Independence War calc request

Arthur_Tuxedo · Post by **Arthur_Tuxedo** » 2002-12-09 06:23pm

The Dreadnought fires a bolt of plasma at a temperature of 12 million degrees kelvin that measures approximately 80m x 20 m x 20 m and travels at 8 km/s IIRC. I'm pretty sure that's enough information to come up with a firepower calc. I really appreciate it.

HemlockGrey · Post by **HemlockGrey** » 2002-12-09 06:25pm

I want that game.

Durandal · Post by **Durandal** » 2002-12-09 06:34pm

It depends on the density of the plasma, but each individual particle at 1.2E7 K will have about 1 keV of energy, or 1.7E-16 J.

That may seem low, but at the particle level, 1 KeV is nothing to sneeze at.

Arthur_Tuxedo · Post by **Arthur_Tuxedo** » 2002-12-09 09:39pm

The plasma is a waste product from a M/AM reactor. Does that tell you enough?

Arthur_Tuxedo · Post by **Arthur_Tuxedo** » 2002-12-09 09:40pm

HemlockGrey wrote:I want that game.

I'm sure you can still find it somewhere. It takes a little wizardry to get it to work on a DirectX 8/WinXP system (not sure which one has the problem), but it's much better than the sequel. My fav space sim of all time, including Tie Figher Collector's and Wing Commander 3!

Arthur_Tuxedo · Post by **Arthur_Tuxedo** » 2002-12-09 09:41pm

HemlockGrey wrote:I want that game.

I'm sure you can still find it somewhere. It takes a little wizardry to get it to work on a DirectX 8/WinXP system (not sure which one has the problem), but it's much better than the sequel. My fav space sim of all time, including Tie Figher Collector's and Wing Commander 3!

HemlockGrey · Post by **HemlockGrey** » 2002-12-09 09:43pm

It's nowhere to be found in any stores around me.

Evil Sadistic Bastard · Post by **Evil Sadistic Bastard** » 2002-12-09 09:45pm

Get it from kazaa. I-War 2, at least.

HemlockGrey · Post by **HemlockGrey** » 2002-12-09 09:45pm

Tried. Kazaa only has I-War 2.

data_link · Post by **data_link** » 2002-12-09 10:01pm

Arthur_Tuxedo wrote:The plasma is a waste product from a M/AM reactor. Does that tell you enough?

Actually, the Dreadnaught's main reactor is fusion[/i]-based. The antimatter is the backup system.

Hotfoot · Post by **Hotfoot** » 2002-12-09 11:12pm

Evil Sadistic Bastard wrote:Get it from kazaa. I-War 2, at least.

I should flay you alive for that...

Evil Sadistic Bastard · Post by **Evil Sadistic Bastard** » 2002-12-09 11:13pm

Hotfoot wrote:
Evil Sadistic Bastard wrote:Get it from kazaa. I-War 2, at least.
I should flay you alive for that...

Why?

Hotfoot · Post by **Hotfoot** » 2002-12-09 11:24pm

Evil Sadistic Bastard wrote:Why?

Because you're promoting piracy of a niche game that is still available for retail, and I happen to believe in compensating game creators for their work. While I can condone piracy in certain situations (abandonware, for example, a company that's gone out of business, a game that's no longer available in stores or extraordinarily difficult to find), this is not one of them.

As for the original I-War, you can get the Defiance Edition from Amazon, if nowhere else.

Independence War: Deluxe Edition

Also, you can get I-War 2 at Amazon.

Edge of Chaos

EoC was recently re-released on a budget title, which is probably cheaper. Hard to say. Also, look into the modding community. The Buda 5 team is preparing their usual Christmas present, and the folks at the Epic mod group (including yours truly) are currently drowning themselves in numbers, equations, and POG for your benefit.

While you're at it, anyone interested in I-War or I-War 2 should read up on the Kama Inertia.

Arthur_Tuxedo · Post by **Arthur_Tuxedo** » 2002-12-10 12:26am

Actually, the Dreadnaught's main reactor is fusion[/i]-based. The antimatter is the backup system.

