Republic \ Clones VS. The Empire.

Subnormal · Post by **Subnormal** » 2002-07-29 11:28pm

The clones look to have far superior weapons and better ground vehicles. I would bet they would beat the Empire in a fair fight, namely ground combat. And please no more KE talk, since CTs don't have slugthrowers.

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2002-07-29 11:34pm

I would guess that the Empire would win, but their stormtroopers would take significantly heavier casualties than the clones. This is because the clones are all clones of Jango Fett, an extremely gifted individual. The actual equipment of a stormtrooper is better, and the AT-AT appearst to be vastly superior to the armored vehicles that the clones have, but the clones' training and genetics would allow them to do tremendous damage to the Empire.

Subnormal · Post by **Subnormal** » 2002-07-29 11:38pm

The clones have the SPHA-T walker which could easily destroy any Imperial Walker with ease, if the AT-TE couldn't. The clones have far superior ground equipage and the armor is practicly the same. Only trouble with clone Army is its Space fleet which still have a good amount of firepower.

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2002-07-29 11:47pm

The clone armor is not the same as stormtrooper armor, it is not as comfortable or flexible. It has probably not been modified to serve in severe environments like stormtrooper armor. All of this is stated in ICS. The AT-TE does not have the firepower that it would require to punch through AT-AT armor, althought their SPHA-T artillery would almost certainly be able to.

Incidentally, this does not change my position. The Empire would eventually win the war because of their resources and numbers. They would take much more heavy casualties than the clones. It would be like the American Civil War, in which the North consistently took far heavier losses, but eventually won the war because of their advantages in industry, population, and resources.

Subnormal · Post by **Subnormal** » 2002-07-29 11:52pm

Wait a minute, how is it possible for the new republic to beat the Empire and the Old republic which is much larger not to. Though the heavy projectile cannon may give the AT-AT a run for the money.

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2002-07-30 12:01am

countdooku, again you come before me with silly arguments. It is not my fault you do not understand the events of the movies and the timeline, but I will attempt to explain them as best I can.

1. The New Republic did not beat the Empire. That is a common misconception. After the Emperor was killed, he had no clear successor, as Vader died also. There were inumerable civil wars between different Imperial factions (ref. The Courtship of Princess Leia, The Jedi Academy Trilogy, Heir to the Empire, etc.) These greatly weakened the remainder of the Empire's former groups, and the New Republic was allowed to pick up many of the pieces. The New Republic is, in fact, considerably weaker than the Empire at its height, and not nearly as good at fighting a defensive war instead of a guerilla one.

2. The clones were extremely limited in number. Far more so than the Imperial's stormtroopers. Remember that the Republic, unlike the Empire, did not have much of a standing military. It relied on its member worlds and their fleets to deal with serious problems, as well as their ATF/FBI/minute-men type judicials. They were also heavily reliant on the Jedi. On the other hand, the Empire has a HUGE standing army, and massive space-fleets. It has sector fleets to respond to trouble, and planetary defense groups protect planets from attack. This represents a MUCH more powerful and numerous force than was available in the Old Republic.

3. The Empire is actually larger and more powerful than the Old Republic. An examination of the films should have led you to this conclusion. In TPM, the Republic was clearly not in control of Tatooine, it was controlled by the Hutts. Further, the Trade Federation obviously held lots of systems. In the Empire, Tatooine has a very strong Imperial presence (ref. ANH). The Empire had obviously expanded greatly on the former Republic. Parts of the Unknown Regions had been conquered under Thrawn, and the Empire's agents were rapidly expanding far towards the Outer Rim, a goal the Republic would never have dreamed of.

4. Projectile weapons would be ineffective against an AT-AT. If you do not want to be lectured again about KE, do not bring it up.

Subnormal · Post by **Subnormal** » 2002-07-30 12:15am

You say there aren't that many clones, but there is no evidence that supports this theory. As Mike Wong states in his AOTC technology revelations.

"The Kaminoans say they have produced 200,000 "units", with another million "units" to be ready shortly. It is widely assumed that a "unit" is an individual trooper, however, it should be noted that it might also be a squad, a company, a batallion, or a division. 1.2 million soldiers is a rather small figure for a galactic army, particularly when its principal opposition (battle droids) can be manufactured in factories which pump out many tens of thousands of droids per day."

So we have no Idea what the exact size of the clone army is, nor do we know what the size of a unit is.

We don't know what the Rothana heavy Engineering facilities production rates are nor what weapons they are creating or how many were produced. The Clone war is suppose to be massive and many clones would be needed for such a galactic war, and the Fleets or crafts may already have been in production before the war.

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2002-07-30 12:21am

But, we do know that a single planet was able to produce all those clones, and that a few other corporations were able to build their equipment, right? The Empire has billions of worlds that are all producing stormtroopers. Kamino is a water world, with very little land mass that is fit for humans to live and train on. The Empire is vast. The Empire clearly has more resources than Kamino had, and remember that Kamino did not appear to be strained by the order for the clones. They even reminded Kenobi that if the Republic wanted more clones, it would take some time to grow them. I did not mean that the Clone Army was small, per se, I meant that it was very small compared to the Imperial Army and armed forces.

