Is Thrawn Evil?

Post by **Kuja** » 2002-07-29 12:11pm

Read 'Darth Maul: Shadow Hunter'

A guy was working at the Jedi Temple, good job, then he had a son who turned out to be force-sensitive. The Jedi took the kid over hsi protests and then kicked him out so that he wouldn't get any more attached.

And we think of the Jedi as heros, and Thrawn as evil?

Vapthorne · Post by **Vapthorne** » 2002-07-29 04:15pm

IG-88E: That's exactly the issue. When we examine Thrawn's crimes we got to remember that the 'good guys' have committed similar acts, but often people don't consider them because overall, they're the heroes and their sins are forgiven and ignored.

When objectively figuring out whether or not Thrawn (or any other character) is good or evil, we need to understand what their motives were when we list their crimes; remember in nobody's self-mind do they see themselves as villians or evil (unless they are written by crappy authors) And, justing saying what they done is evil is not enough (despite whether we agree or not).

Just a thought when looking at this.

Crown · Post by **Crown** » 2002-07-29 11:26pm

I am not sure what to say Lusankya? However I will try one last time;

Originally posted by Lusankya
a) what do the New Republic's actions after the war have to do with Thrawn's actions? Thrawn did not initiate the conflict - that was already there when he arrived. What was he supposed to do? Rock up on Coruscant and say, "Hello, I'm one of the Emperor's secret military geniuses. Let's be friends."???????

In a word...Yes. Read Zahn's duology and you will see that is exactly what Pellaeon proposed and did. The New Republic could hardly not accept this, if indeed they were after peace. But they did and peace was achieved. So I feel that this point in particular is moot.

btw. last I checked, the New Republis was still intending to bring democracy to the galaxy, after about 15 years, and the leaders were mainly rebel leaders... can you say favouritism?

Can you say war heroes who are popular to the masses? Need I go on? Well incase you are still inclined to disagree I will leave you with two words: George Washington.

b) It matters not where a military agressive force comes from. If one is there, then there exists a military agressive force. You can hardly say "Well, Iraq has an army, but America does because they're on our side...." And a civil war is still a war.

It does and you know it. The Empire is a parody of facists Germany, it has been styled that way from the begining. Are you now trying to argue that the Allies were evil for stopping this state from continuing to harm innocents? I never claimed America to be on any higher moral ground than any one else so that statement is irrelavent, if anything America has a few skeletons in the closet that do need to be aired and countered with ie Kissenger (spelling?). However we are moving off topic again.

You are clutiching at straws and you know it

Originally posted by IG-88E
Read 'Darth Maul: Shadow Hunter'

A guy was working at the Jedi Temple, good job, then he had a son who turned out to be force-sensitive. The Jedi took the kid over hsi protests and then kicked him out so that he wouldn't get any more attached.

I am not too sure on this... I always thought that he was proud and happy when his son was admitted for training, however pissed off when the order said that he couldn't see his son while he was being trained. I feel that this is a bit irrelevant also, since we have at least two casses of jedi being allowed to leave the order and resume their normal lives had they not been taken to the temple; Count Dooku and Qui Gon's apprentice Xarvos(?), do you believe Thrawn would have allowed Jacen/Jaina to do the same?

I repeat again;

Thrawn is an evil bastard...But he is our evil bastard!

Post by **Kuja** » 2002-07-29 11:41pm

Quote: I am not too sure on this... I always thought that he was proud and happy when his son was admitted for training, however pissed off when the order said that he couldn't see his son while he was being trained. I feel that this is a bit irrelevant also, since we have at least two casses of jedi being allowed to leave the order and resume their normal lives had they not been taken to the temple; Count Dooku and Qui Gon's apprentice Xarvos(?), do you believe Thrawn would have allowed Jacen/Jaina to do the same?

He WAS proud...then they told him he could never see his son again, because attachment is forbiddon for a Jedi. They essentially dumped him out on the street with no job and no family.

(sarcasm) Yes, Dooku and Xanatos are greatexamples of what to do with your life aren't they? I especially like the fact that Xanatos killed himself just to get at Qui-Gon. (sarcasm off)

Crown · Post by **Crown** » 2002-07-29 11:58pm

Originally posted by IG-88E
(sarcasm) Yes, Dooku and Xanatos are greatexamples of what to do with your life aren't they? I especially like the fact that Xanatos killed himself just to get at Qui-Gon. (sarcasm off)

No one is arguing that, all that I am saying is that they were allowed to leave the order! Does Thrawn allow defections?

Post by **Mr Bean** » 2002-07-30 12:02am

Yes as a matter of fact he does

Its called RETIRMENT

Evil Empire or Not, Evil Alien hating, world destroying mass-murders, The Mob they are not

If you say you want to go off and write your memories after five,ten years of work, they let you

Crown · Post by **Crown** » 2002-07-30 12:07am

Oh Mr Bean please site one example where a young, intelligent, powerfull and useful person has been allowed to retire by Thrawn.

