedia story was objectively reporting the work of scientists - Nature's staple - rather than a news report assembled by journalists pretending to be scientists.

And now we know it was anything but scientific.

Carr noted that Nature's reviewers considered trivial errors and serious mistakes as roughly equal.

So why did Nature risk its reputation in such a way?

Perhaps the clue lies not in the news report, but in the evangelism of the accompanying editorial. Nature's news and features editor Jim Giles, who was responsible for the Wikipedia story, has a fondness for "collective intelligence", one critical website suggets.

"As long as enough scientists with relevant knowledge played the market, the price should reflect the latest developments in climate research," Giles concluded of one market experiment in 2002.

The idea became notorious two years ago when DARPA, under retired Admiral Poindexter, invested in an online "terror casino" to predict world events such as assassinations. The public didn't quite share the sunny view of this utopian experiment, and Poindexter was invited to resign.

What do these seemingly disparate projects have in common? The idea that you can vote for the truth.

We thought it pretty odd, back in December, to discover a popular science journal recommending readers support less accurate information. It's even stranger to find this institution apparently violating fundamental principles of empiricism.

But these are strange times - and high summer for supporters of junk science. ®
No surprise that the Nature article was bullshit. It's good to see they were finally called on it. Hopefully they'll fire the editor and publicly flog the staff members involved in this fiasco. There's a link to Britannica's response in the Reg article, as well as links to related stories for those who are interested.

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Post by Darth Wong »

Wow, what a shock. Wikipedia is still shit.
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Post by Adrian Laguna »

Bad Nature, no cookie for you!
Seriously though, why the fuck did they resort to this kind of bullshit? They're supposed to be a dammed science magazine, and instead they're acting like your average fundie. Pointificating, lying, distorting evidence, misleading claims, dubious scientific procedures, lack of ethics, etc. All of them hallmarks of ID proponents and YECs. Yet here is Nature doing the same thing. Disgusting.


Wow, what a shock. Wikipedia is still shit.

I've said it before, Wikipedia is useful for two things:

1) Getting information on things when accuracy is not of great importance. When wanting to learn more about W40k, I used wiki. The reason is simple, I don't really care if turns-out that all W40k wiki articles are bullshit.

2) Occasionally, wikipedia articles have links to things that are actually useful. For example, while researching tissue engineering, I went to wikipedia, scrolled down to the bottom of the relevant article, and found a link to a report by the National Science Foundation. The wiki article itself I never bothered reading, because chances are that it's shit. In this case, I suspect it is just a summarization and paraphrasing of the NSF report.

That's about it, really. When doing real research, anybody who uses wikipedia articles instead of a real encyclopedia, is either very naive or very stupid.[/quote]
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Post by Darth Wong »

Brittanica should sue Nature Magazine. Seriously, it looks like their conduct went beyond sloppy journalism and right into outright fraudulent misrepresentation, and it was an attack upon the credibility of Brittanica itself: their financial lifeblood.
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Post by TheBlackCat »

So why is everybody so quick to trust Britannica over Nature? Nature claims their methods are sound, Brittanica does not. However, the only one here with an obvious conflict of interest in the results is Brittanica, who came out pretty poorly in the test and has a vested interest in improving their image. That doesn't mean they are wrong, and it doesn't mean the people at Nature didn't have some hidden bias we aren't aware of. It does mean you can't just throw out Nature's article purely because Britannica says you should. Who do you trust, one of the two the most respected peer-reviewed scientific journals in the world or one of the most respected Encyclopedias (not a rhetorical question).

There are some questions regarding the article. Either British news standards is completely different than US news standards or this sounds a lot more like an editorial than a serious news piece. Accusing Nature of having a "Wikipedia fetish" and undertaking a "evangelical recruitment drive" are things I don't typically hear in news articles that at least pretend to be impartial.
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Post by Zadius »

Disappointing.

What is Nature's motive here? To get more people to accept Wikipedia as a serious and authoritative body of knowledge? That's irresponsible to say the least.
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Post by brianeyci »

Nature is supposed to be the big name peer reviewed academic research journal, along with Science. That Nature would fuck around is astonishing, especially since in the academic world it's all about credibility and reputation and tarnishing your own reputation by publishing bullshit with Nature's reputation is unbelievable.

Yes, I agree with TheBlackCat, shouldn't be too quick to judge.

