Would saving the US Constitution be worth your life? (Hypo.)

[Anguirus]

I'm an American, so this is a very Ameri-centric poll, but feel free to chime in regardless of where you live, either about America or about your own country's principles.

Now, I consider myself a patriot. I love my country. The Constitution of the United States of America created the longest-lasting government on the planet, as well as one of the most enlightened ones, and the asshats haven't quite managed to destroy it yet.

But on the other hand, I think that blind nationalism is a dangerous force. And practically, I think that loyalty to yourself and your loved ones ought to come first.

As a result, the following hypothetical question has been bugging me, so I want to share it with you all and see what you think.

Suppose that you were granted a glimpse of the future and you saw that over the next 25 years, the United States gradually becomes a Judeo-Christian theocracy. The Constitution is either amended all to hell or simply ignored. The President becomes a de facto dictator, with no term limits; the Congress is packed with his fanatical supporters; and the Supreme Court and its "activism" are abolished entirely.

Gay people, Muslims, atheists, liberals, and other "undesirables" are forcibly deported or imprisoned. Prison abuse is rampant and police often look the other way in incidents of beating and torture. Heresy and apostasy from a native-born Christian or ex-Christian can be punished by life in prison. Criticizing the government is an imprisonable offense. "Biblical law" is enforced on the community level. It's Jerry Falwell's wet dream.

There are no mass or institutionalized killings as a result of this. America does not become an expansionist warmonger, but simply pulls back the troops and stews in its own juices.

Equally hypothetically, you know that if you take certain actions that will result in your own death, you will prevent this from happening.

To prevent this outcome, would you sacrifice your life?

Is the United States and its Constitution worth sacrificing your life for? Keep in mind that this isn't a "prevent the Holocaust" scenario...you will save millions from horrible persecution, but no death camps. The Bill of Rights is toast forever, but the people who could not bear to live in the new theocracy would simply sent to neighboring nations without harm to them (though it would be quite a strain on the nations).

Are the ideals of America worth dying for? Or would you rather move yourself and your family out while the getting's good 25 years early, mourn the passing of a great nation, and get on with your life?

I've been thinking about it for a day and for the life of me, I can't decide.

[Darth Lucifer]

Sacrifice my own life to prevent the above hellhole of a scenario? As many times as I can.

I take it that in this case American Values mean freedom and democracy and all that good stuff (to quote Colonel Tigh) and not the fucked up distortion of AV by the fudamentalist right.

[Lord of the Abyss]

No. As far as I'm concerned, America has proven it deserves whatever misfortune befalls it. Given such knowledge, I'd leave beforehand and let America bring it's own Hell upon itself.

[Durandal]

If that's how fucking terrible the future gets, there's no way that I'd be able to prevent it, in all honesty. Were that the case, I'd just throw in the towel and move to Canada, encouraging everyone I know to do the same.

[CarsonPalmer]

Lord of the Abyss, why does America deserve this particular hell? Besides whatever happened to forgiving the sins of the father? Does simply being an American mean that you deserve to live in this hellhole?

I would give my life to prevent this dystopia, by the way.

[Brother-Captain Gaius]

For the Emperor.

I like to think I would. I'm not sure if I could actually bring myself to do it or not, but it is along the same lines of why I'm joining the Army. Protect and serve, duty and honor, and all that jazz.

[Gil Hamilton]

Absolutely I'd fight for my country, long before it gets to the point you described. Most likely die for it too. I'd just hope I'd die in a way that trades my life for others, so they can escape and be free. Or trade it in a different way, trading my life to take some bastards who did that to my city and my country with me.

[Soontir C'boath]

Despite my mother, brother, and at least two cousins (don't care for the rest) living here, I would risk my life to prevent such a thing to occur. I would definitely expect resistance groups to turn up that I can join or at least create and help from outlying nations around the world should be coming realizing the very dangerous threat the US has become.

[speaker-to-trolls]

I'm sorry to say I probably wouldn't do it, any amount of suffering becomes academic when it's far enough removed from ones own position. However, morally it would definitely be worth giving my life to avoid this scenario and spare millions of people the suffering it would cause.

Oh, and the Constitution has NOT created the longest lasting government on the planet, I'm pretty sure that the parliamentary system my own country has has been around for quite a while longer.

[LongVin]

Nope. I'd just take advantage of the situation as best as I can to ensure I have a nice position within the new system.

[Beowulf]

I, state your full name, do solemnly swear, to protect the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice.

[Kamakazie Sith]

I, state your full name, do solemnly swear, to protect the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice.

That says it all...

[Stark]

By what standard is the US republic the longest-lasting government in history?

[Ma Deuce]

If that's how fucking terrible the future gets, there's no way that I'd be able to prevent it, in all honesty. Were that the case, I'd just throw in the towel and move to Canada, encouraging everyone I know to do the same.

