A thought about the whole "Chosen One to balance the Fo

[Knife]

Because this whole thread is about bringing balance to the Force, a feat impossible to do. It matters because some people would believe that the obliteration of the Sith Order means the obliteration of the Sith, and that is not true, not at all.

1. I think your position is flawed, as I've put up my own theory in my own posts. Balance to Force does not need to have anything to do with the respected orders that use the Force. Rather they are more tools of the Force than anything.

2. Killing off the Order indeed, may not mean the total destruction of the Sith, but it sets them back thousands of years. Consider the rule of two; Master teaches one apprentice. The reason why Palpatine was as powerful as he was, wasn't becasue of some huge super-duper Sith Order giving him all the power, rather that he represented the last in a line of people hoarding their knowledge.

Everything each successive Sith Lord knew was past on to his/her ONE apprentice, which in turn would supposedly uncover new and facinating insights into the darkside and would pass it on to the next, etc for over a thousand years.

When Palpatine died, he took it all with him. Hell, he didn't even teach all of it to Vader since Palpy thought he was going to live forever, and even if he did, Vader died. A thousand years of Force knoweldge is gone. Any Sith or people who practice Sith ways would not have that particular brand of knowledge and if they wanted it, they'd have to start the long ass journey again. So yes, Sith techniques on using the Force are still out there, but the vast power of the Sith is broken and gone.

(edited for typo)

[Cos Dashit]

1. I think your position is flawed, as I've put up my own theory in my own posts. Balance to Force does not need to have anything to do with the respected orders that use the Force. Rather they are more tools of the Force than anything.

So the Force is always in balance? It doesn't matter who uses it, or which side, how often, for what purposes, it will remain in equilibrium?

2. Killing off the Order indeed, may not mean the total destruction of the Sith, but it sets them back thousands of years. Consider the rule of two; Master teaches one apprentice. The reason why Palpatine was as powerful as he was, wasn't becasue of some huge super-duper Sith Order giving him all the power, rather that he represented the last in a line of people hoarding their knowledge.

There have been several cases when the Spirits of fallen Sith have come back, and restore the Order to it's previous power. Sith Lord Naga Sadow had created a Sith Empire on Yavin IV, but when he died nothing else but ruins remained. Luke Skywalker later created a Jedi Academy there, and Sith Lords Darth Sidious and Exar Kun came back as spirits and started turning his students over to the Dark Side, and the Jedi had just as much trouble fighting these Sith, even though their Empire had been dead, with no actual knowledge remaining. Even with the Order dead, they came back full-force.

Everything each successive Sith Lord knew was past on to his/her ONE apprentice, which in turn would supposedly uncover new and facinating insights into the darkside and would pass it on to the next, etc for over a thousand years.

Okay. Continue.

When Palpatine died, he took it all with him. Hell, he didn't even teach all of it to Vader since Palpy thought he was going to live forever, and even if he did, Vader died. A thousand years of Force knoweldge is gone. Any Sith or people who practice Sith ways would not have that particular brand of knowledge and if they wanted it, they'd have to start the long ass journey again. So yes, Sith techniques on using the Force are still out there, but the vast power of the Sith is broken and gone.

See above story. It was not gone, and the lost information was found when the Sith returned.

[Knife]

1. I think your position is flawed, as I've put up my own theory in my own posts. Balance to Force does not need to have anything to do with the respected orders that use the Force. Rather they are more tools of the Force than anything.

So the Force is always in balance? It doesn't matter who uses it, or which side, how often, for what purposes, it will remain in equilibrium?

You're thinking in to small a scale. Even if a Jedi is 1000 more times more sensitive or connected to the Force than a normal being, it can't compare to the trillions of people in the galaxy connected to the Force at a way smaller scale. "Life creates it, makes it grow." Hell, even if an individual Jedi were a million times more connected to the Force than a normal being it wouldn't compare.

A dying, rotted, colapsing galactic society with litterly trillions and trillions of lifeforms suffering is worse than a couple thousand powerful Sith/Jedi exerting their influence, if all of those beings are connected to the Force. Look at the shock waves in the Force from just millions/billions on Alderaan? Obi was physically ill at it and he didn't even know what had happened. Death and suffering apperently have an affect on the Force. That's out of balance.

A corrupt galactic sized civilization about to fall would represent a larger issue for the Force than a couple thousand or tens of thousands of Force users. Would a fall be a benifit to the Darkside? Perhaps but not specifically in an idealogical way, rather pain, misery, suffering and change. To balance it, you'd have to 'change' from the corrupt to a new begining with as little pain and misery as possible. That is balance.

