Doomsday Machine from TOS VS. ISD

omegaLancer · Post by **omegaLancer** » 2002-12-08 11:12am

I remember the episode, the Enterprise was not destroy and neither was her sister ship by the world killer cannon. Which means that the world destroyer battery is not even in the range of a single ISD's boardside.

SWPIGWANG · Post by **SWPIGWANG** » 2002-12-09 03:19pm

No no, that means the connie can withstand planetkiller level firepower....

VF5SS · Post by **VF5SS** » 2002-12-09 03:53pm

SWPIGWANG wrote:No no, that means the connie can withstand planetkiller level firepower....

Proove that it was a full power blast

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2002-12-09 03:55pm

VF5SS wrote:
SWPIGWANG wrote:No no, that means the connie can withstand planetkiller level firepower....
Proove that it was a full power blast

Ah, there's a GOOD point now isn't it? Maybe we haven't seen the planet killer at full power or using its full potential. Perhaps it was on some kind of energy saver mode and wasn't extering its full power due to malfunctions (The thing was millennia old)

There's a nice hint for fans of Star Crossed.

VF5SS · Post by **VF5SS** » 2002-12-09 04:07pm

Well I had always thought that after having just blown up a planet, the PK must've been still charging up and probably only used a little bit of its total charge to attack the Enterprise. It might be that the PK only recieve enough power to charge up its gun and get to another planet. Wasn't it trying to haul ass away from the two Connies?

SpyderGS · Post by **SpyderGS** » 2002-12-09 04:12pm

Stravo wrote:
VF5SS wrote:
SWPIGWANG wrote:No no, that means the connie can withstand planetkiller level firepower....
Proove that it was a full power blast
Ah, there's a GOOD point now isn't it? Maybe we haven't seen the planet killer at full power or using its full potential. Perhaps it was on some kind of energy saver mode and wasn't extering its full power due to malfunctions (The thing was millennia old)

There's a nice hint for fans of Star Crossed.

LOL Powersave mode! Just don't try to photocopy anything. Somehting that old would definitely jam. Then it wouldn't be of any use in Starcrossed!

omegaLancer · Post by **omegaLancer** » 2002-12-10 12:12am

Why it just ate a whole planet, it should have had energy to spare. And we are not talking about single shot, both ships survived multiple hits.

In the case of the first starship it had not consume the planet till after the crew abandon ship and beam down, so if any thing the AP supply should have been at it peak.

Even the most stupid AI would have ramp up the power, seeing that after firing a low power burst that the enemy space ship was still active and attacking.

In any case if age was a problem with it battle with the Enterprise, the same factor must be apply to combat with any ISD.

The Anti proton beam of the World killer could not have been any more powerful than even a single MTL, if it was then the Enterprise would have been toast.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2002-12-10 12:26am

omegaLancer wrote:Why it just ate a whole planet, it should have had energy to spare. And we are not talking about single shot, both ships survived multiple hits.

It does not have a planet-killer beam. It has no need of a planet-killer beam to do what it does, so the only reason to assume it has a planet-killer beam is Trekkie-wanking.

Not to be the cold voice of soulless science here, but in order to chop up a planet, you do NOT need enormously powerful weapons; what you need is enormously powerful tractor beams. The removal of a chunk of planet from its host is mostly a matter of extracting it from the gravity well, since that far exceeds the energy requirement to crack its solid bonds with surrounding matter.

Blasting it would be pointless; that only increases the entropy production of the process and decreases the likelihood of clean energy collection. The "Doomsday Machine" is nothing more than a gigantic trash disposal unit with some light guns for self-defense.

It was killed by a 98 megaton blast, for chrissakes! What part of this don't the Trekkies understand?

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2002-12-10 12:34am

Don't worry Mike.. You'll always be the cold soulless voice of science to me!

SWPIGWANG · Post by **SWPIGWANG** » 2002-12-10 12:46am

Lets just say the energy output needed to break part the planet into pieces out of the gravity well in any reaonsable amount of time is huge.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2002-12-10 12:49am

SWPIGWANG wrote:Lets just say the energy output needed to break part the planet into pieces out of the gravity well in any reaonsable amount of time is huge.

Go back and read my post again.

Marcus · Post by **Marcus** » 2002-12-10 12:53am

Do we have any information on how long it takes said planet-eating-monster to disassemble, and consume, a planet?

Or for that matter, how thorough such destruction is?

As for the blast that took it out... yes, it is apparent that not unlike some other fictional very large, very mean things, it has a weak spot (though, granted, more glaring than a womp-rat sized exhaust port)

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2002-12-10 01:06am

Marcus wrote:Do we have any information on how long it takes said planet-eating-monster to disassemble, and consume, a planet?

Or for that matter, how thorough such destruction is?

