Vaders Rage (TM)

[MKSheppard]

I've been thinking about this; in ANH, Vader was pretty mellow; he didn't go around force-choking people unless they actually offended him in public; and even then, he was willing to release them at Tarkin's bequest.

When ESB rolls around, he's a merciless killing machine, choking down men left and right.

By ROTJ, he's AFAIK, mellowed out again.

I think this is because by the time of ANH; he's had 20 years to "get over" the baggage he was left with at the end of ROTS; he's long ago taken his vengeance out on the jedi; dismembered, hacked, and whatnot them to pieces; In short, he's burned his anger out.

And then Luke Skywalker (!!!) from Tatooine (!!!) comes along and throws the proverbial wrench into his mind; dredging up all those painful memories from 20 years ago, so he reacts in the only way he knows how; killing people left and right.

However, by the end of ESB, he's spent his anger (rather quickly too), possibly "Luke, I AM your father" took more out of him than we know.

[Deathstalker]

This is pretty much the case. Ozzel really didn't screw up that bad, in fact it was beyond his control, but becuase Vader was no in the mood to suffer excuses, Ozzel dies. Needa was next, even after trying to be honorable and fessing up. Piett should have been doing the fish out of water flop after the Falcon escaped from Bespin, but Vader was in a "contemplative" mood, and by ROTJ he had mellowed again, perhaps enterining thoughts of Luke joining him, or Luke turning him to the light.

[Isolder74]

Perhaps he was fuming over having found out that he had a son and that Obi Wan had kept one last secret from him. Perhaps he was venting anger against the Emperor without daring to do so against the wrinkled old Sith Lord.

It could be that he just was seething over getting his fine self shot out of the trench by an upstart smuggler(perhaps why he put Han in the freexing chamber rather than Chewie or Leia)

[18-Till-I-Die]

It makes sense to me, kind figured as much myself actually.

But also you have to remember Anakin is and appearantly always was a sociopath. It was always there just that he was never pressed to act on it till ROTS and after.

That insane, irrational rage seething under the surface. Its really creepy if you think about it, the way he talked about the Jedi, Obi, behind their backs i mean he must have just despised them but was just barely containing it all those years.

[Publius]

Although he does bear complete responsibility for his actions, it is not entirely fair to blame Skywalker alone for his severe emotional and psychological problems. He was quite simply not properly prepared to handle the emotional roller-coaster that eventually led him into the chthonic depths of the dark side. The boy was raised in a condition of slavery, had traumatic encounters with pirates, and spent his entire adolescence in a cenobitic community that numbered apathy and detachment among its cardinal virtues. There was a sincere bond between Skywalker and his mentor Kenobi, but Kenobi was ill-suited to provide the guidance that Skywalker desperately needed in dealing with his problems; Kenobi was in many respects the quintessential Jedi, stiff upper lip and all.

[Knife]

Although he does bear complete responsibility for his actions, it is not entirely fair to blame Skywalker alone for his severe emotional and psychological problems. He was quite simply not properly prepared to handle the emotional roller-coaster that eventually led him into the chthonic depths of the dark side. The boy was raised in a condition of slavery, had traumatic encounters with pirates, and spent his entire adolescence in a cenobitic community that numbered apathy and detachment among its cardinal virtues. There was a sincere bond between Skywalker and his mentor Kenobi, but Kenobi was ill-suited to provide the guidance that Skywalker desperately needed in dealing with his problems; Kenobi was in many respects the quintessential Jedi, stiff upper lip and all.

Makes you wonder how shit would have ended up if Qui Jon hadn't died at Naboo.

[Lord Pounder]

One would think that Palpatine would have engineered Qui-Gon's demise to remove him as a threat to his own relationship with Skywalker. Palpatine could then say it was the Jedi who killed him because he was pissing off the council.

[Vympel]

I don't think Vader can be described as "angry" in TESB. Whenever he kills, he does so calmly, coldly. In ANH, when he strangled Motti, I think he would've killed him then and there if Tarkin hadn't told him to stop. Motti was asking for it more than Ozzel and Needa were.

[Knife]

One would think that Palpatine would have engineered Qui-Gon's demise to remove him as a threat to his own relationship with Skywalker. Palpatine could then say it was the Jedi who killed him because he was pissing off the council.

That's if Anakin was apart of the original plan, which I don't think he was. Palpatine saw an opertunaty and took it.

[Ghost Rider]

One would think that Palpatine would have engineered Qui-Gon's demise to remove him as a threat to his own relationship with Skywalker. Palpatine could then say it was the Jedi who killed him because he was pissing off the council.