There have been several cases when the Spirits of fallen Sith have come back, and restore the Order to it's previous power. Sith Lord Naga Sadow had created a Sith Empire on Yavin IV, but when he died nothing else but ruins remained. Luke Skywalker later created a Jedi Academy there, and Sith Lords Darth Sidious and Exar Kun came back as spirits and started turning his students over to the Dark Side, and the Jedi had just as much trouble fighting these Sith, even though their Empire had been dead, with no actual knowledge remaining. Even with the Order dead, they came back full-force.

Besides Dark Empire, I'm not familure with Sidious coming back. As far as Naga Sadow, he represents a Sith Order before the rule of two where he and his buddies all wanted to be the Sith Lord and ended up fighting each other instead of the Jedi or galaxy at large (IIRC). I have no idea of his power level, per say, but since he and his buddies got killed fighting each other, the same applies. Most of his secrets are lost.

See above story. It was not gone, and the lost information was found when the Sith returned.

I don't see how? Neither instance was a Sith ghost taking a student, rather a Sith ghost temping a Jedi wannbe to turn. AFAIK, no Jedi wannabe that got sucked into the Dark side post Endor actually took Sith training from a ghost, rather they just got tempted to turn to the darkside.

If your idea was that you can not destroy the 'DARK SIDE' then I would agree with you, since it is a fundemental piece of the Force. But the SITH are nothing more than an idealogy and techniques on using the Darkside.

[Spartan]

Knife wrote:

Considering that the NR lasted as long as the Empire, I don't see how my opinion is invalidated, nor by the GFFA since it has been only a few years since it's creation. We have no idea how long it'll be around.

Going back to the Roman analogy, it took centuries for a lot of the various provinces to pull their shit together, but I believe it would have been even longer, going back to starwars and the current state of the galaxy, if the Republic would have continued to decay for the next few hundred years.

I would agree with you were it not for the fact that Europe was shit hole for over a thousand years! Any point in the Roman Empire's history is better than the centuries of chaos and destruction that followed the fall. Order is always preferable to chaos. The Old republic was not so far gone that it could not be saved. A slow decline would be preferable to decades to centuries of warfare and to loss of countless trillions of lives. But, you feel that the Force should just kick over the chess board and start over? The Bendu monks felt that the Force's intent was to unify the Galaxy.

I think that the Force was not piss at the Galaxy as a whole, by instead was ticked at it Avatars. As far as the Force wanting balance goes perhaps it just meant to eliminate the Jedi/Sith philosophy. After all the Jedi had moved far from their original Bendu origins. On top of which the Jedi, were actively inhibiting if not outright eliminating alternate school of Force teachings. The Jedi are dominant, but not the only organized group of force-users. Of course if you don't follow the Jedi philosophy, your a darksider.

[Knife]

I would agree with you were it not for the fact that Europe was shit hole for over a thousand years! Any point in the Roman Empire's history is better than the centuries of chaos and destruction that followed the fall. Order is always preferable to chaos. The Old republic was not so far gone that it could not be saved. A slow decline would be preferable to decades to centuries of warfare and to loss of countless trillions of lives. But, you feel that the Force should just kick over the chess board and start over? The Bendu monks felt that the Force's intent was to unify the Galaxy.

Hmm, perhaps I'm not expressing myself that well, since what you just wrote is the jist of my argument. The Roman Empire fell and the 'Dark Ages' that lasted for hundreds of years is the fate of the Repbulic in SW.

However, if you can have a strongman come in, clean out the corruption and restore order (hello? Palpatine?) you can clear out the rot. Now all you need is a cure for the cure. Enter Anakin.

I think that the Force was not piss at the Galaxy as a whole, by instead was ticked at it Avatars. As far as the Force wanting balance goes perhaps it just meant to eliminate the Jedi/Sith philosophy. After all the Jedi had moved far from their original Bendu origins. On top of which the Jedi, were actively inhibiting if not outright eliminating alternate school of Force teachings. The Jedi are dominant, but not the only organized group of force-users. Of course if you don't follow the Jedi philosophy, your a darksider.

I disagree, trillions and trillions of life forms, even if they are weaker in the Force, would have more of an affect than a few thousand or tens of thousands of powerful beings in the Force.

[Spartan]

Knife wrote:

Hmm, perhaps I'm not expressing myself that well, since what you just wrote is the jist of my argument. The Roman Empire fell and the 'Dark Ages' that lasted for hundreds of years is the fate of the Repbulic in SW.

However, if you can have a strongman come in, clean out the corruption and restore order (hello? Palpatine?) you can clear out the rot. Now all you need is a cure for the cure. Enter Anakin.

Okay, gotcha. I agree with that.

I disagree, trillions and trillions of life forms, even if they are weaker in the Force, would have more of an affect than a few thousand or tens of thousands of powerful beings in the Force.

Yes, but what I meant was that the Jedi are a drag on the rest of the Galaxy coming to know the force.