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Post by Darth Wong »

TheBlackCat wrote:So why is everybody so quick to trust Britannica over Nature? Nature claims their methods are sound, Brittanica does not. However, the only one here with an obvious conflict of interest in the results is Brittanica, who came out pretty poorly in the test and has a vested interest in improving their image.
The fact that anyone can vandalize a Wiki article at will isn't enough for you to wonder how its average accuracy can be as high as an encyclopedia which is professionally fact-checked? I wondered about that study when it was first published.
That doesn't mean they are wrong, and it doesn't mean the people at Nature didn't have some hidden bias we aren't aware of. It does mean you can't just throw out Nature's article purely because Britannica says you should. Who do you trust, one of the two the most respected peer-reviewed scientific journals in the world or one of the most respected Encyclopedias (not a rhetorical question).
Are you suggesting that this article was actually considered a real scientific research paper and subjected to the appropriate scrutiny? That would come as a shock to me.
There are some questions regarding the article. Either British news standards is completely different than US news standards or this sounds a lot more like an editorial than a serious news piece. Accusing Nature of having a "Wikipedia fetish" and undertaking a "evangelical recruitment drive" are things I don't typically hear in news articles that at least pretend to be impartial.
Yes, American journalists are very good at pretending to be impartial. Some would even say that they are fair and balanced.
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Post by Simplicius »

Where Wikipedia fails is the ability of articles to be edited without subjecting edits to some kind of authoritative scrutiny. Why not allow information to be submitted by anyone, but have each submission be vetted before the useful ones are compiled into an entry uneditable except by the management? Laziness and expense?

It comes across as one of those "noble in concept, flawed in execution" things.
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Post by brianeyci »

Okay I read the article and it's more like an editorial than a piece of research.

Even if I'd read it before reading Edi's news article, I would have called it on bullshit. If anybody wants a copy of the article and is a university student or has otherwise access to Nature, you can pm me for a pdf file to save you the trouble of finding it yourself.

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Post by Zadius »

Well, I honestly didn't find the Nature study that unbelievable at first. Articles about important topics do tend to be well guarded against vandalism because there are so many people who have those articles on their 'watchlist' and are alerted whenever the article is edited. Obscure topics, however, are more susceptible, but I figured the articles Nature looked at probably wouldn't fall into that category.

Some of their policies, however, are completely indefensible.
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Post by TheBlackCat »

Darth Wong wrote:The fact that anyone can vandalize a Wiki article at will isn't enough for you to wonder how its average accuracy can be as high as an encyclopedia which is professionally fact-checked? I wondered about that study when it was first published.
The possibility that something might have happened does not mean it did, in fact, happen. That is the whole point of testing it in the first place.
Darth Wong wrote:Are you suggesting that this article was actually considered a real scientific research paper and subjected to the appropriate scrutiny? That would come as a shock to me.
Are you suggesting that Nature, one the premier scientific journals in the world, would cary out what amounts to a massive case of scientific fraud? That would come as a shock to me.
Darth Wong wrote:Yes, American journalists are very good at pretending to be impartial. Some would even say that they are fair and balanced.
Well this article sure doesn't sound the least bit balanced to me.

Please understand that I am not saying Brittanica is wrong, but considering that Brittanica has a serious financial stake in this issue while Nature has no obvious stake, financial or otherwise, I would tend to be a bit more skeptical of Brittanica's claims than Nature's.
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Post by Admiral Valdemar »

So they're accusing the world's de facto number 1 science publisher of misrepresenting data and an encyclopædia's position?

I'm with TheBlackCat on this. Unless Britannica is going to bring something to the table, their little "but we say this is bullshit" accusation has no basis.

To think Nature would risk their reputation and a lawsuit in making stuff up against another, premier intellectual resource is pushing my suspension of disbelief. An editorial is one guy's opinion, but if a scientifically sound background check by their staff of Wikipedia says those Wiki articles have an edge over Britannica, I'm going with them.

Britannica had better have some good backing for this, else they're the ones who will look foolish. You don't accuse the mother of all scientific journals of bad practice lightly, so this is going to get interesting. It would be easier if it wasn't a UK website like The Register reporting on a squabble between two British institutions. It's easier in the US since you can see the lying pseudoscience people clearly, such as the Discovery Institute.
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Post by Guardsman Bass »

Wikipedia is what it is. It seems to be okay most of the time, but everything on it used in an argument should be verified by other sources.
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Post by Darth Wong »

TheBlackCat wrote:The possibility that something might have happened does not mean it did, in fact, happen. That is the whole point of testing it in the first place.
There are historical examples where it did happen, and the Wiki people have admitted as much. And as I pointed out the first time this came up, even if you disregard the claims of fraud, the study admittedly made no attempt to evaluate the magnitude of the error; saying something happened in May 1854 instead of April 1854 is just as much of an "error" according to their comparison as saying that Hitler and Stalin were gay lovers.
Are you suggesting that Nature, one the premier scientific journals in the world, would cary out what amounts to a massive case of scientific fraud? That would come as a shock to me.
No, for the second time, I am suggesting that this comparison of two encyclopedias was not undertaken as a serious scientific investigation, which is basically what Briancei is saying after apparently having looked at the original article.
Last edited by Darth Wong on 2006-03-23 02:02pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Baron Scarpia »

According to Nature itself, the editors of the article did NOT fact check the reviews of the experts they sent it to. That right there is bad, bad, bad scholarship, no matter how you dice it. Nature also did not require the experts to source their responses, as that would be "too time consuming."