That's if Anakin was apart of the original plan, which I don't think he was. Palpatine saw an opertunaty and took it.

Perhaps, but even as far back as TPM, Palpatine did note something special in Anakin. They even hint in RoTS that Palpy literally was the father Anakin never had when he first began training as a Jedi. So he's been in Anakin's life for a considerable time.

In terms of the events leading up and into TPM, no. Anakin was a lucky stroke, afterwards they definitly hinted at that Palpatine was definitly grooming Anakin as his apprentice.

[AK_Jedi]

True, you can't really describe Vader as acting in a belligerently angry manner, but there's more than one way to be angry.

For all we know, in the force, the act of "calmly, coldly" strangling somebody with telekinesis is the equivalent of thrashing your victim while screaming obscenities in their face.

[Darth Raptor]

There's also the matter of whether or not Vader's in charge. His function aboard the Death Star was to make sure Tarkin remained loyal, but for all other intents and purposes the Grand Moff outranked him. He was, however, the undisputed leader of Death Squadron, and could do whatever the hell he wanted to the personnel under his command with no oversight.

In RotJ none of the Imperial officers really do anything choke-worthy. In fact everything seems to be going swimmingly until the Ewoks show up.

[Ghost Rider]

In RotJ none of the Imperial officers really do anything choke-worthy. In fact everything seems to be going swimmingly until the Ewoks show up.

It's funny, in RoTJ, he was supposed to have one choke scene with Moff Jerjerrod. It's in the novel as some unnamed officer who blocks him in conference with the Emperor. It was used it more akin to "Who the fuck are you telling me what I can and cannot do?", and stopped when the officer told him that the order not to be disturbed came from the Emperor himself.

[MKSheppard]

But also you have to remember Anakin is and appearantly always was a sociopath.

How so? If he was a sociopath, he wouldn't have goen to such lengths to try and find/save his mother; or to such extremes to save Padme (even if it meant damnation from the Jedi Order, and if he has to kill everybody in the temple to save her...so be it).

[18-Till-I-Die]

But also you have to remember Anakin is and appearantly always was a sociopath.

How so? If he was a sociopath, he wouldn't have goen to such lengths to try and find/save his mother; or to such extremes to save Padme (even if it meant damnation from the Jedi Order, and if he has to kill everybody in the temple to save her...so be it).

Well, thats if you think he actually cared about them.

He wanted Padme cause she made him feel 'good', he wanted his son because it was 'his'. You can argue he did one really selfless thing in killing Palpatine, but honestly he just wanted stuff and did what he had to do to get it. He didnt care about anyone or anything.

His mother is probably the only person he ever actually cared about, but he showed less compassion for his wife and children.

If he loved his son so much why terrorize him, cut off his hand, throw him to Palpy, then try to kill him?

If he loved Padme so much why try to strangle her to death (and we dont know how much damage, if any, he did further he could easily have caused some internal damage that weakened her to the point her childbirth killed her).

Mind you he strangled her while she was pregnant, too. So obviously he didnt care a whole lot about his kids then, weather he did later or not.

Anakin said it himself, he wanted 'more', in his twisted mind this meant 'more stuff', and in his mind stuff isnt just power or possessions it means people he thinks belong to him. When he thought Padme was 'with Obi Wan' he instantly turned on her cause she wasnt his 'possession' anymore so he didnt care.

"You're either with me or you're my enemy!" his words, not mine.

[Noble Ire]

He wanted Padme cause she made him feel 'good', he wanted his son because it was 'his'. You can argue he did one really selfless thing in killing Palpatine, but honestly he just wanted stuff and did what he had to do to get it. He didnt care about anyone or anything.

That is blatantly false. The EU notes him becoming fast friends with numerous padawans and knights, like Barriss Offee, and it is quite plain that he cared a great deal for Obi-Wan, loving him like a father or a brother (although this attachement was less than the one he felt for Padme).

If he loved his son so much why terrorize him, cut off his hand, throw him to Palpy, then try to kill him?

That was Vader, who was most definately evil and a sociopath, although not quite to the extent as he is sometimes attributed (notably, his salvation of Falleen, and his attachment to officers he considered competent and loyal). Until he grabbed Palpatine, Anakin was effectively dead inside the Sith lord's mind.

If he loved Padme so much why try to strangle her to death (and we dont know how much damage, if any, he did further he could easily have caused some internal damage that weakened her to the point her childbirth killed her).

Again Vader, and one driven to the point of insanity by his new power at that.