[Cos Dashit]

1. I think your position is flawed, as I've put up my own theory in my own posts. Balance to Force does not need to have anything to do with the respected orders that use the Force. Rather they are more tools of the Force than anything.

So the Force is always in balance? It doesn't matter who uses it, or which side, how often, for what purposes, it will remain in equilibrium?

You're thinking in to small a scale. Even if a Jedi is 1000 more times more sensitive or connected to the Force than a normal being, it can't compare to the trillions of people in the galaxy connected to the Force at a way smaller scale. "Life creates it, makes it grow." Hell, even if an individual Jedi were a million times more connected to the Force than a normal being it wouldn't compare.

A dying, rotted, colapsing galactic society with litterly trillions and trillions of lifeforms suffering is worse than a couple thousand powerful Sith/Jedi exerting their influence, if all of those beings are connected to the Force. Look at the shock waves in the Force from just millions/billions on Alderaan? Obi was physically ill at it and he didn't even know what had happened. Death and suffering apperently have an affect on the Force. That's out of balance.

A corrupt galactic sized civilization about to fall would represent a larger issue for the Force than a couple thousand or tens of thousands of Force users. Would a fall be a benifit to the Darkside? Perhaps but not specifically in an idealogical way, rather pain, misery, suffering and change. To balance it, you'd have to 'change' from the corrupt to a new begining with as little pain and misery as possible. That is balance.

One Force-user could affect those trillions of people though. Emperor Palpatine affected every person on every system with his Rule with Fear Doctrine. He made these people angry, some people very angry, and some people angry to the point where they rebelled. So because of one Force-user, trillions are adversley affected, and this is on a large scale. The Force would have to be affected by that.

As for the Alderaan example, it was Palpatine's man who gave the order to kill those people. So technically, that one person made the Force ripple like that.

[Noble Ire]

As for the Alderaan example, it was Palpatine's man who gave the order to kill those people. So technically, that one person made the Force ripple like that.

Nevertheless, it was their deaths that cuased the 'shockwave' in the Force. Obi-Wan said "...as if a million beings cried out in terror, and were suddenly silenced", not "Well, seems like Palpatine did something really bad. Again."

[Cos Dashit]

As for the Alderaan example, it was Palpatine's man who gave the order to kill those people. So technically, that one person made the Force ripple like that.

Nevertheless, it was their deaths that cuased the 'shockwave' in the Force. Obi-Wan said "...as if a million beings cried out in terror, and were suddenly silenced", not "Well, seems like Palpatine did something really bad. Again."

If a man drops a stone into a pond, and the pond ripples, with whom lies the fault? The stone, or the man that drops the stone?

If a man kills another man with a gun, with whom lies the fault? The gun, or the man that fired the gun?

[Noble Ire]

If a man drops a stone into a pond, and the pond ripples, with whom lies the fault? The stone, or the man that drops the stone?

If a man kills another man with a gun, with whom lies the fault? The gun, or the man that fired the gun?

That isn't the point. It was their deaths that caused the distrubance, not Palpatine's intent and action. In the long run, he may implement tremors in the Force, but it is the victims who actually generate the ripples (the end result is the same, but Knife's point about the galactic population remains true).

[PainRack]

I find myself agreeing with Knife, although I do believe Palpatine tried to manipulate the Force prophecy when he turned Anakin.

To put it simply, the Galactic Republic and the Jedi that protects it has turned stagnant. The sin of pride and arrogrance was in the eyes of the Jedi and Anakin was only the epitome of these "sins". Their hubris probably proved to be a hinderance in understanding the Force, so Anakin was conceived to bring about the change.

Similarly, the Galactic Empire that emerged proved to be as corrupt as the old, and Anakin removed it.


Its interesting to compare the Sons of Suns and the Chosen One prophecy though, as it seems to suggest that Anakin is an agent of change whereas Luke is the catalyst and "controller" of sorts.

[Knife]

Yes, but what I meant was that the Jedi are a drag on the rest of the Galaxy coming to know the force.

*shrug* I don't know, but why would the rest of the galaxy need to 'know the Force'. If balance is the key here; then I'd assume peace and prosperity would serve. You can't have that with a corrupt system, so it has to go and it was. The real question is how long that was going to be.

The main reason why the Jedi needed to go, IMO, is that they were unseperable from the Republic and the novel from ROTS hints (I believe it was the novelization anyways) at it when they say the Mace Windu's one attachment is the Republic. He loved it, completely. The Jedi Order represented the Republic just as much as the Senate did. Keep the Order and you keep a lot of the ideals and tradition that corrupted the Senate. If the Republic fell but the Jedi Order stayed, they'd never rest until the Republic was restored to what it was when it fell, and then it would have been just the same and a zero sum result.

One Force-user could affect those trillions of people though. Emperor Palpatine affected every person on every system with his Rule with Fear Doctrine.

