Star Wars military query...

Murazor · Post by **Murazor** » 2006-03-31 04:55am

I have a number of questions about the Imperial military and although I suppose that I could found the answers I want skimming old threads, a quick search hasn't been all that helpful.

1) What is known about the Separatist OOB? I know that they turned whole worlds into droid factories and vaguely recall a quote in the ICS about "millions of warships" in the Outer Rim campaigns. Do we know anything else about their organization, the proportion of different ship classes in their forces and similar points? Is there information about major Separatist shipyards, bases and facilities? And even more important, do we know what happened with all those warships after the Clone Wars?

2) IIRC, Katarn completely destroyed the Dark Trooper project and the Balmorran models didn't appear until the Dark Empire era. What kind of battledroids were avalaible for the Empire some time before the battle of Hoth? In case of need, would the Empire be able to use the Separatist armies or all the battledroids were destroyed after the CW?

3) Among the twelve original Grand Admirals, IYO what four would Palpatine choose for a secret mission where loyalty and competence are at a premium? Declann seems a likely choice and Zaarin is a possible candidate (I am not certain of the moment of his rebellion), while Batch and Il-Raz are no runners, but I'm just not sure about the other eight.

4) What kind of force would Palpatine be able to assemble in secret without the Rebel Alliance or Vader knowing? I have heard that the Empire hid somewhere two hundred sector fleets, but I am not certain how high the level of secret concerning this was.

VT-16 · Post by **VT-16** » 2006-03-31 05:22am

They had smaller XR-85 battle droids. (Think turbolaser tower with threads.)
Some kind of BT-16 perimeter defense droid, too.

Anguirus · Post by **Anguirus** » 2006-03-31 11:14am

2) IIRC, Katarn completely destroyed the Dark Trooper project and the Balmorran models didn't appear until the Dark Empire era.

Not actually true. The SD-9s were considered OBSOLETE by DE. I don't have a hard time imagining Imperial troops using SD-7s or -8s around the time of ESB for heavy fire support. They are big things, more akin to destroyer droids in their role than battle droids when you compare them to the CIS forces.

And isn't the XR-85 enormous? They shrunk it down to a few meters tall in the video games, but the one in Dark Empire is twice as tall as an AT-AT.

Post by **NecronLord** » 2006-03-31 11:30am

The Dark Trooper project was a step beyond battle droids. It was to make exo-armour for limited-ability force users. Supposedly.

Agent Fisher · Post by **Agent Fisher** » 2006-03-31 11:50am

NecronLord wrote:The Dark Trooper project was a step beyond battle droids. It was to make exo-armour for limited-ability force users. Supposedly.

See, now thats funny, cause if it was just going to be exo-armour, why have phase I and II DTs?

Post by **NecronLord** » 2006-03-31 12:18pm

Agent Fisher wrote:See, now thats funny, cause if it was just going to be exo-armour, why have phase I and II DTs?

They were tests to develop the droid brain and equipment that was going to go into the phase III.

VT-16 · Post by **VT-16** » 2006-03-31 12:46pm

And isn't the XR-85 enormous? They shrunk it down to a few meters tall in the video games, but the one in Dark Empire is twice as tall as an AT-AT.

Yep, they're two different models. The one in the OT-era could be carried in a ''Sentinel'' LC along with several others, while the post-Endor one was made huge to save up on the number needed to be looked after in campaigns (with the disintegrating Empire and all).

Archon · Post by **Archon** » 2006-03-31 01:17pm

Re: The Grand Admirals...

Probably the four that were on the Death Star 2 with him.

Grand Admiral Declann
Grand Admiral Takel
Grand Admiral Teshik
Grand Admiral Makati

Anguirus · Post by **Anguirus** » 2006-03-31 02:18pm

See, now thats funny, cause if it was just going to be exo-armour, why have phase I and II DTs?

I actually had an idea about those the other day. Maybe they were insurance against some sort of re-emergence of the Jedi Order. They're armored with phrik, right? Lightsabres would be almost useless against even Phase 1s.

They'd also be great Vong-killers, no? Dark troopers in exo-armor directing the droids would be pretty tough to handle without heavy equipment.

Noble Ire · Post by **Noble Ire** » 2006-03-31 03:38pm

Archon wrote:Re: The Grand Admirals...

