Earl Doherty makes stuff up

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Earl Doherty makes stuff up

Post by God Fearing Atheist »

In the BBC thread, someone commented positively on Early Doherty's mythicist reading Jesus' crucifixion in the Pauline epistles. Because my queries were left unanswered, im going to address the matter here.

Doherty, who for all his flaws is the most thoughtful and convincing mythicist ive ever read, attempts to go beyond "the crucifixion was made up" and provide some sort of positive conception of the event, as he sees it, within the early Church. The key, he thinks, is Middle Platonist cosmology.

At its most basic, Middle Platonism divides the universe up into various "spheres" which can themselves be partitioned into two major categories, sublunar (below the moon) and supralunar (above the moon). These latter spheres are the spheres of heaven; involved in the movement of planetary bodies and the home of angels and God himself, heavenly spheres are unchangeable and incorruptible. Below the moon lies the realm of change and corruptibility. Like the heavenly spheres which were no doubt thought to number many, Doherty believes Middle Platonists subdivided the sublunlar realm. The earth and ordinary sorts of historical events occur in the lowest of these, he says, but above in what I understand him to be saying is the firmament, kinds of spiritual, un-earthly ones. These sublunar spiritual events are in some sense parallel to earthly, fleshy ones, but are not strictly earthly or fleshy as we normally encounter them. The heavenly Jerusalem in John's apocalypse, which Doherty offers in support of his thesis, is like the earthly Jerusalem in that it contains thrones and garments and presumably other kinds of ordinary stuff, but clearly not in an ontologically equivalent sense. Heavenly buildings are not actually made of stone or heavenly garments of cloth.

It is here in the sublunar Twilight Zone of the firmament that Doherty places the crucifixion. Paul, he says, conceived of Jesus as having coming down from the supralunar spheres of heaven into the firmament above the earth where he was crucified by the malevolent demons who make it their home. A nice little package to be sure, but just how consistent with known Middle Platonist belief is Doherty's thesis? The long and short of it is, not in the least.

So far as we are aware, the sublunar realm was a continuous expanse. The earth and normal goings-on were, as in Doherty, located at the bottom. Above this though was not a pseudo-fleshy realm of buildings and crucifixes where a man could be put to death, but air. Actual, ordinary air that we breath. Yes, demons inhabited this space (firmament) between the earth and moon, but this is because they too were made of air (or fire). Yet, aside from demons and two or three other things the ancients considered spiritual (water, fire), we find nothing but birds acting here, which is very explicable. Birds, but not people, buildings or big wooden crosses, are known to traverse our regular every-day sky.

So how does Doherty turn the same regular ol' sky we see when we look up into a parallel world where something like a crucifixion could occur? Primarily in two ways; confusing and conflating happenings in different spheres and drawing undocumented analogies, usually in the form of a rhetorical question.

The Ascension of Isaiah, so key to his argument, is a perfect example of the former. Doherty freely quotes 7.9:

"And we went up into the firmament...for the likeness of that which is in the firmament is here on the earth."

His clear implication is that the author of AoI conceives of the firmament not only as being above the earth, but as mirroring it. The context, however, makes nonsense of this:
7.9. And we ascended to the firmament, I and he, and there I saw Sammael and his hosts, and there was great fighting therein and the angels of Satan were envying one another.

10. And as above so on the earth also; for the likeness of that which is in the firmament is here on the earth.

11. And I said unto the angel (who was with me): "(What is this war and) what is this envying?"

12. And he said unto me: "So has it been since this world was made until now, and this war (will continue) till He, whom thou shalt see will come and destroy him.
Quite simply, the likeness is not general, as Doherty supposes. It does not refer to buildings or clothes or crosses or human-like beings at all, but to fighting and envying. Demons in the sky, like people on the earth proper, fight and envy. Thats the extent of similarity.

Heavenly Jerusalem doesnt work either. How pseudo-earthly things in the spheres of heaven support the hypothesis that Jesus was crucified below the spheres of heaven but above the earth (that is, in the sky), im not entirely sure.