Life didn't seem all that different on Tatooine, nor Alderaan before it was destroyed, nor other systems.

He made these people angry, some people very angry, and some people angry to the point where they rebelled. So because of one Force-user, trillions are adversley affected, and this is on a large scale. The Force would have to be affected by that.

To my knoweldge, most of those that rebelled did so on political grounds, not any sort of philosophic disagreement between Sith/Jedi. The fact that Palpatine was a Sith wan't really an issue for Mon Mothma or other Senators that rebelled. It was only an issue for Yoda, Obi and later Luke. All Jedi.

Also, are you implying that Palpatines 'battlemeditation' was expanded to such a degree that he was, by his very exsistence, creating hate and misery through the Force, rather than his policies to grasp onto and hold onto political power?

Anyway, Palpatine was only ~20 years, while the type of chaos and misery on a Galactic level I was talking about would have been for 100's of years if not thousands. Palpy was bad (hence why fate needed Anakin) but what if the Empire fell and millions of little tin pot dictators took his place in millions of little fiefdoms? They'd have a more direct impact on the people of the galaxy.

[Kurgan]

Did anyone besides the Jedi (and some of Palpatine's inner circle, most of whom were either Sith as well, or virtually slaves with no minds of their own) even know that Palpatine was a Sith? The intro to the SW novelisation makes him out to be percieved as a corrupt and opportunist politician, but now one that was pretty much ruled by the interests that got him into power, not some master manipulator of the Dark Side. Even if that's retconned, where do we see people demonstrating common knowledge that he's a Sith Lord? There was no indication of this in the prequels that I could see. The Jedi couldn't sense him, and unless he told everybody, how were they to know? Did Yoda and Obi-Wan send out a memo before they both fled into exile?

And all this "but the New Republic was a terrible irresponsible government," like the failure of the New Jedi is the result of skewered continuity. None of the EU people had the outcome of the prequels mapped out for them in advance to make it all fit together and make sense. Plus the "NR and Jedi are idiotic morons" thing is just the natural consequence of having so many contrived stories of "galactic conflict of the week" and "dark jedi threat of the week" stuff. It reminds me of that Star Trek TNG episode when those guys are evaluating Picard's crew and they (humorously) find out how many times the ship has been taken over and Picard has turned on his crew, etc.

It's enough to want to just reset the EU completely. More and more I'm thinking that would be a great idea. Other franchises have done it, it might be a good thing, and they can always reuse good ideas from the past if it works.

Quick Q about Alderaan. So are you guys saying that if the planet was wiped out by collision with an asteroid or something, that wouldn't have made Obi-Wan get physically ill? That an Emperor had to give power to a Govenor who would order it destroyed with a super weapon that would do it? Tarkin seemed like a pretty cold mofo (he got pissed once or twice, but mostly he was business-like not the sadistic psychopath that Palpatine was) when he killed. It was just business as usual for him.

Anyway...

Even if we take the idea that the Will of the Force was to destroy the Jedi for being dogmatic and letting bad things happen, etc. or whatever their failing was, that still doesn't speak too well of the New Jedi. They're just as bad, if not worse than the Republic Jedi! Look at all the Jedi who fall in such a short time, and all the stupid crap and infighting, Luke's bad decisions, etc. The guy even fell to the Dark Side for awhile! And this is all in the EU without the benefit of knowing the prequel stuff for years to come (and a decade since Zahn's first cycle that jumpstarted it all and the end of the saga!).

It's like they haven't learned anything.

As to the Sith being unable to be wiped out, I was going to respond to that but others have done a much better job than I was going to so I won't get into that. In part I think some are making the "darksider = sith" fallacy and also I think people like Exar Kun are wanked out beyond belief. The authors just had to keep one-upping each other with Wankatine and Exar Wankun. Nothing about Sith ghosts in the movies. If the Sith had access to all these dudes, you'd think they could get a lot more done, but no. While the "ghost stories" and demonic possession tales have their own appeal (imagine the Solo/Skywalker babies with spinning heads and projectile pea-soup vomiting), it's just not what the Sith were about. Plagues supposedly figured out how to cheat death, but he was the only one, and the secret died with him. Exar Kun doesn't even seem like a Sith when we compare him to the movie Sith (where's his "Darth" name for crying out loud?!). He's more like a mad Dark Jedi, which would lead us to (without accepting some post-prequel retcons that try to explain all this mess) think he was one of the early Sith who really was little more than a Jedi with delusions of grandeur, sort of like Dooku when he first left the Order. And this guy is supposedly some kind of dark side GOD that can never die, etc. Makes a good legend, but to bring him in and now we have Palpatine who's supposed to be much more powerful (without needing to make HIM into a dark side god that never dies, as well) via the movies, but sucks compared to the stories we're told about this Exar guy. I thought the idea of Exar Kun was cool too, but it just doesn't seem to fit well with the Sith as we know them now, anymore.

