Upper limit photon torpedoes...

[Marcus]

Yes, but can we get reliable calculations of firepower on those cows?

~mental image of a gargantuan, intergalactic bovine with multi-petaton eyebeams, on a rampage through various mainstream fictional universes~

Now, thats an amusing image.

[TheDarkling]

Darth Wong: No Wong I just don't think I know better than everyone else, something you don't seem to agree with.
I have already said it before you put your own opinion of their laws of physics above their opinion however they should be more familiar with those laws than we are, there are numerous things ni trek which don't conform to are understanding of physics however you don't have the luxury of ignoring those once we ave seen them in action but anything you can escape with "I know better than they do" you will do.

You don't have to give up on modern physics, it should be the first place to go but you should also recognise in universe events that over rule it.

[omegaLancer]

Problem dark is that nothing in star trek show that Antimatter in the Trekie universe is any more powerful than normal anti matter. In fact is seem weaker..

While trekie's tech have many items that defy logic ( phasers, transporter, etc) antimatter seem to maintain the same properties. Example violent reaction to matter.

Never do we see a photon torpedo shatter a planet with a single missile, hell it has problem vaporizating a small asteroid or destroying an unshielded warship.

What proof is there of this umber, gravity defying, variable yield, ultra potent antimatter. None that I can see...

[TheDarkling]

omegaLancer: I'm not saying I agree with the thread starter (nice thread hijack by the way Wong) all I'm saying is if canon over rules real science we have to go with canon and there is an incident involving a chemical reaction more powerful than antimatter could ever hope to be (plus an over estimation of antimatter power in one incident), therefore saying torps are weak because they are outdone by a chemical reaction isn't correct when it comes to trek.

[Galaxy]

You can't complain that photon torps don't look 64 megatons when turbolasers don't look that strong either.


*notices a group of lit torches approaching*

[omegaLancer]

But the original post was that Photon torpedoes had a massive amount of Antimatter in them. 1000's of Tons.

So far the only proof is some weird dischords on what isotons may be. No examples of an a physical value in either kilogram or metric tons as per a qoute from the show.

Even a single ton would be a big different, the visual donot seem to back this.

I can see a variable yield, add more or less via automated or robotic means, but the fact that the max amount of Antimatter used in Photon torpedoes never seem to exceed a few kilogram.

Saying that the rules of physics in the Trekieverse is different is a cheap way out. we may as will say he could be right if pigs flys and angels dance on pin heads. Nothing backs the agruement No Cannon proof..

[Cpt_Frank]

You can't complain that photon torps don't look 64 megatons when turbolasers don't look that strong either.

Are you blind?

Diameter of Asteroid: 40m absolute minimum.
This gives us 16000 terajoules as low-end figure for vaporisation.
Concession accepted.[/img]

[TheDarkling]

I'm not saying that Photon torps have tons of antimatter in them I was just combating the notion that photon torps must be weaker than a simple chemical reaction by pointing out that in ST chemical reactions aren't always weak.

On the issue of antimatter limiting a photons energy - this isn't true they could have some weird technobabble like Q torps or function like the subspace energytap that many people feel the warp core is.

Basically we should go off of the observed yields and not limiting factors such as amount of antimatter etc - the observed yields fit within these constraits most of the time anyway so its more or less a non issue.

[SPOOFE]

Wayne Poe brought up the very first thought that entered into my head... based on the structure of Seven's statement ("Voyager's torpedo inventory; 32 photon torpedo complement, maximum yield 200 isotons."), it looks like she's stating that the maximum amount of damage that Voyager can unleash is 200 isotons, if they detonated the entirety of their ammo.

Compare:

Voyager's torpedo inventory:
-32 photon torpedo complement
-maximum yield 200 isotons.

With:

Voyager's torpedo inventory: 32 photon torpedo complement, maximum yield 200 isotons each

Considering that, later in the series, a yield of 200 isotons for a single weapon is met with surprise or scorn, I find it doubtful that the 200 isoton number refers to each individual warhead. The sentence is not structured in that regard, and the former interpretation is in-line with the bulk of remaining evidence from the rest of the series.

Of course, what does this mean, if we want to make the former interpretation fall in line with interpretations from the DS9 tech manual? It either means that each of Voyager's torpedoes have a maximum yield that's 1/6 that of the maximum yield of DS9-era torps, OR... that Starfleet ships, possibly, don't carry a ready amount of anti-matter to supply all of their torpedoes at once? We already know that photorps are stored devoid of antimatter for safety reasons and are only filled just prior to launch... if we assume that each of Voyager's torps has a maximum yield of 25 isotons, this simply means that Voyager only keeps a ready supply of "combat antimatter" to arm 8 torps at once.