Anakin said it himself, he wanted 'more', in his twisted mind this meant 'more stuff', and in his mind stuff isnt just power or possessions it means people he thinks belong to him. When he thought Padme was 'with Obi Wan' he instantly turned on her cause she wasnt his 'possession' anymore so he didnt care.

He was controlling, I'll give you that, and somewhat weak-minded. But Anakin was not a sociopath.

"You're either with me or you're my enemy!" his words, not mine.

Vader's words, not Anakin's. You might not see a difference, but there certainly is one. The only crimes that can be attributed to Anakin are the death of Mace Windu and, to a lesser extent, the slaughter of the Tusken tribe. When Anakin took that oath in Palpatine's office, he truely became a new and terrible person. Yoda spoke the truth when he told Obi-Wan his apprentice was dead.

[Eframepilot]

Anakin is not a sociopath. He always was very compassionate, and he cared deeply for his mother and Obi-Wan. His attachment to Padme was unhealthy, but many relationships are such without one or both members being a sociopath.

Anakin changed immensely when he turned to the dark side. Based on the extreme alterations in his behavior, I would say that the dark side of the Force actually acts like a drug, amplifying rage and leading to irrational behavior. How else could Anakin believe his own rant about bringing peace, justice, order and security to "his" new Empire, or accuse the Jedi of trying to take over while personally plotting to kill Palpatine and rule the galaxy himself? Anakin was deep into psychosis. Also, you don't have to be a sociopath to do terrible things to loved ones.

Count Dooku in the Episode III novelization is described as a traditional sociopath, unable to understand feelings of love or friendship even before his turn to the dark side. Palpatine is also either a sociopath or has become one after decades of the dark side eroding his personality. He does seem to care about Anakin and has a bit of a grudge against Obi-Wan ("We owe you a great debt, Obi-Wan Kenobi") for Darth Maul, though that is probably due to seeing Anakin and Maul as his precious tools. But Anakin managed to retain his capacity to love and to sacrifice himself even after two decades in the suit.

[Knife]

One would think that Palpatine would have engineered Qui-Gon's demise to remove him as a threat to his own relationship with Skywalker. Palpatine could then say it was the Jedi who killed him because he was pissing off the council.

That's if Anakin was apart of the original plan, which I don't think he was. Palpatine saw an opertunaty and took it.

Perhaps, but even as far back as TPM, Palpatine did note something special in Anakin. They even hint in RoTS that Palpy literally was the father Anakin never had when he first began training as a Jedi. So he's been in Anakin's life for a considerable time.

In terms of the events leading up and into TPM, no. Anakin was a lucky stroke, afterwards they definitly hinted at that Palpatine was definitly grooming Anakin as his apprentice.

Oh, I'm sure Palpy would have still seen the potential in Anakin, but with Qui Jon training him, I think Anakin's whole issue with attachment might have been handled different with Qui than it was with Obi.

Obi is a great Jedi and indeed wise, but he's also the Jedi posterboy. No attachment, no questions about the Order, etc....Qui Jon was more of the gray Jedi who did question the tenents of the Order and for the better. I beleive Anakin might have been a bit more emotionally stable after ~10 years of training than he was with Obi.

I doubt Palpy would have knocked off Qui Jon before ~10 or so years, can't exactly take a Jedi Padawan under his wing as the Chancelor and his role as 'mentor/fatherly figure' might have been fullfilled by Qui Jon so that might not be an opening and Palpy would have to try something different.

[Solauren]

I don't think Vader was really 'angry' in the movies.

Consider

A New Hope:
Captain Antilles: Execution of a Traitor
The Death Star guy; The guy was questioning Vader's power in the Force, or that the Force had any power at all. Vader was simply showing him that power in a way that would be difficult to dismiss

Empire Strikes Back
2 executions for incompetance, nothing more. That's apparently fairly standard proceedure in the Imperial military with the highest ranking officers. Hell', we've seen Mr. Cool as a Comet, Grand Admiral Thrawn, do it.
The only time he seemed pissed of was when Luke sliced his shoulder during there fight.


Return of the Jedi
The Emperor was around, no one would DARE screw up. Vader might choke you to death, but the Emperor seems the type to make you take your family and homeworld with you.

Force Choking seems to be a disciplinary method Vader uses that if he chooses, he can extend to execution. Kinda like sticking them on the rack, but much more effective, efficient, and more portable.

[18-Till-I-Die]

Why make this seperation between Anakin and Vader? In reality, if someone changes their name and starts wearing black, then goes on a murder spree no one says that.

That really is all that happened. He got a better costume, changed his name, and starting getting all pissy and moany.