And I know, it's not the creators of Exar Kun who are at fault, it's Lucas for changing his mind and screwing up the continuity that so many of us accepted for years. Deal with it, I guess. I'm just saying we can't use Exar Kun to solve the issue anymore of the movie prophecy, since it's really like comparing apples to oranges. The Sith's main strength was that they hoarded power instead of spreading it out thin and limiting themselves with prohibitions and rules on just going nuts with their powers. Their weakness was self destructive behavior (if that "assasinate half your Order every so often for fun" stuff is to be believed) and putting their eggs all in one basket.

Maybe it would help to think of the Force as the server admin, and the Jedi are your normal players, while the Sith are the guys using 'sploits and haxz to dominate the game. They are cheating, but doing it secretly, so you kick out some of the normal players so you can focus more attention on the cheating guys and embolden them. Then when they think they're winning and have shut everyone else out, you permban them and let the other guys back in. Or maybe not, but it sounds like a sort of compromise of various ideas presented in this thread.

I take it that Lucas intended for the prophecy to be fulfilled by Anakin in ROTJ, and this whole prophecy thing was only something he came up with while he was writing TPM and didn't fully plot out until he was mostly done with the prequel trilogy. I don't think the point of the prophecy was just to teach the Jedi to be bigger hippies or to eliminate 1% of the Dark Side users in the galaxy, or to make it so there were exactly equal membership roles in the two force clubs of the galaxy.

[Cos Dashit]

Did anyone besides the Jedi (and some of Palpatine's inner circle, most of whom were either Sith as well, or virtually slaves with no minds of their own) even know that Palpatine was a Sith? The intro to the SW novelisation makes him out to be percieved as a corrupt and opportunist politician, but now one that was pretty much ruled by the interests that got him into power, not some master manipulator of the Dark Side. Even if that's retconned, where do we see people demonstrating common knowledge that he's a Sith Lord? There was no indication of this in the prequels that I could see. The Jedi couldn't sense him, and unless he told everybody, how were they to know? Did Yoda and Obi-Wan send out a memo before they both fled into exile?

I do not believe that Palpatine being a Sith Lord was common knowledge. I point to Han Solo not believing in the Force; if the common man didn't believe in the Force, how could they believe that the Emperor is a Force-user? Now that I think of it, I doubt the common man had even heard of the Force.

Quick Q about Alderaan. So are you guys saying that if the planet was wiped out by collision with an asteroid or something, that wouldn't have made Obi-Wan get physically ill?

The people living on Alderaan would have a different reaction from an asteroid collison than a superlaser. IIRC, "voices cried out in terror, and were suddenly silenced". That would probably not be the case with an asteroid collision.

As to the Sith being unable to be wiped out, I was going to respond to that but others have done a much better job than I was going to so I won't get into that. In part I think some are making the "darksider = sith" fallacy and also I think people like Exar Kun are wanked out beyond belief. The authors just had to keep one-upping each other with Wankatine and Exar Wankun. Nothing about Sith ghosts in the movies. If the Sith had access to all these dudes, you'd think they could get a lot more done, but no. While the "ghost stories" and demonic possession tales have their own appeal (imagine the Solo/Skywalker babies with spinning heads and projectile pea-soup vomiting), it's just not what the Sith were about. Plagues supposedly figured out how to cheat death, but he was the only one, and the secret died with him. Exar Kun doesn't even seem like a Sith when we compare him to the movie Sith (where's his "Darth" name for crying out loud?!). He's more like a mad Dark Jedi, which would lead us to (without accepting some post-prequel retcons that try to explain all this mess) think he was one of the early Sith who really was little more than a Jedi with delusions of grandeur, sort of like Dooku when he first left the Order. And this guy is supposedly some kind of dark side GOD that can never die, etc. Makes a good legend, but to bring him in and now we have Palpatine who's supposed to be much more powerful (without needing to make HIM into a dark side god that never dies, as well) via the movies, but sucks compared to the stories we're told about this Exar guy. I thought the idea of Exar Kun was cool too, but it just doesn't seem to fit well with the Sith as we know them now, anymore.

Exar Kun doesn't fit in well with the modern Sith because, well, he is an ancient Sith. He lived 4,000 years before Episode I, and well before the modern Sith Order.

Maybe it would help to think of the Force as the server admin, and the Jedi are your normal players, while the Sith are the guys using 'sploits and haxz to dominate the game. They are cheating, but doing it secretly, so you kick out some of the normal players so you can focus more attention on the cheating guys and embolden them. Then when they think they're winning and have shut everyone else out, you permban them and let the other guys back in. Or maybe not, but it sounds like a sort of compromise of various ideas presented in this thread.

Great analogy.

