Proving BaldStar Wrong

[Master of Ossus]

Damn it, DumbShit, we would be able to see a ship moving at warp speed under certain conditions. If we had a camera that was positioned at a fixed distance from the ship (presumably also moving at warp speed) we would be able to see the ship as it traveled so long as we were behind the ship in question. We accept the shots taken from in front of the ship as being taken from cameras positioned inside the ship's warp bubble (You DO know how warp engines work, don't you?) Some shots taken in ST are impossible to generate if a ship was actually travelling at warp speed, that is true, however we accept those because of suspension of disbelief. In this case, we can clearly see a ship moving at distinctly sub-light speed. In that instance, we must believe that the ship is moving at impulse and not in warp. If we saw a ship moving at warp that would have been impossible to capture, then we would accept that because of suspension of disbelief. Do you understand the difference? We see the Defiant drop out of warp in well under 6 seconds in "By Inferno's Light."

I still don't understand why you consider this to be a consistent position. Either you should be claiming it was an FX gaffe, or that the stardrive was not moving at warp.

[DarkStar]

Damn it, DumbShit, we would be able to see a ship moving at warp speed under certain conditions. If we had a camera that was positioned at a fixed distance from the ship (presumably also moving at warp speed) we would be able to see the ship as it traveled so long as we were behind the ship in question. We accept the shots taken from in front of the ship as being taken from cameras positioned inside the ship's warp bubble (You DO know how warp engines work, don't you?) Some shots taken in ST are impossible to generate if a ship was actually travelling at warp speed, that is true, however we accept those because of suspension of disbelief.

We've seen shots of the Enterprise flying from out of visual range toward the observation point while at warp, with the warp stars ... this is outside the warp field envelope, as seen on regular displays and on the various field views from "Where No One Has Gone Before".

So, you're willing to suspend disbelief in these examples though they are clearly contradictory to science, but you're not willing to do so elsewhere, even though that refusal puts you at odds with the canon in just the same way?

Hypocrisy!

We see the Defiant drop out of warp in well under 6 seconds in "By Inferno's Light."

You said you had GCS examples. The Defiant is a much smaller and newer starship.

I still don't understand why you consider this to be a consistent position. Either you should be claiming it was an FX gaffe, or that the stardrive was not moving at warp.

FX gaffe: Not allowed
impulse: Contrary to numerous visual, plot, and dialogue canon facts
warp: Perfectly consistent with absolutely everything except your hypocritical suspension of disbelief, and the often-contradicted Paris quote.

[Master of Ossus]

GCS drops out of warp in Contagion.

[Lord_Vader]

'What is going on here!' exclaimed Cal Wright as he entered the warehouse. Standing in a half circle were a group of teen super sleuths, and a dog. One was tall young man with blond hair, white shirt and an orange neckerchief. The next one was a slim red haired girl with a purple dress and hips that cried jailbate. Next to the attracitve barely eighteen red, was a girl with an orange sweater and glasses, apparently the brains of the operation. Even stranger was the duo at the end of the group. A tall slim jim guy with facial hair that hadn't been shaved in some time. His partner in crime was a brown dog, that...could talk?!?

'Mr. Wright we have finally apprehended the culpret of the 'Ignore cannon right in front of your face thread.'. Said Daphney the red haired whore.
'We believe he has been trying to inflate his post count at the Stardestroyer.net boards. He is none other than Mr. Poe himself!'

'Blasphemy you shameful excuse for a Wing Commander.' Outraged Wright looked at Shaggy and Scoop for an explanation.

'Like don't look at me man. I'm just looking for something to eat.'
'Yeah, yeah, munchies, heheheheh.' The dog laughed.

'I believe I can explain here.' Velma made her way to the center of attention. 'The culpret here, known as Darkstar is none other than Chris O'Farrell.' Everyone gasped and stepped back as the mask was removed and the truth revealed.

'I would have gotten away with it if it wasn't for these medlesome kids!!!' Chris yelled out.

'Tsk, tsk tsk, the Falcon can still dance around the Defiar while peppering her hull. Alright boys, take em away.' Wright motioned for the thread police to drag the criminal to a dark alley were he will be beaten profusally.

'Wait, wait! Fred, are you doing anything this weekend?' Chris asked.

'That's...just sick.' Wright cringed as he slapped the mask back on Chris/Darkstars' head. Then everyone laughed a harty laugh.


Look kids, don't ignore the cannon facts. Now we have this shitfest excuse of a thread because more than ONE person could not use thier eyes but instead thier ass when debating. Clearly, the E-D made no sharp turns during Warp.

This has got to be the funniest thing I have ever read.

[Grand Admiral Thrawn]

I made an animation from Poe's stills to help prove his argument. The E-D is cleary out of warp while it's turning.

http://gallery.passion4art.com/members/ ... ldyani.gif
[Warning to fellow 56Kers, it's 445k!!]

Personally, I don't know where FuckFace is getting his conclusions.

Bumping for DorkStar to see.

[Lord_Vader]

Grand Admiral Thrawn...you by any chance happen to visit www.swrebellion.com?