You're right. My bad.

Arthur_Tuxedo · Post by **Arthur_Tuxedo** » 2002-12-10 12:27am

Anyway, what's the range of firepower, Durandal, just plugging some low and high-end density numbers in?

Durandal · Post by **Durandal** » 2002-12-10 01:29am

Well, given that the plasma is in the KeV-range per particle, we can classify it as a hot plasma. Plasma density, however, is dependent upon the pressure of its environment. I have no idea what exactly holds these beams coherent, but assuming they have any kind of usable range, they'd radiate very little of their destructive energy away as light. Since it's a hot plasma, we'll just assume that it's at a relatively low density (1E13 charged particles/m^3).

I'm sure this is wrong somehow. My understanding of thermodynamics is pretty much a patched-together work-in-progress from various classes and just now looking at some websites on plasma physics.

I got about 50 J.

That seems low.

If you really want, I could do a bit more research when I have the time, but there isn't very much information here to work with. Mike would probably be able to help you out a bit more.

EmperorMing · Post by **EmperorMing** » 2002-12-10 04:27am

From what I remember in the game the range for I-War 2 weapons tend s to go out ot about 12-14 KM with an effective range of about 2-4 km.

Missile weapons reach out to 50 km for the second one and 120 in the first one.(remotes)

Arthur_Tuxedo · Post by **Arthur_Tuxedo** » 2002-12-10 05:00am

Durandal wrote:Well, given that the plasma is in the KeV-range per particle, we can classify it as a hot plasma. Plasma density, however, is dependent upon the pressure of its environment. I have no idea what exactly holds these beams coherent, but assuming they have any kind of usable range, they'd radiate very little of their destructive energy away as light. Since it's a hot plasma, we'll just assume that it's at a relatively low density (1E13 charged particles/m^3).

I'm sure this is wrong somehow. My understanding of thermodynamics is pretty much a patched-together work-in-progress from various classes and just now looking at some websites on plasma physics.

I got about 50 J.

That seems low.

If you really want, I could do a bit more research when I have the time, but there isn't very much information here to work with. Mike would probably be able to help you out a bit more.

Hmm, that does seem low. These plasma bolts are capable of destroying 100m wide asteroids with a few shots, and they're about as powerful against an unshielded ship as seeker missiles, which use a fusion warhead, meaning that it should be at least 100 kilotons IIRC. Anyway, thanks for the help. Look forward to seeing what else you can come up with.

Btw, I'm thinking of making it into a short I-War vs. Star Trek crossover fanfic.

ClaysGhost · Post by **ClaysGhost** » 2002-12-10 05:16am

If the temperature of the bolt is as stated (and I can't remember anything in the I-war manual regarding the precise temperature of the bolts) then the charges in the bolt have random velocities on the order of 100's of km/s. If it travels at 8km/s then it's clear that the bolt would disperse rapidly without some sort of magic containment.

Energy loss through radiation would be significant at 12 million K, and the weapon would rapidly become ineffective (well before the 2-4 km effective range from the game). The I-War universe (as far as I know from the first game) has no magic that will stop this radiation being emitted.

The linear velocity of the bolt must be greater than the thermal velocity of the particles if the PBC is to be of any use, which limits the plasma temperature to about 15,000K, maximum. I seem to remember from the manual that the PBC is supplied by diverting "charged particle flux" from the main ring, i.e. before the fusion stage. Obviously, this would make the plasma cooler than the fusion temperature.