[Knife]

Quick Q about Alderaan. So are you guys saying that if the planet was wiped out by collision with an asteroid or something, that wouldn't have made Obi-Wan get physically ill?

The people living on Alderaan would have a different reaction from an asteroid collison than a superlaser. IIRC, "voices cried out in terror, and were suddenly silenced". That would probably not be the case with an asteroid collision.[/quote]

I don't see why they'd have a different reaction, they probably just had enough time to realize what was going to happen and it scared them shitless. That coupled with their violent demise, sent a shockwave through the Force. Having just a few minutes to seconds to see a hudge planet killer asteroid about to smack into them would produce the same feelings of terror.

This is minus the fact that they could probably detect one coming months earlier and blast it into oblivion and/or let it impact on the planatary shields if they could handle them. But forgiving all of that, if the damn thing did hit unexpectedly, I don't see why the 'emotion' would be any different.

[Kurgan]

I do not believe that Palpatine being a Sith Lord was common knowledge. I point to Han Solo not believing in the Force; if the common man didn't believe in the Force, how could they believe that the Emperor is a Force-user? Now that I think of it, I doubt the common man had even heard of the Force.

Agreed. I'm more speaking to the notion that somehow the Rebellion leadership knew that Palpatine was a Sith Lord during the classic trilogy or before. Seems everyone who knew Palpy was a Sith are either under his direct control, dead, or in exile with nobody to gossip to. That's why in the classic trilogy only Vader, Luke and Yoda say anything about or witness to his powers.

The people living on Alderaan would have a different reaction from an asteroid collison than a superlaser. IIRC, "voices cried out in terror, and were suddenly silenced". That would probably not be the case with an asteroid collision.

I disagree. While a superweapon is scary, the fact that they died was what triggered the jolt in the force, not the method. And it's being tried to tie it to Palpatine himself. Lucas admitted on the ESB DVD that the reason Vader tortures Han, Chewie and makes Leia fear is to send ripples out in the Force to lure Luke in. So such a thing happens because the Jedi can sense suffering (Yoda does it too when Anakin is pissed and killing the Tuskens in AOTC), not just suffering caused by superweapons or Dark Side users.

Exar Kun doesn't fit in well with the modern Sith because, well, he is an ancient Sith. He lived 4,000 years before Episode I, and well before the modern Sith Order.

Which is why any Sith he taught would be like him, not like modern Sith, right? The Sith as they existed in his time were just Dark Jedi with delusions of grandeur, so it's like they're not even Sith. But I see where you're going with this, since if you have an immortal Sith that is constantly training people, you can never "destroy" the order.

Since Exar Kun is immortal, there's no way to ever stop the Sith, and so the Prophecy is nonesense. Don't the Jedi know about this dude? They've been threatened by him for 4,000 years, so they should have said "ah, this prophecy is bunk, we've got Exar Kun and all those other Sith ghosts running around we can't kill, so forget this crap, send Anakin to the pound."

And Wankatine is also immortal correct? Or was his spirit somehow destroyed? Because if you can kill one Sith ghost, you can kill another, and so you could stop Exar Kun permanently and end the whole thing. But this strikes me as some SuperShadow-esque late term fulfillment of the prophecy by having some New Jedi jerk or geriatric Luke kill the Sith ghost and THAT fulfills this prophecy, making Anakin's sacrifice pointless again.

Then again here's MY solution to the "Sith Ghosts" crap... LET THE JEDI GHOSTS DEAL WITH THEM!

Maybe Anakin (like Jesus before him, thanks Joseph Cambell!) goes into the afterlife and kicks butt too, so the Sith are still defeated by him and the prophecy still fulfilled. But that means you have to ditch all this Sith ghost crap post ROTJ.

But the ghosts thing gets screwed with in ROTS anyway, unless all those Jedi becoming spirits before Qui Gon were just jerks who couldn't care less about interfering in mortal affairs... or something?

Great analogy.

Sarcasm?

[Morilore]

Quick idea for those talking about how "NR/GA was as bad/worse than OR, therefore phail." The post-ROTJ galaxy is a galaxy in actual turmoil - which means there is actual potential for change and growth. The Old Republic, however, was institutionalized stagnation. What we think of as better or worse in a humanitarian sense does not necessarily mean better or worse for the ecology of galactic society in the long view - when nature functions properly and life is healthy, things die alot.

Maybe it would help to think of the Force as the server admin, and the Jedi are your normal players, while the Sith are the guys using 'sploits and haxz to dominate the game. They are cheating, but doing it secretly, so you kick out some of the normal players so you can focus more attention on the cheating guys and embolden them. Then when they think they're winning and have shut everyone else out, you permban them and let the other guys back in. Or maybe not, but it sounds like a sort of compromise of various ideas presented in this thread.

Dude, you've made my day.