Post by **Kuja** » 2002-07-30 12:10am

Xanatos wasn't allowed to leave the Order, he was a traitor! Qui-Gon never stopped trying to bring him back until he killed himself.

Dooku announced his resignation and dropped out of sight for years.

Crown · Post by **Crown** » 2002-07-30 12:15am

Originally posted by IG-88E
Xanatos wasn't allowed to leave the Order, he was a traitor! Qui-Gon never stopped trying to bring him back until he killed himself.

No he was allowed to leave, it saddened Qui-Gon, however he never tried to force him against his will. He was a traitor because he took up arms against his master and the order and fell to the Dark side. Really that is quite obvious.

Dooku announced his resignation and dropped out of sight for years.

So what? So he dropped out of sight, big deal, he was allowed to leave without fear of prosecution!

Lusankya · Post by **Lusankya** » 2002-07-30 12:18am

In a word... Yes . Read Zahn's duology and you will see that is exactly what Pellaeon proposed and did. The New Republic could hardly not accept this, if indeed they were after peace. But they did and peace was achieved. So I feel that this point in particular is moot.

You do realise that 15 years separated these two events, don't you???????? Pellaeon had been fighting a losing battle for 20 years of his life, and you think it's some great miracle that he's sick of war!!! Fact is, Pellaeon realised that the empire was going to lose, and surrendered because that way there would still be an empire in the future. If you remember the book at all, you might know that Pellaeon did what he thought Thrawn would have done.

When Thrawn was fighting, the EMpire still controlled a decent proportion of the galaxy, the Rebels had not been on Coruscant for long and were still an untried government. Thrawn knew that he needed a strong government to protect the galaxy from all of the nasties he had been fighting, and restoring imperial power was the simplest option: he already had a command system in place, the government was legitimate etc. The rebellion, on the other hand was a new government. It still needed to install a bureaucracy, write a constitution, enseure that there were no splits after the main enemy was eliminated.

And of course, it was going to have a Senate, [sarcasm] and Episode I showed us how well that would react to a military threat.[/sarcasm]

Can you say war heroes who are popular to the masses? Need I go on? Well incase you are still inclined to disagree I will leave you with two words: George Washington.

YOu use one example of a war hero who went on the be a good peacetime leader. I have a few more words to throw back at you: Mao Zedong, Chiang Kai-Shek, who led the French Resistance?? I don't remember, but him... I could go on some more if you like.

No one is arguing that, all that I am saying is that they were allowed to leave the order! Does Thrawn allow defections?

not during war time, when the defectors might have critical information. We don't know what he's like in peacetime, since he was murdered before that could occur.

Take a hint here, Crown. We have to take Thrawn's actions in the context of his situation. Killing a man while he's sleeping the night before he recieves the Nobel Peace Prize would be considered "evil", but killing the same man a week later because he's attacking you with a scythe would be considered perfectly justified.

Post by **Kuja** » 2002-07-30 12:19am

Quote: Oh Mr Bean please site one example where a young, intelligent, powerfull and useful person has been allowed to retire by Thrawn.

Site one example where he hunted down a retiree.

Post by **Mr Bean** » 2002-07-30 12:22am

Oh Mr Bean please site one example where a young, intelligent, powerfull and useful person has been allowed to retire by Thrawn.

Hmm the General C"Boath killed, The Prince-Admiral that used to work under Thrawn when he was still in the Unknow regions when Thrawn came back to power he let him stay as a ruler of those planets, Bascily reterment

He has not had that many chances to be honset, He never saddly lived long enough for it come up for the most part

Crown · Post by **Crown** » 2002-07-30 12:26am

IG-88E Okie-dokey! Snootir Fell, Mara Jade. Ooops there's two! And I don't need to, Mr Bean was the one who claimed this and ergo it's his responcibility to prove it!

Mr Bean Thrawn let him continue to do the work he was already doing and this to you means retirement? Hmmm.

Post by **Kuja** » 2002-07-30 12:34am

Thrawn didn't hunt down Fel or Jade! Ysanne Isard caught Fel, then handed him off to Thrawn.

MJ was captured by a VSD captain under his own volition.

Lusankya · Post by **Lusankya** » 2002-07-30 12:35am

mara Jade tried to kill Thrawn on one occasion. She then decided that THrawn wasn't a "real" Imperial, because he had different social aims than the Emperor and helped the Rebellion because of it.

Snootir Fel was being cloned by Thrawn to make his clone army. He was an Imp, joined the rebellion and then disappeared because he went to work for Thrawn. He was sitting around having tea and biscuits or some such with the Chiss in the duology, remember????? So he didn't even retire.... hmmm.... I don't really see why you mentioned him. Oh well.