Probably the four that were on the Death Star 2 with him.

Grand Admiral Declann
Grand Admiral Takel
Grand Admiral Teshik
Grand Admiral Makati

Pecatti Syn might also make a good choice, as he regarded Palpatine as something of a religious figure, and was fanatically loyal to him.

What kind of force would Palpatine be able to assemble in secret without the Rebel Alliance or Vader knowing? I have heard that the Empire hid somewhere two hundred sector fleets, but I am not certain how high the level of secret concerning this was.

Well, Palpatine kept the first and second Death Star completely secret during their construction periods, no small feat, and he managed to assemble a massive fleet at Byss without anyone's knowledge after Endor. Essentially, I think you have pretty much free reign on the number.

nightmare · Post by **nightmare** » 2006-03-31 04:04pm

Murazor wrote:2) IIRC, Katarn completely destroyed the Dark Trooper project and the Balmorran models didn't appear until the Dark Empire era. What kind of battledroids were avalaible for the Empire some time before the battle of Hoth? In case of need, would the Empire be able to use the Separatist armies or all the battledroids were destroyed after the CW?

I don't really believe he destroyed the technology. Palpatine was simply furious over the loss and ordered all further research in darktroopers abandoned. So since the produced batch was pretty much gone, and they weren't allowed to build more... well.

Aside from the reviously mentioned SD series and XR-85, the Empire inherited all technology from the Clone Wars, both sides. I don't think much of the Separatists droid armies were actually used, probably for political reasons. They did make use of the spider droids.

Anguirus · Post by **Anguirus** » 2006-03-31 04:18pm

while the post-Endor one was made huge to save up on the number needed to be looked after in campaigns (with the disintegrating Empire and all).

That makes no sense. Of necessity they serve vastly different roles, though their forms may be very similar. (Scalable manufacturing)

They did make use of the spider droids.

Interesting, when was that?

nightmare · Post by **nightmare** » 2006-03-31 04:42pm

Anguirus wrote:
while the post-Endor one was made huge to save up on the number needed to be looked after in campaigns (with the disintegrating Empire and all).
That makes no sense. Of necessity they serve vastly different roles, though their forms may be very similar. (Scalable manufacturing)

The small XR-85 was a success, so they built a larger version of it. Well, that's EU anyway.

They did make use of the spider droids.

Anguirus wrote:Interesting, when was that?

ROTS Visual Dictionary. The stuff about the Empire getting the Separatist's droids can also be read on sw.com.

Anguirus · Post by **Anguirus** » 2006-03-31 04:58pm

Sigh. EU. Might as well say that the AT-AT just existed to save on the number of robo-pets the Emperor goes through. The scale difference is similar.

Noble Ire · Post by **Noble Ire** » 2006-03-31 06:11pm

Anguirus wrote:Sigh. EU. Might as well say that the AT-AT just existed to save on the number of robo-pets the Emperor goes through. The scale difference is similar.

What are you talking about?

Anguirus · Post by **Anguirus** » 2006-04-01 11:01am

The mini XR-85 is to the giant XR-85 what the Emperor's robo-dog is to the AT-AT, scale-wise. They do not and cannot play the same role.

It's not a great analogy...it was late and I was tired. Rather, it's like pulling all the M1 tanks out of the Middle East because they're too hard to keep track of and replacing them with one gigantic tank that can somehow do everything that all the little tanks were capable of doing.

Cykeisme · Post by **Cykeisme** » 2006-04-01 12:03pm

Murazor wrote:2) IIRC, Katarn completely destroyed the Dark Trooper project and the Balmorran models didn't appear until the Dark Empire era. What kind of battledroids were avalaible for the Empire some time before the battle of Hoth? In case of need, would the Empire be able to use the Separatist armies or all the battledroids were destroyed after the CW?

Agent Fisher wrote:
NecronLord wrote:The Dark Trooper project was a step beyond battle droids. It was to make exo-armour for limited-ability force users. Supposedly.

See, now thats funny, cause if it was just going to be exo-armour, why have phase I and II DTs?

Ah, here's the funny thing. Dark Troopers and Darktroopers are apparently two diffeerent things, both from an out-of-universe and an SoD perspective. One refers to Force-sensitive soldiers mentioned in DE, the other is Rom Mohc's project. I'm sure others know DE better than I do, so I'll stick to describing what I know about the exo-armor.

