I pity my brother...

[Icehawk]

Ever since getting the DS9 series on DVD for christmas he's become a real trek fanwhore and has started showing moronic trekkie tendencies towards trek being more powerfull than wars, especially after seeing one particular episode: "The Dye is Cast"

So I just get home from work and what do I see, my brother repeatedly watching clips of DS9 The Dye Is Cast. He is now so fixated on the dialogue spoken by the one the romulan saying "30% of planetary crust destroyed" and thinks that it overides the visuals as well as the rest of start trek which clearly do not support this supposed super level of firepower from trek ships....

He also thinks that "anyone who does calculations is taking things too far..." as if its ok to just accept the dialogue without question or any further analysis. In other words, he's being intellectually lazy and dishonest.

Aside from pointing out the visual inconsistancies is their any other way of trying to counter the moronic notion of super firepower that is supposedly shown off in this episode?

[Solauren]

Point out there was a Dominion spy on board that was RIGGING THE READINGS

In other words, we can't trust the visuals cause they were designed to keep the Romulans and Cardassiasns happy until the Jem'ha'dar got into position to blow them all to hell.

I guess the Dominion did there job well. It sucked 3 classes of idiots: Romulans, Cardassians, and Stupid-Rapid Trek Fanwhores.

[SirNitram]

I pity him for watching The Die Is Cast over and over. That'll kill braincells.

[LongVin]

A hard firm slap to the back of the head should snap him out of it.

[Bounty]

I pity him for watching The Die Is Cast over and over. That'll kill braincells.

Why ? Apart from the whole "are they cracking a planet or shooting firecrackers" idiocy it's a pretty good episode as far as mid-DS9 goes.

[Darth Wong]

Hardly. If they wanted so badly to stop a Dominion invasion they could have used their fleet of cloaked ships to destroy the wormhole opening, mine the shit out of it, etc. Flying to the Founder Homeworld with genocide on your mind and assuming it would be unprotected is a retarded plan.

[harbringer]

Re: the die is cast

Also as a matter of intelligence the two most sophisticated intelligence networks a) failed to see the likely result of this and b) the presence of a dominion fleet.

As a matter of strategy it sucked because not only did they fail at thier goal it failed even tangental success or survival of the assets applied.

[FTeik]

Direct him to the dialog, where they say they need several hours to do their bombardement and ask him how that fit with the thirty percent destroyed in seconds quote.

The only credible dialog in that episode is the one founder saying they en-couraged Enabran Tain's plan.

[Kane Starkiller]

The Dye is Cast

This one just cracked me up.
But since the Founders are in a liquid-ocean state all of the time dye just might work.

[Darth Servo]

1) We know the dominionn had a transmitter sending back false sensor readings.
2) The episode isn't self consistant.
3) Your brother isn't self consistant, wanking over one piece of dialogue and ignoring the rest of the canon episode.

[Darth Wong]

1) We know the dominionn had a transmitter sending back false sensor readings.
2) The episode isn't self consistant.
3) Your brother isn't self consistant, wanking over one piece of dialogue and ignoring the rest of the canon episode.

Add to that the fact (which I've mentioned many times) that terminology is often inaccurate in Trek. By "crust", they might have meant "surface". By forcibly interpreting "crust" and "mantle" to be their correct modern geological terms, he is basing his argument upon the assumption that Trek is always perfect in its use of scientific terminology: a demonstrably false assumption.

[brianeyci]

Hardly. If they wanted so badly to stop a Dominion invasion they could have used their fleet of cloaked ships to destroy the wormhole opening, mine the shit out of it, etc. Flying to the Founder Homeworld with genocide on your mind and assuming it would be unprotected is a retarded plan.

Well to be fair to the Romulans they never had a chance since they were infiltrated. The Founders might have even set it up, assassinated and replaced a Tal'Shiar higher up and ordered the suicide mission. IIRC this was a major plot point.

Brian

[brianeyci]

EDIT : Also the Tal'Shiar are the same vein as the Romulans, paper pushers who probably have no idea of how to properly run a war and overestimate their cloaking device. I can't imagine regular navy like a Tomalak condoning such a mission. When we saw a regular navy Captain her attitude was hardly the "omfg cloaking device rocks" but was more like "the cloaking device doesn't make us invincible you moron" to Deanna.

Brian

[brianeyci]

EDIT : Gah, I meant to say "The Tal'Shiar are the same vein as Sela" rather than Romulans.

Brian

[Bounty]

Also the Tal'Shiar are the same vein as the Romulans, paper pushers who probably have no idea of how to properly run a war and overestimate their cloaking device.