If this is the case, it poses interesting possibilities for other Starfleet vessels if they follow the same tactic. Perhaps the reason why TNG-era ships have had such slow photorp launch rates (compared to, say, an Akira) was not due to any launcher design, but because they simply didn't have a ready store of "combat anti-matter" ready to arm their torpedoes?

An interesting theory, I think. Although I am drunk, so forgive the possibility that I'm just rambling.

[Ender]

Spoofe: Another possibility is that the torp substitute that they came up with is inferior.

[Typhonis 1]

Could Seven of nines 200 isoton maximun yield statement mean the throw weight of Voyagers offensive arnament in one battery round as in all weapons fiing at the same target at the same time

[TheDarkling]

Here is the exact wording.

Voyager's weapons inventory.
Photon Torpedo compliment 32 class six warhead explosive yield 200 isotons.

[Durandal]

I'm not saying that Photon torps have tons of antimatter in them I was just combating the notion that photon torps must be weaker than a simple chemical reaction by pointing out that in ST chemical reactions aren't always weak.

And completely disregarding known chemical and physical law.

On the issue of antimatter limiting a photons energy - this isn't true they could have some weird technobabble like Q torps or function like the subspace energytap that many people feel the warp core is.

The warp core is powered by matter/antimatter reactions. This is believable and stated onscreen numerous times. Quantum torpedoes, as far as visual evidence is concerned, are nothing more than photon torpedoes set to "blue."

Basically we should go off of the observed yields and not limiting factors such as amount of antimatter etc - the observed yields fit within these constraits most of the time anyway so its more or less a non issue.

We are going off of observed yields, and they are pathetically weak, indicating that there isn't a whole lot of reactant or that the reaction is extremely inefficient. Photon torpedoes always detonate with explosions similar to modern-day chemical warheads, indicating that they simply aren't as strong as Trekkies want them to be.

[Darth Servo]

Darth Wong: No Wong I just don't think I know better than everyone else, something you don't seem to agree with.
I have already said it before you put your own opinion of their laws of physics above their opinion however they should be more familiar with those laws than we are, there are numerous things ni trek which don't conform to are understanding of physics however you don't have the luxury of ignoring those once we ave seen them in action but anything you can escape with "I know better than they do" you will do.

You don't have to give up on modern physics, it should be the first place to go but you should also recognise in universe events that over rule it.

Trouble with your reasoning is that we have never actually seen any of these ridiculous 'laws of physics defying' events ever take place. There never has been an actual event confirming them. Just character dialogue.

PEOPLE CAN BE WRONG Its as simple as that.

[TheDarkling]

Yes people can be wrong but when you have several people who are trained in the science of the universe and work with these materials all the time not seeing the problem with what one of them is saying it has to be considered.

Look at it this way, everyone in this thread knew what I had pointed out was not possible now don't you think that people who use antimatter and are trained scientists would also have a vague clue what they were talking about? they are in a better situation to judge what is going on than you are.

We had one grain of a chemical causing an earth quake - what sort of power is going on there? this wasn't just dialogue it happened.

Theres no point labouring on this point because I simply won't accept mass stupidity as a valid excuse, there are other ways to explain the incidents but they will require breaking modern physics of technobabble.

Durandal:Prove to me exactly how a warp engine works (you aren't allowing the TM's because you just said Q torps are photons set to blue) I have seen a theory on trek engines being subspace taps and it was very well though out (although it did involve some Voyager incidents as evidence).

[Darth Servo]

Yes people can be wrong but when you have several people who are trained in the science of the universe and work with these materials all the time not seeing the problem with what one of them is saying it has to be considered.

They're not trained in the physics of the universe. They're taught how to use the equipment on the ship (in between Latin, philosophy, flower aranging, etc. that is)

Look at it this way, everyone in this thread knew what I had pointed out was not possible now don't you think that people who use antimatter and are trained scientists would also have a vague clue what they were talking about? they are in a better situation to judge what is going on than you are.

Not when they describe energy in units of watts and power in units of joules.

We had one grain of a chemical causing an earth quake - what sort of power is going on there? this wasn't just dialogue it happened.

That it was only one gram is PURE DIALOGUE.

Theres no point labouring on this point because I simply won't accept mass stupidity as a valid excuse, there are other ways to explain the incidents but they will require breaking modern physics of technobabble.

Because you refuse to accept that these people could possible be mistaken even when there is canon proof that they are (Riker in 'A Matter of Honor' advising the Klingons not to fire until they're within 40,000 km of the Enterprise and the Enterprise crew calling out similar numbers, yet when they did fire everyone could see that the ships were within a few km, not tens of thousands)

[TheDarkling]

you actually think they can't measure distances because of what we see on screen? well exlpain the mystery light that always make sure the enterprise is well lit or how people who are cut don't bleed - I can't believe you just said that...... amazing.