In all likelyhood, such a theocratic government would find some way or another to send America's economy completely down the shitter (the imprisonment/deportation of the "undesirables" alone would probably do that), and if the US economy goes down the shitter, Canada's goes down right behind it. And despite the condiditon of the OP that this hypothetical theocracy would not be expansionist, such a government would likely find some excuse to annex at least part of Canada and/or Mexico eventually.

If you wanted to get away from it all, you'd be better off moving to someplace overseas like Britain: The economies of the European countries would also be affected by the collapse of the US economy, but not to anywhere near the same extent as Canada.

[Cao Cao]

I would reason that whatever I could do to prevent such a thing would only postpone the inevitable and wouldn't do it.
If enough people support an idea, if the American government can't sustain itself by itself then I wouldn't give up my life to keep it on crutches for a couple more decades.

[Plekhanov]

By what standard is the US republic the longest-lasting government in history?

By the standards of somebody who's never read a history book.

[Anguirus]

^ In other words, my World History teacher in high school. Who, I believe, has read quite a few. He's also a world traveler, and wrote an anthropology textbook.

The way he explained it, the Constitution has lasted longer than any single other national government currently in existence, or "on the planet" as I put it in the OP, due to various revolutions, significant changes in governmental power, and such like. For instance, the Parliament has been around for far longer, but its powers and responsibilities have changed drastically. In contrast, the vast majority of the Constitution is still used today as a day-to-day basis of government.

It's not the reason I'm proud of living under it, but it's certainly something to appreciate.

(If someone wants to make a debate regarding "relative age" of the U.S. vs. other governments, PLEASE make it in a new thread...)

[Simplicius]

Assuming the conditions of the hypothetical are solid, i.e. that my death will guarantee that that perticular vision for the future doesn't come about (and, as per the implications of 'save the Constitution', something just as bad or worse doesn't happen either), I may well have to.

Not as a matter of patriotism, or steadfast devotion to the document as it stands - after all, it was written to be changable, and to insist that a government remain constant as history passes is absurd. But the core of the Constitution, of a limited government and certain guaranteed individual rights, is arguably one of the best ideas humanity's ever had. Preserving that idea wherever it exists, and by doing so ensuring that millions in the future recieve the benefits of that liberty, is worth the life of a single person today - and by saying so, that life would have to be mine.

Gah, sorry. I get all dramatic when I'm tired.

[Zero]

I would, but I misclicked, and voted no. Any theocratic nation with as much firepower as the US couldn't stay put forever. I'm sure we'd eventually invade the middle east and Israel to secure the holy land, or something equally stupid.

Besides that, the thought of this country, and almost all of my friends being forced to conform to some insane ideal while the freedoms and ideas that make this country decent erode away and are eradicated. The basic freedoms that are necessary for progression and change to occur shouldn't be allowed to die away to appease a crazy religion obsessed with appeasing an invisible fellow up in the clouds somewhere. So yeah, I'd die to stop that shitty future from coming around.

Besides just that, if the US were eliminated from global politics, the western world would lose a significant military force, and China and India would become new contenders for the world superpower. That thought doesn't appeal to me.

[Cairber]

Probably not...our family would probably relocate to my husband's country of citizenship: Panama. Just as corrupt but with nice weather and better food

[Plekhanov]

^ In other words, my World History teacher in high school. Who, I believe, has read quite a few. He's also a world traveler, and wrote an anthropology textbook.

The way he explained it, the Constitution has lasted longer than any single other national government currently in existence, or "on the planet" as I put it in the OP, due to various revolutions, significant changes in governmental power, and such like. For instance, the Parliament has been around for far longer, but its powers and responsibilities have changed drastically. In contrast, the vast majority of the Constitution is still used today as a day-to-day basis of government.

It's not the reason I'm proud of living under it, but it's certainly something to appreciate.

(If someone wants to make a debate regarding "relative age" of the U.S. vs. other governments, PLEASE make it in a new thread...)

I see your teacher is a fan of the ‘no true scotsman fallacy’, anyway by his own standards the US governmental system hasn’t lasted that long and certainly not since 1789 as whilst the constitution may been there since day 1 there have been many significant changes in government power in the US since it was ratified, from the initial attempts at a power grab by the Federalists through the convulsions of the civil war and the very significant growth of federal power during the great depression and WWII which have never really gone away.

To argue that there has been no ‘significant change in governmental power’ in the US since 1789 or that because other systems have evolved other time there’s no continuity of government is just asinine.

[Cairber]

Maybe he meant that it's the longest lasting codified constitution in the world. At least, that's what my history teachers always use to say...

[aerius]

Screw it, I'm Canadian, I'm going to stay here & laugh or if things really start going down the shitter I'll relocate to another country. I'll just encourage my US relatives & friends to get the hell out and leave it at that.

[Molyneux]

"Give me liberty, or give me death."

That pretty much sums up my feelings on the subject.

[Seggybop]

The US is only a piece of land. If the fundies have taken over and are expelling everyone who isn't a moron, I don't see any problem taking up residence in a more agreeable geographical region. Those who stay will be rewarded for their idiocy long-term.