As for the blast that took it out... yes, it is apparent that not unlike some other fictional very large, very mean things, it has a weak spot (though, granted, more glaring than a womp-rat sized exhaust port)

Certainly a much easier target to hit from a distance, particularly with nothing but those feeble bug-spray beams to protect it. After all, a Fed torpedo is too bulky to make that womp-rat sized turn anyway, but who the hell's going to miss a mile-wide mouth?

omegaLancer · Post by **omegaLancer** » 2002-12-10 01:09am

for what it matter, unlike the feddies, turbolasers are design to cut thru Neutronium base material. One heavy TL is equal to the 1000's of feddies warships that spock claim it would take..

SPOOFE · Post by **SPOOFE** » 2002-12-10 04:59am

Even the most stupid AI would have ramp up the power, seeing that after firing a low power burst that the enemy space ship was still active and attacking.

What sort of AI did the planet-killer have? Perhaps it only had one possible response to any sort of target, be it planet (fuel) or spaceship (enemy): Carve it up and eat it. Perhaps, following a very basic programming algorithm, the PK was just using enough power to slowly slice the Enterprise to pieces.

omegaLancer · Post by **omegaLancer** » 2002-12-10 05:30am

following that logic, when it failed to slice the enterprise in half and gobble the pieces it should have double the power. the first blast almost destroy the enterprise, the second should have finished her.

But this is not the case. It appear that even shot fired was at the same strenght. Following that logic. In an exchange with an ISD, the PK would start small while the ISD has free reign to blow it to pieces...

Either way the PK doesnot stand a chance, it either doesnot have the firepower or it never get to use it do to poor programing.

Kurgan · Post by **Kurgan** » 2002-12-10 08:56am

Vader would just choke the Doomsday Machine from afar.

Oops.. sorry, wrong debate! =)

paladin · Post by **paladin** » 2002-12-10 05:33pm

SPOOFE wrote:
Even the most stupid AI would have ramp up the power, seeing that after firing a low power burst that the enemy space ship was still active and attacking.
What sort of AI did the planet-killer have? Perhaps it only had one possible response to any sort of target, be it planet (fuel) or spaceship (enemy): Carve it up and eat it. Perhaps, following a very basic programming algorithm, the PK was just using enough power to slowly slice the Enterprise to pieces.

I think the PK's AI was limited. It would go after the Enterprise only when it was within a certain distance. I don't remember what that distance was.

omegaLancer · Post by **omegaLancer** » 2002-12-11 12:00am

I agree Paladin, the Programing did not even allow the PK to defend itself effectivily. Seeing this there is no way that it stand a chance against an ISD.

First the shielding of the ISD allow it to withstand the AP beam, just look at the fact that federation star vessels engage the PK without being destroyed.

The weapon of an ISD can melt Neutronium base alloys.

The AI of the PK is not sophicated enought to devise an effective attack and defense.

T-1000 · Post by **T-1000** » 2002-12-11 01:07pm

Darth Wong wrote:OK T-1000, you're trying to pretend that your theory fits the facts better. Let's check that assumption, shall we?

Known data:

1) planets are reduced to rubble
2) planet-killer cannot withstand a 100 megaton explosion

Theory 1: planet-killer violently shatters planet with an energy beam vastly more intense than a 100 megaton explosion, and then achieves complete matter/energy conversion of most of the planet's mass before it hurls away, absorbing energy (again) at vastly greater rates than it would absorb during a 100 megaton blast. Predicts a rapidly expanding debris field and near-instantaneous death for all occupants of a destroyed planet.

Theory 2: planet-killer slowly tears planet to pieces bit by bit, leaving a large debris field consisting of much of the planet's mass and extracting as many useful materials from it as possible. Predicts a slow-moving debris field and significant survival time for occupants of a destroyed planet. Also fits laws of physics more easily than theory 1.

Sorry, but while you may say that your theory fits the facts better, it does not.

Actually, in hindsight, you're probably right. I saw that episode again recently, and I remember this one quote that Decker gave.

"We saw this thing, hovering over the planet surface, slicing out..chunks of it with a force beam."

Under this statement, I would have to agree that the PK most likely did not blow up the entire planet in a single shot. Oh well, live and learn.

Well gee, since it's science fiction, obviously I can't explain the total processes of the Planet Killer.

Feeble cop-out alert. When faced with the fact that his theory is scientifically far less feasible, he simply resorts to the "it's sci-fi so it doesn't have to make sense" excuse. Bzzzttt! You lose.[/quote]

No, this is me stating that I never said I knew how the PK worked so I'm not going to pretend that I now know. As for my original theory, I have to admit that it doesn't fit the testimony given in the episode.

SPOOFE · Post by **SPOOFE** » 2002-12-11 05:47pm

following that logic, when it failed to slice the enterprise in half and gobble the pieces it should have double the power.

Not really. As you said, the first shot almost destroyed the Enterprise. The PK could be designed to use, say, ten shots over the course of five minutes to take out a target the size of the Enterprise.

Either way, an anti-proton beam can only be effective if it hits a target that has protons in it... and energy shields, simply, don't.

StarDestroyer.Net BBS

Doomsday Machine from TOS VS. ISD

anti proton beam

energy saver mode.

Re: energy saver mode.

who needs a weak point

problem there was no piece

I agree the worst AI ever