[Lord Poe]

[quote="DarkStar"][/quote]

Said nothing new. The fact is, you ignore clear canon visual evidence which shows that the stardrive is NOT AT WARP when it made its turn. Concession Accepted.

[DarkStar]

Said nothing new. The fact is, you ignore clear canon visual evidence which shows that the stardrive is NOT AT WARP when it made its turn. Concession Accepted.

Well, I just can't help you. You continue to ignore the canon representation of ships at warp, the canon facts of ships without warp propulsion and the time it takes them to drop to sublight, the time it takes the stardrive section to drop out of high warp, and so on. "Concession accepted".

Since you're no longer willing to discuss the issue, the best thing we can do is simply agree to disagree, since I'm not willing to ignore canon and you're not willing to accept it.

[Lord Poe]

[quote="DarkStar"][/quote]

Said nothing new. The fact is, you ignore clear canon visual evidence which shows that the stardrive is NOT AT WARP when it made its turn. Concession Accepted.

[Grand Admiral Thrawn]

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[DarkStar]

Okay, Poe, fine... you have withdrawn from even trying to look like you're discussing anything. Of course, you were never willing to be swayed from your anti-canon position in the first place. The thread speaks for itself, as does the canon... trying to "get the last word" won't change the fact that you are wrong. "Concession accepted."

[Grand Admiral Thrawn]

Okay, Poe, fine... you have withdrawn from even trying to look like you're discussing anything. Of course, you were never willing to be swayed from your anti-canon position in the first place. The thread speaks for itself, as does the canon... trying to "get the last word" won't change the fact that you are wrong. "Concession accepted."

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[DarkStar]

Yes, thank you Thrawn... those are screencaps from the canon episode which agrees with my every point.

http://www.stardestroyer.net/phpBB2/vie ... 55&start=0

Scan down to the third message if you require further illumination of this fact.

[Grand Admiral Thrawn]

WTF?


We see warp stars when it's in warp about to seperate.

Warp Stars go bye-bye when they maneuver

Warp Stars come back when they start again.

[SirNitram]

WTF?


We see warp stars when it's in warp about to seperate.

Warp Stars go bye-bye when they maneuver

Warp Stars come back when they start again.

Dark Star is single-handedly rewriting Canon for his own advantage, Thrawn. Didn't you know? He's already excluded the EU by throwing out one of Lucas' statements on Canon Policy.

[DarkStar]

Dark Star is single-handedly rewriting Canon for his own advantage, Thrawn.

No, I'm simply not ignoring canon representation of warp speeds in Trek. For example, shortly before the saucer sep, the high-warp chase was shown as a flyby of the Enterprise and Q. It looked like realspace, because it was from a stationary observation point, and therefore would not be expected to show mobile warp stars. Though it seems odd in the face of relativity, the fact remains that warp was shown in the canon in that manner.

Didn't you know? He's already excluded the EU by throwing out one of Lucas' statements on Canon Policy.

A statement you misinterpret so you can throw out his more recent statement.

[oberon]

More of your "warp star" silliness, I see.
Picard moves to the battle bridge with a plan to make good the escape of the saucer
( http://www.trek5.com/caps/tng/101-102/p ... 01_116.htm ).

Wow, how relevant....
[snip more loving crew shots that have nothing to do with warp effects]

Dance, Data, dance! Studio 1077

[oberon]

Dark Star is a great cult classic film and for Chris to use it as his name is nothing less than heinous. Have some respect for your betters, DullStar.

[Master of Ossus]

Listen, DumbShit, if the Enterprise-D was shot from a camera that was not moving, do you have any idea how long it would be in camera for if it was moving at warp? Perhaps one frame! We would just see a streak going across one frame of film, if we even got that much. You are right, the camera was stationary. You are wrong in your assertion that the Enterprise-D's stardrive continued at warp throughout the turn. That is not what is shown on-screen. I am sorry this does not fit with your belief system, but the evidence is right there on camera. You are either claiming an FX gaffe, or you should be saying that the stardrive dropped out of warp. There really are no two ways about it, moron.

BTW, I liked how you came back at Poe and GAT by re-asserting your original points without any modification due to the evidence that they showed you. I've heard snappier comebacks from a bowl of Rice Krispies.

[Lord Poe]

Okay, Poe, fine... you have withdrawn from even trying to look like you're discussing anything. Of course, you were never willing to be swayed from your anti-canon position in the first place.

You ignore clear canon visual evidence which shows that the stardrive is NOT AT WARP when it made its turn. Concession Accepted.

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You ignore clear canon visual evidence which shows that the E-D DID in fact, drop out of warp almost immediately. Concession Accepted.

You ignore the fact that "plot elements" means about as much as your mom wondering if she should get an abortion now or later.
Concession Accepted.

Canon facts do not contain "Tng-era effects were different! Waaaa!"
Concession Accepted.

To prove there was no "warp effect" during warp, you offered up Q's ball. You've yet to prove Q needs to HAVE a "warp effect". Concession Accepted.