But fine maybe sociopath is the wrong term. Anakin seems, to me, tojust not give a damn about anything he doesnt 'possess'.

But concded cause i probably used the term wrong and so you likely have me there.

Edit: also i'm going off the movies here, so the novels probably blow that out of the water, but i would have to defer to you guys there since i dont have the EU Clone Wars/PT books.

[Noble Ire]

Why make this seperation between Anakin and Vader? In reality, if someone changes their name and starts wearing black, then goes on a murder spree no one says that.

Yes, because in reality, there is a mystical power in the air that corrupts you when you do bad things, and lends skill and power to criminals.

As I pointed out, Yoda says it himself, when Anakin gave into Palpatine's influence, Vader was born, and took control of the body both inhabited, essentially killing Anakin and his moral core along with him. Everything he did from the purge of the Jedi Temple to that final fight with his son was doen under Vader's domination, and only the near-death of the only connection left to Anakin's past and family could lend him enough strength to take control back.

[18-Till-I-Die]

Its debatable as to weather the Dark Side is actually evil, from what i hear.

There are 'points of view' out there that the Force has no good or evil side, that its just energy, like magnetism or light, a tool that can be drawn upon.

Now then of course there is the traditional Jedi point of view, that Dark Side=evil.

I used to agree with that whole heartedly but i've read a bunch of stuff that says it may be only one aspect of the Force and not in and of itself evil so i cant surely say anymore.

If the Dark Side made Anakin this way then it has to be said the Force itself is responsible for most of this, but that assumes the Force has a 'will' of its own which may or may not be true. Otherwise the Force could have stopped Anakin or Palpatine. Its the same argument with Christianity, if you believe God does all the good things you must also accept he probably does or allows to happen all the bad things too.

I find it more probable that people are just evil or good on their own, and the Force is just an energy they can draw on. Some guy can use the Force for good while chucking around lightning and stuff, while another guy uses it for evil and power. In that point of view the Force is more like a gun, all by itself its harmless but in the hands of a person, for good or ill, it takes on the person's will. So if the person is evil, the Force is used for evil, if they're good then vice versa. This implies that people make their own fate without being 'corrupted' by anything.

Oi thats a long post...anyway, just something to consider that i've read from a whole bunch of places. Your milage may vary.

[Morilore]

Its debatable as to weather the Dark Side is actually evil, from what i hear.

There are 'points of view' out there that the Force has no good or evil side, that its just energy, like magnetism or light, a tool that can be drawn upon.

Now then of course there is the traditional Jedi point of view, that Dark Side=evil.

I used to agree with that whole heartedly but i've read a bunch of stuff that says it may be only one aspect of the Force and not in and of itself evil so i cant surely say anymore.

If the Dark Side made Anakin this way then it has to be said the Force itself is responsible for most of this, but that assumes the Force has a 'will' of its own which may or may not be true. Otherwise the Force could have stopped Anakin or Palpatine. Its the same argument with Christianity, if you believe God does all the good things you must also accept he probably does or allows to happen all the bad things too.

I find it more probable that people are just evil or good on their own, and the Force is just an energy they can draw on. Some guy can use the Force for good while chucking around lightning and stuff, while another guy uses it for evil and power. In that point of view the Force is more like a gun, all by itself its harmless but in the hands of a person, for good or ill, it takes on the person's will. So if the person is evil, the Force is used for evil, if they're good then vice versa. This implies that people make their own fate without being 'corrupted' by anything.

Oi thats a long post...anyway, just something to consider that i've read from a whole bunch of places. Your milage may vary.

Drug abuse can change someone's personality, so much so that one might say one becomes a different person, yet drugs are not considered sentient, nor must they have an "evil side."

[Eframepilot]

The dark side may not be strictly "evil", but there is clearly a lot of overlap. While one could theoretically use the dark side and still remain otherwise good, in practice it is almost impossible. Also, the dark side does physically exist beyond the choice of how to use power - witness the presence of the dark side in the tree and cave on Dagobah, independent of any active Force user.

I would say that Anakin and Vader are the same person. Anakin freely chose to become Vader, and Sidious and the dark side completely twisted him into Vader, but Anakin still bears as much responsibility for his actions as someone under the influence of alchohol or some even more dangerous drug that he freely took.

[NecronLord]

Makes you wonder how shit would have ended up if Qui Jon hadn't died at Naboo.

Given that Qui Gon seemed to be much more capable than Obi Wan as a father figure, rather than a brother, if he wasn't killed, I predict that Palpatine's effort at seduction would go down like this:

"You're the Sith Lord!" *Thud as Palpatine's head hits the floor*