Both the Tal'Shiar and the Obsidian Order are not regular military, they're intelligence agencies. It was a big plot point that the OO wasn't even allowed to have starships, that's why the fleet of cloak-capable Keldon-class ships was such a surprise. They had no idea what they were getting into, the infiltrator just fed them a pretty story about how it'd be a Frischer, Frohliger sneak attack and they bought it without considering what might go wrong.

[Agemegos]

Aside from pointing out the visual inconsistancies is their any other way of trying to counter the moronic notion of super firepower that is supposedly shown off in this episode?

Darth Wong's Dark Side Deprogramming Camp?

[Lord Zentei]

Ever since getting the DS9 series on DVD for christmas he's become a real trek fanwhore and has started showing moronic trekkie tendencies towards trek being more powerfull than wars, especially after seeing one particular episode: "The Dye is Cast"

So I just get home from work and what do I see, my brother repeatedly watching clips of DS9 The Dye Is Cast. He is now so fixated on the dialogue spoken by the one the romulan saying "30% of planetary crust destroyed" and thinks that it overides the visuals as well as the rest of start trek which clearly do not support this supposed super level of firepower from trek ships....

He also thinks that "anyone who does calculations is taking things too far..." as if its ok to just accept the dialogue without question or any further analysis. In other words, he's being intellectually lazy and dishonest.

Aside from pointing out the visual inconsistancies is their any other way of trying to counter the moronic notion of super firepower that is supposedly shown off in this episode?

Even if we accept that an entire fleet of Cardassian and Romulan ships can "destroy" 30% of a planet's crust (whatever that means, precisely), how does that compare with three ISDs being able to slag the entire crust?

[Cao Cao]

Ever since getting the DS9 series on DVD for christmas he's become a real trek fanwhore and has started showing moronic trekkie tendencies towards trek being more powerfull than wars, especially after seeing one particular episode: "The Dye is Cast"

So I just get home from work and what do I see, my brother repeatedly watching clips of DS9 The Dye Is Cast. He is now so fixated on the dialogue spoken by the one the romulan saying "30% of planetary crust destroyed" and thinks that it overides the visuals as well as the rest of start trek which clearly do not support this supposed super level of firepower from trek ships....

He also thinks that "anyone who does calculations is taking things too far..." as if its ok to just accept the dialogue without question or any further analysis. In other words, he's being intellectually lazy and dishonest.

Aside from pointing out the visual inconsistancies is their any other way of trying to counter the moronic notion of super firepower that is supposedly shown off in this episode?

Even if we accept that an entire fleet of Cardassian and Romulan ships can "destroy" 30% of a planet's crust (whatever that means, precisely), how does that compare with three ISDs being able to slag the entire crust?

Cause that's a dirty lie.
First of all ISDs use lasers Star Trek ships are immune to lasers!!1
And don't talk about the Death Star cause it used a chain reaction to kill Alderaan.. and Alderaan was made of plutonium.. and the DS was a fluke even if they built two! Fluke I say!
So it can't be used as evidence of WEAK SW lazers! Hahaha!

HAIL XENU!

Sarcasm rating of the above post is rated at 10,000 HomerJoules

[chitoryu12]

Ever since getting the DS9 series on DVD for christmas he's become a real trek fanwhore and has started showing moronic trekkie tendencies towards trek being more powerfull than wars, especially after seeing one particular episode: "The Dye is Cast"

So I just get home from work and what do I see, my brother repeatedly watching clips of DS9 The Dye Is Cast. He is now so fixated on the dialogue spoken by the one the romulan saying "30% of planetary crust destroyed" and thinks that it overides the visuals as well as the rest of start trek which clearly do not support this supposed super level of firepower from trek ships....

He also thinks that "anyone who does calculations is taking things too far..." as if its ok to just accept the dialogue without question or any further analysis. In other words, he's being intellectually lazy and dishonest.

Aside from pointing out the visual inconsistancies is their any other way of trying to counter the moronic notion of super firepower that is supposedly shown off in this episode?

Even if we accept that an entire fleet of Cardassian and Romulan ships can "destroy" 30% of a planet's crust (whatever that means, precisely), how does that compare with three ISDs being able to slag the entire crust?

Cause that's a dirty lie.
First of all ISDs use lasers Star Trek ships are immune to lasers!!1
And don't talk about the Death Star cause it used a chain reaction to kill Alderaan.. and Alderaan was made of plutonium.. and the DS was a fluke even if they built two! Fluke I say!
So it can't be used as evidence of WEAK SW lazers! Hahaha!

HAIL XENU!