[Master of Ossus]

I really don't know why this is so hard for you to understand, DumbShit. I would have thought that even you would have been understand this by now. We can clearly see that the ship is not at warp. Do you want us to take a poll, or something, about whether or not the ship was at warp? Maybe we should take a poll asking everyone how low they think your IQ is.

The picture clearly shows that the ship is at warp. It then separates the stardrive section, which decelerates and goes slower than warp speed. It turns around. The ship must then accelerate again to warp speed, though this is not shown on screen. Just concede to Lord Poe, who has kicked your ass in this debate, and go back to reading Graham Kennedy's fanfictions while calling it high quality literature.

[DarkStar]

Listen, DumbShit, if the Enterprise-D was shot from a camera that was not moving, do you have any idea how long it would be in camera for if it was moving at warp? Perhaps one frame!

Irrelevant. I have already explained why. If we are to suspend disbelief for sci-fi, we must be willing to do so in reference to the rules it follows when representing itself.

You are right, the camera was stationary. You are wrong in your assertion that the Enterprise-D's stardrive continued at warp throughout the turn. That is not what is shown on-screen.

It is precisely what is shown on screen. The saucer section could not have been at sublight speeds. 1/15 of a second earlier, it was at warp 9.5+, and it would not have been able to perform a downwarping maneuver due to the lack of engines. We have seen such a maneuver by a fully capable starship of 2363, and it took six seconds.

I am sorry this does not fit with your belief system, but the evidence is right there on camera.

And, unlike you, I believe we should look at it. My "belief system" is that the canon of Trek is the canon of Trek, and the canon of Wars is the canon of Wars. You and Poe are of the opinion that you can ignore the canon facts and claim you're following canon... I'm sorry, that just isn't so.

You are either claiming an FX gaffe, or you should be saying that the stardrive dropped out of warp. There really are no two ways about it, moron.

Or, I can actually watch the canon and see how they show ships at warp, and how long it takes a warp-driven starship to reverse engines and drop out of warp. I can also notice the fact that the saucer section is without warp engines to reverse.

Cha-ching.

BTW, I liked how you came back at Poe and GAT by re-asserting your original points without any modification due to the evidence that they showed you.

Why should I modify it, when they have not addressed the points?

[DarkStar]

Okay, Poe, fine... you have withdrawn from even trying to look like you're discussing anything. Of course, you were never willing to be swayed from your anti-canon position in the first place.

You ignore clear canon visual evidence which shows that the stardrive is NOT AT WARP when it made its turn. Concession Accepted.

http://gallery.passion4art.com/members/ ... ldyani.gif

You ignore clear canon visual evidence which shows that starships and entities traveling at stated warp speeds are shown without the 'warp stars' you irrationally insist must be there. Concession accepted.

You ignore clear canon visual evidence which shows that the E-D DID in fact, drop out of warp almost immediately. Concession Accepted.

You continue to base arguments off of your premeditated ignorance of canon. Concession accepted.

Further, you ignore the fact that the saucer section does not have warp engines and so could not possibly have reversed them to drop out of high warp, a maneuver which took the stardrive section six seconds. Concession accepted.

Further still, your argument requires that the saucer and stardrive had some magic connection between them, even when separated. You realize, do you not, that the stardrive section reversed power just enough to get the saucer out ahead, and this did not slow the saucer. Your argument requires that the stardrive section then dropped out of warp on a dime, and somehow managed to carry the saucer along for the downwarping.

You ignore the fact that "plot elements" means about as much as your mom wondering if she should get an abortion now or later.
Concession Accepted.

You ignore the plot of the episode, thereby ignoring the canon story and the reasons why things happen. Concession accepted.

Canon facts do not contain "Tng-era effects were different! Waaaa!"
Concession Accepted.

By this foolish view, the entirety of TOS occurred at sublight speeds. Concession accepted.

To prove there was no "warp effect" during warp, you offered up Q's ball. You've yet to prove Q needs to HAVE a "warp effect". Concession Accepted.

I offerred up the Enterprise-D and the Q object, both of which were traveling at better than warp 9, and both were seen at this speed without warp effect. Concession accepted.

[DarkStar]

We can clearly see that the ship is not at warp.

Why, because there are no warp stars? That issue has already been discussed and rectified in adherence with the representations of warp speed in the Star Trek canon.

Just concede to Lord Poe, who has kicked your ass in this debate,

The only people who believe that Poe has kicked ass in this debate are the ones who either have not read it, do not understand it, or who agree with Poe that the canon of Trek can be ignored.

The point has been argued to my satisfaction... there is no warsie argument which can possibly hope to override Trek canon representations of warp speed ships... there is also no warsie argument which has yet appeared that can override the point that the saucer section could not have dropped out of high warp in 1/15th of a second.

In short, despite the fact that you guys want to bitch about warp travel without the warp star effect (despite the fact that this is an established convention in Trek), my points still stand.

Unless and until some new argument is brought forth, I hereby accept the concession of my opponents in perpetuity on the grounds that they are ignoring multiple canon Star Trek facts.

[Grand Admiral Thrawn]

We see warp stars indicating warp.
Right after, we see no warp stars.
Warp stars reappear imediatly after the parts move away from each other.




Guess why no warp stars were shown right then.