The 50J figure is correct for the given density. Modern tokamaks can deal with plasma densities of 10^20 particles per m^3 (which is still pretty rarified!); this upper limit corresponds to about 600GJ for the PBC bolt, so it's apparent that the total energy is really poorly constrained. We can pick a density and get a figure that spans 50 to 6x10^11J! The manual states that the main ring produces about 1GW of power, and the PBC takes about 1 second to recharge, so that this would imply that the maximum energy available to the PBC per shot is about a gigajoule. There's a scene in the intro movie during which it's stated that an Indie PatCom's (smaller than a corvette) cannon is rated at 1TW, so I guess this implies that the energy is released at the target in 1/1000 of a second. In 1/1000th of a second, the bolt would travel 8 m at the given speed, so assuming that that's correct then the bolt cannot be 80 m long. Something's gone wrong somewhere. The manual's wrong, the intro's wrong, the 80 m figure is wrong or the 8km/s figure is wrong. I don't think the 8km/s figure is wrong by a factor of 10.

I-War is a top game. It's the antidote to flight-sims in space! You want to travel in one direction and point in another? You can!

Post by **Vympel** » 2002-12-10 06:45am

Independence War 2 engineering screen rates reactor output in megawatts.

Hotfoot · Post by **Hotfoot** » 2002-12-10 07:59am

Vympel wrote:Independence War 2 engineering screen rates reactor output in megawatts.

That engineering screen is highly unreliable and useless as a method of gathering data. It also shows that 5 MW can power some 3000 MW of power in game. More useful are the ship schematics from the I-War 1 manual or in-game/cutscene dialogue.

Durandal · Post by **Durandal** » 2002-12-10 12:51pm

If the temperature of the bolt is as stated (and I can't remember anything in the I-war manual regarding the precise temperature of the bolts) then the charges in the bolt have random velocities on the order of 100's of km/s. If it travels at 8km/s then it's clear that the bolt would disperse rapidly without some sort of magic containment.

That's what I was thinking, unfortunately the bolts have said magic containment.

Energy loss through radiation would be significant at 12 million K, and the weapon would rapidly become ineffective (well before the 2-4 km effective range from the game). The I-War universe (as far as I know from the first game) has no magic that will stop this radiation being emitted.

Well, apparently they do, as they do not disperse almost instantaneously after being fired. 12 million K is quite hot. The surface of the sun is only about 6000 K, and the plasma ejecta from solar flares disperse quite rapidly.

The linear velocity of the bolt must be greater than the thermal velocity of the particles if the PBC is to be of any use, which limits the plasma temperature to about 15,000K, maximum. I seem to remember from the manual that the PBC is supplied by diverting "charged particle flux" from the main ring, i.e. before the fusion stage. Obviously, this would make the plasma cooler than the fusion temperature.

I'm wondering just what pumping particles into the KeV range would do. With all the energy you'd spend, you may end up just creating new particles instead of heating them up. Either way, 12 million K does seem ridiculously hot, to be sure.

The 50J figure is correct for the given density. Modern tokamaks can deal with plasma densities of 10^20 particles per m^3 (which is still pretty rarified!); this upper limit corresponds to about 600GJ for the PBC bolt, so it's apparent that the total energy is really poorly constrained. We can pick a density and get a figure that spans 50 to 6x10^11J!

Even with high enough densities, you're only talking the equivalent explosive power of 100 or so tons of TNT.

The manual states that the main ring produces about 1GW of power, and the PBC takes about 1 second to recharge, so that this would imply that the maximum energy available to the PBC per shot is about a gigajoule. There's a scene in the intro movie during which it's stated that an Indie PatCom's (smaller than a corvette) cannon is rated at 1TW, so I guess this implies that the energy is released at the target in 1/1000 of a second. In 1/1000th of a second, the bolt would travel 8 m at the given speed, so assuming that that's correct then the bolt cannot be 80 m long. Something's gone wrong somewhere. The manual's wrong, the intro's wrong, the 80 m figure is wrong or the 8km/s figure is wrong. I don't think the 8km/s figure is wrong by a factor of 10.

I think you're right. It'd be better to estimate the beam's destructive capabilities based on observed effects on asteroids, which I think were brought up before.

Arthur_Tuxedo · Post by **Arthur_Tuxedo** » 2002-12-10 12:53pm

ClaysGhost wrote:If the temperature of the bolt is as stated (and I can't remember anything in the I-war manual regarding the precise temperature of the bolts) then the charges in the bolt have random velocities on the order of 100's of km/s. If it travels at 8km/s then it's clear that the bolt would disperse rapidly without some sort of magic containment.