Sorry, but there's no way to look favorably on that. It's sloppy work and has no place in such a distinguished journal. Whether or not all of Britannica's response is accurate, the above two facts alone render the Nature article a scholarship disaster.
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Post by wolveraptor »

Couldn't Wikipedia easily have more accurate articles than Britannia by having sections on things like anime shows, Halo, World of Warcraft, and hell, SDN? I'm fairly sure that by sheer volume and the number of frivolous topics out there, Wikipedia could have many more errors but a smaller percentage than Britannia. Also coming into consideration should be the nature of the errors: lies, out dated information or incorrect interpretations?
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Post by Baron Scarpia »

Here's a pdf of Britannica's reply in full:

http://corporate.britannica.com/britann ... sponse.pdf

I'd say a lot of what they show there is pretty damning of Nature, which is a bitter disappointment. I do want to see the full review notes as soon as possible, though.
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Post by Admiral Valdemar »

Yeah, a release of everything they used and did for the article would help since extracts are only available, which is why I question some accusations until we get a full picture. If Britannica is right, then Nature needs to question those that did this article, for it reflects poorly on the rest of the group, even if not an actual, peer reviewed science paper like usual.
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Post by Zed Snardbody »

Wiki is nothing more than the Hitchhikers Guide to The Galaxy sans the words "Don't Panic" on the fron t page.

"it has many omissions and contains much that
is apocryphal, or at least wildly inaccurate"
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Post by Edi »

Seems like a lot of people on this thread did not bother to check the actual Reg article for the links in it and after it. Including the link to the PDF that Scarpia revealed here. It's twenty pages long, and if even a tenth of the stuff Britannica is saying there is accurate, Nature needs to do some serious house cleaning.

What this means is that the dirty laundry surrounding this has to be aired in public and all the data released, the full study and sources etc made public for actual peer review. If Nature refuses to do that, it'll as good as admit that guilt, and if it does and it turns out the accusations are correct, it's up shit creek without a paddle anyway. Though in that case a prompt public firing of the editor and the staff involved would somewhat mitigate the catastrophe.

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Post by Keevan_Colton »

Darth Wong wrote:Brittanica should sue Nature Magazine. Seriously, it looks like their conduct went beyond sloppy journalism and right into outright fraudulent misrepresentation, and it was an attack upon the credibility of Brittanica itself: their financial lifeblood.
I look forward to waving this shit at the lecturer here that insisted that the Nature article validated his view that Wikipedia was a good source for journalistic research.
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Post by Keevan_Colton »

Zed Snardbody wrote:Wiki is nothing more than the Hitchhikers Guide to The Galaxy sans the words "Don't Panic" on the fron t page.

"it has many omissions and contains much that
is apocryphal, or at least wildly inaccurate"
Britannica strives to encompass the sum of human knowledge on any given topic.
Wikipedia strives to offer the sum of human ignorance on any given topic.
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Post by Admiral Valdemar »

Edi wrote:Seems like a lot of people on this thread did not bother to check the actual Reg article for the links in it and after it. Including the link to the PDF that Scarpia revealed here. It's twenty pages long, and if even a tenth of the stuff Britannica is saying there is accurate, Nature needs to do some serious house cleaning.

What this means is that the dirty laundry surrounding this has to be aired in public and all the data released, the full study and sources etc made public for actual peer review. If Nature refuses to do that, it'll as good as admit that guilt, and if it does and it turns out the accusations are correct, it's up shit creek without a paddle anyway. Though in that case a prompt public firing of the editor and the staff involved would somewhat mitigate the catastrophe.

Edi
If Nature is guilty, it loses some employees, and that is that. It's far, far too big and respected to have any use of the term "up shit creek" to have relevance. We shall see who has the final say on this, because you don't get the world's oldest and most respected encyclopædia fighting the world's oldest and most respected science journal without some interesting results. I'm wondering how the WIkipedia community is spinning this.
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Post by petesampras »

If the allegations made by Britannica are true, have they sufficient ground to sue? Any legal experts here know?
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