Mr Bean was the one who claimed this and ergo it's his responcibility to prove it!

Certainly Mr Bean should be able to prove his own claims, but why can't we prove his claims too??? He hasn't told me not to prove his claims.

Post by **Mr Bean** » 2002-07-30 12:45am

Thrawn let him continue to do the work he was already doing and this to you means retirement? Hmmm

You misunderstand me, He was an officer under Thrawn and the two disagreed about somthing , rather violently , so he requested a Transfer out of Thrawns command and years later set himself up as leader of a few worlds, Declared himself Prince-Admiral(Somthing he had no business doing, Captian is the best he could claim to be)

He had a number of Captial ships crewed and Commanded by IMPERAL Officers, He had near as many Captials ships as he did planets so he was not exactly sweeting bullets about possbile rebellions or Rebel incursion
Well Thrawn came back, took one look-up at the set-up he had and DID NOT TOUCH HIM

Despite the fact he was playing big for his boots, Bascily calling himself more than he was and in what ammounted to retirment(He was not ordered there he took it himself and set himself up as head of the goverment)

From all indcations during Thrawns rule except for some request for supplies and matiral, Thrawn never strip him of his ships nor did he as he had to right, have him killed

Nope he just left him there

Crown · Post by **Crown** » 2002-07-30 12:55am

It appears that we are falling down the very slippery slope of idiocy and flat out lies. Lets change that shall we.

First IG-88E

You asked me to site one example where Thrawn would not allow someone who was still useful to him to simply retire. Thrawn did hunt down Fel, it was stated in the duology, when Mara asked Fel; 'Wasn't that Isard?' he sorted contempt and responded 'Ofcourse not, do you believe she had the ability to be that subtle?' Or something to that affect, lie disproven.

As for Jade's case, the original reason to include her was because, when she was under his authority, after she was captured, she given a choice. Work for me willingly or get mind-rapped by C'boath into whatever twisted image he wants you to be.

Now Lusankya

mara Jade tried to kill Thrawn on one occasion. She then decided that THrawn wasn't a "real" Imperial, because he had different social aims than the Emperor and helped the Rebellion because of it.

So funny LOL! Yes Mara did try and kill Thrawn, however as she explained to Thrawn, she was no one, who else but a Grand Admiral would even know of her existance, and I do believe that as mentioned above, Thrawn's little ultimatum to Mara, before she tried to kill him would have had some influence on her decision, wouldn't you agree?

Certainly Mr Bean should be able to prove his own claims, but why can't we prove his claims too??? He hasn't told me not to prove his claims.

Oh, I have no problem with you or anyone proving it, however I don't see why I should have to disprove an assumption, as IG-88E suggested;

Originally posted by IG-88E
Quote: Oh Mr Bean please site one example where a young, intelligent, powerfull and useful person has been allowed to retire by Thrawn.

Site one example where he hunted down a retiree.

Clears that up I hope?

Lusankya · Post by **Lusankya** » 2002-07-30 01:00am

Actively recruiting someone is not the same as hunting them down. And Fel wasn't forced into joining Thrawn.

Crown · Post by **Crown** » 2002-07-30 01:09am

Once again, I mentioned him because he wasn't allowed to retire from the Empire, he and his entire family were kidnapped by Thrawn. Hmmm another kidnapping case. Seems to be Thrawns modus operandi....

Mr Bean Well you did use him to state as an example as some one Thrawn allowed to retire didn't you?

Lusankya · Post by **Lusankya** » 2002-07-30 01:12am

No, he wasn't allowed to retire from the empire. He was a soldier who defected.

Then Thrawn convinced him to rejoin the empire.

Crown · Post by **Crown** » 2002-07-30 01:12am

Ooops caught myself in a lie, the ultimatume, came after Mara tried to kill Thrawn for using and betraying her, point still stands though.

Crown · Post by **Crown** » 2002-07-30 01:13am

Point is, still that we have never been shown one example where someone useful to Thrawn was simply allowed to retire.

Lusankya · Post by **Lusankya** » 2002-07-30 01:13am

Well, in that case, Thrawn was remerkably generous to allow her that choice then.

Crown · Post by **Crown** » 2002-07-30 01:15am

Generous for allowing her to have free will? Generous because as an evil person, he really didn't need to give her a choice? Is this a concession or just poor choice of words

?

Lusankya · Post by **Lusankya** » 2002-07-30 01:16am

Crown wrote:Point is, still that we have never been shown one example where someone useful to Thrawn was simply allowed to retire.

WE also haven't seen Thrawn when there wasn't a war on.

Do you know what that word means? war???

StarDestroyer.Net BBS

Is Thrawn Evil?

Is Grand Admiral Thrawn evil?