Energy loss through radiation would be significant at 12 million K, and the weapon would rapidly become ineffective (well before the 2-4 km effective range from the game). The I-War universe (as far as I know from the first game) has no magic that will stop this radiation being emitted.

The linear velocity of the bolt must be greater than the thermal velocity of the particles if the PBC is to be of any use, which limits the plasma temperature to about 15,000K, maximum. I seem to remember from the manual that the PBC is supplied by diverting "charged particle flux" from the main ring, i.e. before the fusion stage. Obviously, this would make the plasma cooler than the fusion temperature.

The 50J figure is correct for the given density. Modern tokamaks can deal with plasma densities of 10^20 particles per m^3 (which is still pretty rarified!); this upper limit corresponds to about 600GJ for the PBC bolt, so it's apparent that the total energy is really poorly constrained. We can pick a density and get a figure that spans 50 to 6x10^11J! The manual states that the main ring produces about 1GW of power, and the PBC takes about 1 second to recharge, so that this would imply that the maximum energy available to the PBC per shot is about a gigajoule. There's a scene in the intro movie during which it's stated that an Indie PatCom's (smaller than a corvette) cannon is rated at 1TW, so I guess this implies that the energy is released at the target in 1/1000 of a second. In 1/1000th of a second, the bolt would travel 8 m at the given speed, so assuming that that's correct then the bolt cannot be 80 m long. Something's gone wrong somewhere. The manual's wrong, the intro's wrong, the 80 m figure is wrong or the 8km/s figure is wrong. I don't think the 8km/s figure is wrong by a factor of 10.

I-War is a top game. It's the antidote to flight-sims in space! You want to travel in one direction and point in another? You can!

Thanks.

Hotfoot · Post by **Hotfoot** » 2002-12-10 01:17pm

ClaysGhost wrote:Energy loss through radiation would be significant at 12 million K, and the weapon would rapidly become ineffective (well before the 2-4 km effective range from the game). The I-War universe (as far as I know from the first game) has no magic that will stop this radiation being emitted.

I'll have to dig around the INA forums when they're back up, but as I recall the PBCs worked on a similar principle to Turbolasers in that there is a magnetic bottling of the plasma or somesuch.

There's a scene in the intro movie during which it's stated that an Indie PatCom's (smaller than a corvette) cannon is rated at 1TW, so I guess this implies that the energy is released at the target in 1/1000 of a second.

Nitpick: The PBC on the Indie Patcom Indecent Proposal was rated as a 5 Terrawatt cannon, according to the dialogue supplied by Quartermaster McDuff

In 1/1000th of a second, the bolt would travel 8 m at the given speed, so assuming that that's correct then the bolt cannot be 80 m long. Something's gone wrong somewhere. The manual's wrong, the intro's wrong, the 80 m figure is wrong or the 8km/s figure is wrong. I don't think the 8km/s figure is wrong by a factor of 10.

The length of the bolt in the game was simply for the benefit of collision detection. Faster-moving objects are longer to ensure that the game registers a hit.

Another nitpick: the speed of a standard PBC bolt is 6km/s, not 8. Also, it ceases to be a viable weapon 1.6 seconds after being shot, and has attenuation time 0.35 seconds.

I-War is a top game. It's the antidote to flight-sims in space! You want to travel in one direction and point in another? You can!

Indeed. The Karma Inertia is a beautiful thing.

Durandal · Post by **Durandal** » 2002-12-10 01:59pm

Hotfoot wrote: I'll have to dig around the INA forums when they're back up, but as I recall the PBCs worked on a similar principle to Turbolasers in that there is a magnetic bottling of the plasma or somesuch.

Don't say that too loudly. Dr. Saxton might hear.

Anyway, it raises the question of how they could keey the field strength up after the bolt has been shot. The bolt itself could not sustain a magnetic field to keep the bolt "bottled up."