If you are willing to take the show to such a degree then I guess we disagree too much to reach anysort of agreement on the issue.

[Durandal]

Durandal:Prove to me exactly how a warp engine works (you aren't allowing the TM's because you just said Q torps are photons set to blue) I have seen a theory on trek engines being subspace taps and it was very well though out (although it did involve some Voyager incidents as evidence).

Wow! Look at the massive red herring!

I don't give a shit how warp drive works. I only care about how fast it goes. Based on Voyager, not very, compared to hyperdrive. Similarly, I don't give a shit how quantum torpedoes work. I only care about how much damage they do. There is no visual evidence indicating that quantum torpedoes are any more lethal than photon torpedoes. You've managed to confuse working mechanisms with results.

[Durandal]

you actually think they can't measure distances because of what we see on screen? well exlpain the mystery light that always make sure the enterprise is well lit or how people who are cut don't bleed - I can't believe you just said that...... amazing.

If you are willing to take the show to such a degree then I guess we disagree too much to reach anysort of agreement on the issue.

Unless the ships themselves are thousands of kilometers in length, the crew was simply wrong.

Of course, you're probably going to tell us that the fundamental nature of light must be different in Star Trek.

[TheDarkling]

You do have to allow for the medium you know or until the special editions was Lukes X wing actually transparent, do Rancors really have a weird black line around them - some sort of energy field prehaps?

You also stated that warp cores are simply matter antimatter reactors yet now claim it doesn't matter, make up your mind please.

I'm going to go read Dark Journey although I fear thats a fate that compares to being in this thread, mind crushingly boring.

[Darth Servo]

you actually think they can't measure distances because of what we see on screen? well exlpain the mystery light that always make sure the enterprise is well lit or how people who are cut don't bleed - I can't believe you just said that...... amazing.

The visuals are just as much canon as the dialogue and its that VISUALS that provide us with OBJECTIVE DATA.

Lighting the ship? The ship does have lights on the outside. That could easily account for the brightness. There is no reason to have said lights on the outside (which just reinforces the notion that they are morons) but they are there none the less.

Provide examples or descriptions of these cuts that didn't bleed. I've gotten cuts that didn't bleed. They weren't very deep, but they did exist.

The dialogue says the ships are 40,000 km apart.
The visuals show that the ships are less than 10 km apart.
Options:
1. They've redefined the terms in which case the dialogue is worthless.
2. They're unreliable morons in which case the dialogue is worthless.
Take you pick.

If you are willing to take the show to such a degree then I guess we disagree too much to reach anysort of agreement on the issue.

Of course we'll disagree. You interpret Trek the same way a Fundie interprets the Bible and everyone on this board seems to agree that the Fundies are idiots. Do you really want to be grouped with them?

[TheDarkling]

Well according to the show theres sound in space again account for the medium and also those lights on the hull can't account for the lighting.

No I don't want to be grouped with fundies but threats will not change my opinion.

[Ender]

Isn't the explanation for the ship being visable tht it has an amplifying and reflective paint? Someone on SP once mentioned using laser weaponry would be stuipd as a result, as you would get creamed by a blast 50x stronger coming back. He got jumped on for the fact that the paint woud be vaped and that it wouldn't reflect straight back, but I don't recall it being said he was wrong.

[Durandal]

You do have to allow for the medium you know or until the special editions was Lukes X wing actually transparent, do Rancors really have a weird black line around them - some sort of energy field prehaps?

Irrelevant. Those visual discrepancies were fixed, and it's not like they're integral to any calculations, anyway. You're taking fringe examples and using them as justification to throw physics out the window. Again, if you're going to do this, then why bother even trying to quantify anything in terms of SI units?

Also, we have to treat the films as more or less historical data? Were there little white letters floating around in Jabba's palace that translated what he said to everyone?

You also stated that warp cores are simply matter antimatter reactors yet now claim it doesn't matter, make up your mind please.

I said that as an answer to a question. In reality, it doesn't matter, because we've got examples of warp core power output that tell us more than any Trek-ish explanation of working mechanisms could.

I'm going to go read Dark Journey although I fear thats a fate that compares to being in this thread, mind crushingly boring.

Oh Christ. Just go fuck yourself.

[Lord Poe]

Here is the exact wording.

Voyager's weapons inventory.
Photon Torpedo compliment 32 class six warhead explosive yield 200 isotons.

There you go. She was taking the entire compliment of torpedoes into account when she gave the 200 isoton number.