Subnormal · Post by **Subnormal** » 2002-07-30 12:55am

Yes you are entirely correct again, I might add. I will admit my mistakes as long as you don't call me unintelligent or stupid as you did in my last post, at least I know when to end my discussions instead of continuing with evidence that don't strongly support my views, and turning the topic into a flame war, which I dislike. From now on if im getting far off believablity please just say your unintellible in the current topic, and please give me the scientific evidence that supports my unintelligence, I am still young and not to par with most of this complex information, that I have yet to read or learn about. And on the KE topic I am sorry if the evidence I gave was already used in past discussion, I had no clue, I thought all of it up myself, and in no way did I use if from other persons discussions, nor was I a big fan of SW Vs ST. I will have to leave this one towards your evidence again. Though if an Imperial ISD battle group was say transported back in time to the Clone wars, what would it do, ask for an alliance with the republic, but if it accidentally slipped that their Emperor was Palpatine the whole thing would go to shit, Palpatine would lose his War powers and The Imperial ships would dissappear into thin air. Though I know enough about Time travel to know what would happen.

Again... Another Stupid post by Count Dooku
Though I am glad I have all this knowledge about the Clones weaponry, Clones kick ass.

Also Trekkies Suck...

Subnormal · Post by **Subnormal** » 2002-07-30 12:56am

By last post I mean the Starship Troopers one.

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2002-07-30 02:47am

Guys you have to admit, Republic Gunships are AWESOME!! I love those things, they ,made a great Vroooom sound as they flew and they had thsoe small little ball turrets with clone warriors inside firing away. They just looked SEXY and DANGEROUS. The OT certainly didn't show any air support vehicles akin to the gunship so I wonder what happened? (Aside form the obvious fact that GL didn't think it up for the OT or didn't have the budget for it)

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2002-07-30 12:56pm

Sorry, countdooku. I had no idea you were new to this kind of thing. Actually, I am fairly impressed that you were able to think of all of those arguments on your own.

In regards to your question about an Imperial battle-group, it could probably do one of two things.

1. Ally itself with a planetary fleet, such as the Kuati or Raithal fleets.
2. Attempt to conquer a planet along the Outer or Mid Rims. They could then set up as a base of operations. You are also right, everything would go to hell if they talked about an Emperor Palpatine.

Crazy_Vasey · Post by **Crazy_Vasey** » 2002-07-30 04:10pm

The republic didn't take the Empire down, the emperor did. He bled the Imperial fleet dry betweern ROTJ and DE recalling it to Byss and let what he didn't recall get hammered, even Thrawn only had a few dozen star destroyers at best available to him! When Byss went bang it was the death knell for the Imperial navy.

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2002-07-30 04:33pm

Crazy_Vasey wrote:The republic didn't take the Empire down, the emperor did. He bled the Imperial fleet dry betweern ROTJ and DE recalling it to Byss and let what he didn't recall get hammered, even Thrawn only had a few dozen star destroyers at best available to him! When Byss went bang it was the death knell for the Imperial navy.

Also, a lot of planets rebelled against the Empire and defeated the occupation forces. Then, many of those planets asked for membership in the NR to help protect them from Imperial retaliation. That allowed the NR to expand greatly while not doing much fighting. On the other hand, it prevented the NR from building up strong defensive forces as well as it might have.

Peregrin Toker · Post by **Peregrin Toker** » 2002-07-31 04:48am

countdooku wrote:"The Kaminoans say they have produced 200,000 "units", with another million "units" to be ready shortly. It is widely assumed that a "unit" is an individual trooper, however, it should be noted that it might also be a squad, a company, a batallion, or a division. 1.2 million soldiers is a rather small figure for a galactic army, particularly when its principal opposition (battle droids) can be manufactured in factories which pump out many tens of thousands of droids per day."

Erm... the novelization explicitly describes Obi-Wan's disgust of the Kaminoans referring to humans as "units"....

or maybe it's just a matter of interpretation.....

By the way, cloning is a very expensive process..... today, cloning a human costs at least 200,000$ - multiply that by one million and two thousand... and this means that the clonetrooper project will cost at least
240.000.000.000$!!!

And that's before you add the cost of accelerated growth, plus the tremendous cost of equipping an army, not to mention the construction of military vehicles and Acclamator-class troop transport ships.....

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2002-07-31 10:47pm

Cloning itself MIGHT be cheaper in the SW universe, but you're right. Equipping that army would be a spectacularly credit-intensive process. The Empire has billions of star systems, and the Republic simply is not powerful enough to match it industrially. The clones would be badly outnumbered, and their walkers are no match for AT-ATs, but they would be more skilled than stormtroopers. That would be their biggest advantage by far. They would do more damage to the Empire than the Empire did to them, but they would lose, in the end, due to greater Imperial numbers and greater Imperial equipment.