In the latest retcon, Rom Mohc is a career soldier who has an obsession with meeting his enemies in personal combat. During the Clone Wars, he supposedly took on and destroyed a number of Separatist battle droids in hand-to-hand combat. The Dark Trooper project was the brainchild of Rom Mohc, who intended to improve the effectiveness of human (clone or otherwise) troopers. The Empire wouldn't go back to battle droids when clones were found to be superior, and Rom Mohc was obsessed with the idea of men meeting their foes on the field of battle anyway.

The Phase I and II were merely testbeds to test the structure, armor and weapon systems. The Phase III exo-armor, crewed by a living human pilot, was the actual end result of the program, although in the end only one was produced before the Arc Hammer was destroyed.

There's information on this in Wookiepedia, including, I believe, a link to an interview with LucasArts' Justin Chin, who came up with the Dark Trooper idea.

Edit: Okay, this is strange. The Wiki states that Stormtrooper-piloted Phase IIIs were intended to complement Phase IIs. However, Justin Chin specifically said that the ultimate goal of Rom Mohc was to create the ultimate weapon without eliminating the human factor from the warrior.. never to return to battle droids.
That's author's intent, which is low, but then again I can't ascertain the source of the contradictory information. Puzzling.

VT-16 · Post by **VT-16** » 2006-04-01 05:03pm

They do not and cannot play the same role.

Who said anything about same role? The big, post-Endor version came out due to the fragmentation of the Empire, where individual factions wanted less units to keep track of and more autonymous ones. It's not meant to do the same as the small version, just be a menace and be so sparingly.

Connor MacLeod · Post by **Connor MacLeod** » 2006-04-01 05:55pm

You folks realize there are like a metric buttload of kinds of "Dark Troopers" in Star Wars right?

In addition to the Darktroopers from Dark Forces, ,there were also the Dark Empire darktroopers (stormtroopers with black armor and Force sensitivity) as well as the Force-sensitive battle-armored ones from the Rebellion game.

There were also what, Cybernetic Darktroopers from one of the mor erecent SW games I believe.

Lazarus · Post by **Lazarus** » 2006-04-02 06:11am

Star Wars Battlefront 1 and 2 features Dark Troopers as the equivalent of Republic ARC troopers.
Are we really trying to justify an artists mistake in scaling by saying the two models of the vehicle are in fact seperate designs that just happen to look exactly the same but are completely different sizes? Just put it down to the 'cloudy window' thing.

VT-16 · Post by **VT-16** » 2006-04-02 07:35am

Are we really trying to justify an artists mistake in scaling by saying the two models of the vehicle are in fact seperate designs that just happen to look exactly the same but are completely different sizes?

Why so surprised? The LM-432 crab droid had a similar history (one tiny model for espionage, one for anti-personnel duty and a huge model for tank duty), as well as the Octuptarra and tri droid (anti-personnel and artillery, respectively). Only difference is, they were made simultanously.

nightmare · Post by **nightmare** » 2006-04-02 09:52am

Connor MacLeod wrote:You folks realize there are like a metric buttload of kinds of "Dark Troopers" in Star Wars right?

In addition to the Darktroopers from Dark Forces, ,there were also the Dark Empire darktroopers (stormtroopers with black armor and Force sensitivity) as well as the Force-sensitive battle-armored ones from the Rebellion game.

There were also what, Cybernetic Darktroopers from one of the mor erecent SW games I believe.

Nothing says they are different ones far as I know. The DE Darktroopers fit the description of Phase III quite well, only they are missing the exosuits. DF and Rebellion Darktroopers are Phase III. The new ones I haven't heard of.

Post by **NecronLord** » 2006-04-02 10:35am

For the 'force sensative dark troopers' bit, I am mostly thinking of Star Wars Supremacy (Rebellion in the US) that showed images of Phase 3s as the final Imperial ground troop development, and said they had force sensatives inside them.

nightmare · Post by **nightmare** » 2006-04-02 06:26pm

While we're on the subject of Imperial battle droids...

Lazarus · Post by **Lazarus** » 2006-04-07 05:57am

Ok, that just looks stupid. What level of canon is this?

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