[Cos Dashit]

Quick Q about Alderaan. So are you guys saying that if the planet was wiped out by collision with an asteroid or something, that wouldn't have made Obi-Wan get physically ill?

I didn't write that, that was Kurgan.

Great analogy.

Sarcasm?

No.

[Cos Dashit]

And Wankatine is also immortal correct? Or was his spirit somehow destroyed?

I believe Luke went over to the "Spirit Realm" of the Force, although I doubt my source's credibility on this tidbit of knowledge.

Source

[Kurgan]

So okay, you could theoretically kill all the Sith ghosts, kill all the Sith, and destroy the Sith records. That ought to do it!


Edit: Yeah that page is neat but contains some notable errors (just skimmed it briefly)

Sidious dissolved the Republic, founded the Empire, and for the first time ever, secured the Sith as the rulers of the galaxy.

Once more, the Sith will rule the galaxy... - Palpatine, ROTS

And technically it was re-organized not "dissolved."

The first great battle of the Galactic Civil War was the Battle of Yavin.

The opening crawl of ANH establishes that the Rebellion had just won their first victory against the Empire, so unless it wasn't a "great battle" this is incorrect.

He was restored by several operations that made him half man, half machine.

We only saw one "operation" and he was put into the full suit, but maybe you could say several operations were going on at once or something. The only thing that changes with his suit later is that his mask becomes asymetrical and the should armor becomes seperated to the arm portions (and he fills out into a muscular man!). Getting a facelift and some powder on his nose probably doesn't count.

Darth Sidious blamed the Clone Wars on the corruption of the Republic and used the special emergency powers granted to him during the wars to name himself Emperor.

Did he really? I thought he just justified it on the grounds that they needed a safe and secure society, after the foiling of the "Jedi Rebellion" and attempted assasination. Of course this would have to be propaganda, because Sideous knew he started the Clone Wars himself in order to weaken his enemies and consolidate his power. And what makes him think that the emergency powers had a clause saying he could name himself Emperor? He promised to "lay down" those powers when the crises had abbated, which he didn't (but maybe that was just a campaign promise, not law). I have a feeling that everything he did up to this point was legal (well except for organizing all those assasinations and starting the war in the first place!), but taking that last step was only possible because all his enemies were dead or on the run. Nobody was left to oppose him (for all he knew anyway).

Just as they had been born 25,000 years ago, the Sith were born again in the halls of the Jedi Council. This happened 1000 years before the events of Episode I.

He gives us a retcon, and now the Sith were first "born" the same time as the Jedi Order? Is that anywhere close to the "real" official retcon? Just when exactly did the Republic form, since the Jedi are supposed to predate it? Let me guess, the Jedi Order, Republic, AND Sith Order were now formed multiple times...

The history of the Sith starts almost twenty-five millennia before the events of Star Wars: Episode I. The Jedi Order formed during this time along with the creation of the Galactic Republic.

I thought so!

[speaking of the Sith war with the Jedi]The war was brutal but short and played out over several small battles.

1,000 years is short?! But he later contradicts himself on the same page:

After thousands of years of war and mistakes, the Jedi were determined to never again let the Sith rise.

Oh so now it was thousands of years of war with the Sith. Oops.

That revenge finally came almost two hundred years later, when a senator from the peaceful planet of Naboo rose to power as Chancellor of the Republic.

What the---- 200 years? Bane arose 1,000 years before TPM! How old is Palpatine?!

That revenge finally came almost two hundred years later, when a senator from the peaceful planet of Naboo rose to power as Chancellor of the Republic.
....
Corrupted by their newfound knowledge and the brutality of the war they had just won, the two Jedi renounced the Order, became Sith and changed their names to Darth Revan and Darth Malak -- master and apprentice.

I haven't played the KOTOR series, but what is the logic in "changing" your name by simply adding "Darth" in front of it? I'm sure he meant just granting yourself a title. That's like saying I changed my name from Kurgan to Darth Kurgan. Technically correct, but not much of a change since in the same article he says the Sith use "Darth" to hide their true identities. Then again there is a kind of Star Wars logic to it, Obi-Wan Kenobi hiding his true identity by changing his name to "Old Ben" Kenobi.

In the Jedi Order, each Jedi student makes a journey to get Illium Crystals for the lightsaber they will one day build. This journey is considered a rite of passage. As a result, Jedi sabers are many different colors depending on the crystals they find.

And all of those colors end up being blue or green. I sense a black-market cheating ring for Jedi students.

A lot of his images are mislabelled as well...

Well anyway, I'm sure he tried.