Sarcasm rating of the above post is rated at 10,000 HomerJoules

And remember, because SW ships don't use touch-screens and use primative buttons and switches, they have primative technology, and they can't even scratch a planet's crust because primative tech=super-weakness!!!!!!111!1

[TrekWarsie]

One reconciliation with the dialogue that would seem to make sense with the 20 ships destroying the crust in one hour, and the mantle within five is that that the Romulan officer said "30% of the planetary crust", not planet's crust. That could indicate that the officer was referring only to the targeted area, and that would significantly reduce the firepower figures for Trek. It still puts them in the ICS range, but it would at most make an even fight, and there are few other instances of ICS level firepower in Star Trek so they may be Spider-Man vs. Firelord feats. One thing you should have, though, are other feats in SW that support the ICS so your friend doesn't use the SM-v-FL clause on you.

[Darth Wong]

Anyone who even tries to use the "Spiderman vs Firelord" argument is a flaming idiot and should be informed of that fact immediately. Sort of like people who insist on absolute literalist authoritative interpretation of Trek onscreen dialogue: something we don't even do for real-life people.

What the fuck is the logic behind that argument, anyway? A hurt B therefore A must be more powerful than B? By that bullshit idiot pseudo-logic, a Japanese dive-bomber circa 1941 has more firepower than a goddamned battleship. And wait, a grenade could fuck up a Japanese dive-bomber, so a grenade must be more powerful than a battleship too! Gee, this CBR logic is great!

[Eframepilot]

Anyone who even tries to use the "Spiderman vs Firelord" argument is a flaming idiot and should be informed of that fact immediately. Sort of like people who insist on absolute literalist authoritative interpretation of Trek onscreen dialogue: something we don't even do for real-life people.

What the fuck is the logic behind that argument, anyway? A hurt B therefore A must be more powerful than B? By that bullshit idiot pseudo-logic, a Japanese dive-bomber circa 1941 has more firepower than a goddamned battleship. And wait, a grenade could fuck up a Japanese dive-bomber, so a grenade must be more powerful than a battleship too! Gee, this CBR logic is great!

But Spider-Man shouldn't be able to hurt Firelord with his bare fists, as Firelord is a freaking herald of Galactus. Another good example of something that was Spider-Man vs. Firelord-ed was Wolverine surviving a direct (and I mean direct) hit by a nuke. The logic behind the rule is that outliers that are totally inconsistent with all of a character's other feats should be disregarded. The alternative is to give up and refuse to analyze comics at all because they allow things like Wolverine surviving a nuke to happen.

[Darth Wong]

Anyone who even tries to use the "Spiderman vs Firelord" argument is a flaming idiot and should be informed of that fact immediately. Sort of like people who insist on absolute literalist authoritative interpretation of Trek onscreen dialogue: something we don't even do for real-life people.

What the fuck is the logic behind that argument, anyway? A hurt B therefore A must be more powerful than B? By that bullshit idiot pseudo-logic, a Japanese dive-bomber circa 1941 has more firepower than a goddamned battleship. And wait, a grenade could fuck up a Japanese dive-bomber, so a grenade must be more powerful than a battleship too! Gee, this CBR logic is great!

But Spider-Man shouldn't be able to hurt Firelord with his bare fists, as Firelord is a freaking herald of Galactus.

And why the fuck does that prove Spiderman shouldn't be able to hurt him?

Another good example of something that was Spider-Man vs. Firelord-ed was Wolverine surviving a direct (and I mean direct) hit by a nuke.

Then the nuke was obviously a dud. Nukes can theoretically malfunction, decay, etc. and I've seen nukes in comicbooks on numerous occasions which have a pitiful fraction of the effects they should have.

The logic behind the rule is that outliers that are totally inconsistent with all of a character's other feats should be disregarded.

And no one makes any serious effort to rationalize the situation first.

The alternative is to give up and refuse to analyze comics at all because they allow things like Wolverine surviving a nuke to happen.

Well, comic books are generally targeted at children, and adolescents who still think like children. Why is it so unpalatable to conclude that they are not consistent enough to analyze?

[OmegaGuy]

Well the reason Spiderman shouldn't be able to hurt a Herald of Galactus is because they have the Power Cosmic, which gives them insane durability. For example the Silver Surfer, in his very first appearance, flew through a supernova and rode the shockwave with no harm done.

Also, I find most comic books I read to be no more childish than Star Wars, but that's just my opinion. I wil gladly admit, though, that they are vastly more inconsistent (that's what you get when you have literally thousands of writers working on one universe).

[Rogue 9]

Perhaps I'm missing something, but why did Spiderman vs. Firelord come up out of nowhere?