One quick nitpick for EU-philes: One of the things I remember from the first EU book I ever read, "Heir to the Empire" was that Jedi spirits couldn't stay around forever. So a few years after ROTJ, Obi-Wan had to rejoin the Force or something (he first started talking to Luke mere moments after his death, and appeared three years later). Qui Gon only appeared some 23 years after his death (then again I forget if he actually appeared or only spoke to Yoda). So how can Exar Kun appear 4,000 years after his death? Or has this Zahn idea just been done away with? (not that I'd miss it)

[Darth Yoshi]

Exar Kun used some sort of Sith magic involving the sacrifice of the Massassi souls on Yavin 4 to bind himself to one of the temples. If it sounds stupid, it's because it's KJA.

[FOG3]

Here is a thought. The Jedi previous to Skywalkers reorganizing, basically had their no attachments rule going so far as to include relationships. While Force capability and power don't necessary automatically go through bloodlines, by basically preventing the more powerful Force using individuals from procreating the Jedi Order is, unintentionally effectively skimming off those strong in the Force.

In KOTOR 2 it's basically established in discussions about Nihilus's munchies that one Jedi's Force presence is equivalent to a whole awful lot of normal peoples. From Yoda and a few other things there's indication that life creates it and makes it grow.

So from a certain point of view, could Anakin's actions have basically been the Force acting effectively in self defense to overthrow an Order with a policy that was weakening it?

Just a thought.

[Kurgan]

Exar Kun used some sort of Sith magic involving the sacrifice of the Massassi souls on Yavin 4 to bind himself to one of the temples. If it sounds stupid, it's because it's KJA.

So melt the temple and he's history? Cool!

Also, if you take Jedi Academy into account, all the "residual force energy" from most of the famous locales in the SW galaxy (other than Korriban) have been drained and contained in the Sceptor of Ragnos (I forget if it was destroyed or not, I get the two endings confused, in which case the power would have dissipated into the galaxy).

Here is a thought. The Jedi previous to Skywalkers reorganizing, basically had their no attachments rule going so far as to include relationships. While Force capability and power don't necessary automatically go through bloodlines, by basically preventing the more powerful Force using individuals from procreating the Jedi Order is, unintentionally effectively skimming off those strong in the Force.

In KOTOR 2 it's basically established in discussions about Nihilus's munchies that one Jedi's Force presence is equivalent to a whole awful lot of normal peoples. From Yoda and a few other things there's indication that life creates it and makes it grow.

So from a certain point of view, could Anakin's actions have basically been the Force acting effectively in self defense to overthrow an Order with a policy that was weakening it?

Just a thought.

Only problem with that is that the Jedi before the Prequels seem to have no problem being married or even having children (see Tales of the Jedi comics, even if that was 4,000 years before ANH, it still shows this stuff being allowed, indicating Lucas left the authors in the dark about this "rule"). Then during the prequels marriage is forbidden, then after the prequels its allowed again. The EU tries to retcon it by saying that some guys got a dispensation because their culture was dying so they could have a bunch of wives or something, and retcons the various 90210 relationships as "Flings" or clandestine relationships that were covered up.

And then Lucas makes some half-assed comment in an interview about how the Jedi aren't really celibate (I think he meant "chaste" since celibacy means no marriage, and clearly marriage is forbidden for the Jedi via AOTC/ROTS, so I guess he thinks that the Jedi can have all the sex and bastard children they want, so long as they kick their woman to the curb immediately afterwards "that was just pillow talk, baby" whatever).
It kind of reminds me of Lucas explaining why there's no sex in the movies as saying he's harkening back to the "old time movies" where "kisses represented sex." It's like he's trying to have it both ways (appeasing the prudes and the hippies). If that's true, then he just admitted that Luke banged his sister! *barf*


Incidentally, the EU's "Jedi Code" doesn't seem to match up with what we learn in ROTS. Unless there is extensive commentary and/or "oral tradition" of interpretation of this simple poem that the EU gives us, it really doesn't make any sense. They keep citing all these things that the Code forbids or this or that is against the code, and yet the code never mentions those things.

[FOG3]

Well KotOR 1 has them pulling the same stunt with no relationships. I suppose you could attempt to rationalize it, by the Jedi Council doing some "reforms" after the whole business with Exar Kun. That council clearly had some issues.

Perhaps after the Order was destroyed following the Jedi Civil War in rebuilding it didn't go along with that idea again. I don't have any data on the time inbetween. Following the Battle of Ruusan then perhaps either the Jedi found it in their old records or the Council came up with it again. Cue divine retaliation a thousands years later, after it became apparent they weren't budging.

It's definitely clear there's a Talmudesque interpretation of both codes from KotOR, so I woudn't see that as a contradiction. The real question is just how much do these guys overanalyze, distort, etc. what was probably originally a way of teaching the fundamentals and general guidelines, that probably wasn't really intended to be looked at that closely.

[Kurgan]

Ah, so KOTOR tried to retcon TOTJ with the prequel rules, but now people are trying to rationalize it as a temporary reform or something? Now it's starting to make sense...