I'll continue later.
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Post by Mange »

One doesn't have to go that far to find that the crucifixion is nothing but a hotch-potch of themes etc. from the Old Testament (unless of course one believes it to be inspired by God, but then one must also believe that God inspired the author of Acts to write almost word-for-word after Euripides :wink: )

Psalms 22 includes many elements that later will form part of the crucifixion myth. I won't include them all, but there are those that are very telling:
Psalms wrote:22:1 My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring?
Psalms wrote:22:18 They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture.
A few other examples from the OT:
Psalms wrote:69:21 They gave me also gall for my meat; and in my thirst they gave me vinegar to drink.
Zecharia wrote:12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
Isaiah wrote:53:5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
Amos wrote:8:9 And it shall come to pass in that day, saith the Lord GOD, that I will cause the sun to go down at noon, and I will darken the earth in the clear day
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Post by Mange »

Besides, if you have reservations, why don't you send an e-mail to Doherty?
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Post by CarsonPalmer »

Mange, being a Christian I believe in the Gospels fairly literally. I'm going to step outside that belief though, and try and debate this a little bit. Couldn't Matthew and Mark in particular have included those elements to attempt to prove Jesus as the Messiah? The crucifixion may have been true without Matthew's allusions to Old Testament propechies and Psalms being the same.
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Post by DPDarkPrimus »

Actually, Mange, it's simply that Jesus was quoting the Psalm when up on the cross. :P
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Post by God Fearing Atheist »

I wonder if you find it significant, Mange, that the traditions with the greatest level of historical support (from several other, independent lines of evidence) are also the ones with the most strained OT parallels?

Even if we can imagine that early Christians were to somehow piece together a bunch of random verses having nothing to do with crucifixion only to end up with a story about Jesus dying on the cross*, dont you think we should take the other data into account as well? In other words, shouldnt the best hypothesis be able to explain the most and not just potentially explain one isolated thing? To that end, let me offer you this possibility; a historical crucifixion makes the best sense of the other available data. The OT parallels are strained, not because early Christians were so stupid or imaginative as to turn that into a crucifixion, but because its an apologetic. If any aspect of the Christian message needed to be rationalized to potential converts, surely it was this. By pouring through the OT and looking for passage that sorta kinda might maybe in some small weird way be applicable to the manner in which Jesus met his end, they just might have been able to convince someone that hey, it wasnt so bad after all.

But I dont want to get distracted by this, at least just yet. The question I posed in the OP is, does Doherty's idea of crucifixion-in-firmament make any sense? Do you think it does, Mange? Where do you see Paul as placing it?

Why have I not questioned Doherty on this via email? Just before writing the OP last night, I had actually considered doing just that. But having seen this issue debated with him elsewhere, I thought better of it. Am I really any more likely to get a response that doesnt spin, duck or dodge the issue? In these fora at least, there is still a possibility of me convincing someone, or someone me.

*When I "crucifixion" I mean the act of crucifixion itself. Not what Jesus is claimed to have said or drank or what happened in the sky after, but having died on the cross.
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Post by Mange »

God Fearing Atheist wrote:I wonder if you find it significant, Mange, that the traditions with the greatest level of historical support (from several other, independent lines of evidence) are also the ones with the most strained OT parallels?
So? I don't think it's remarkable that the authors of the gospels used the OT to prove that Jesus was the Messiah and fulfilled the prophecies of the OT (not that I think that Jesus, as described in the gospels, ever existed). Besides the fact that we know that crucifixion was in use by the Romans, there's no historical support. I'll discuss this below.
God Fearing Atheist wrote:Even if we can imagine that early Christians were to somehow piece together a bunch of random verses having nothing to do with crucifixion only to end up with a story about Jesus dying on the cross*, dont you think we should take the other data into account as well? In other words, shouldnt the best hypothesis be able to explain the most and not just potentially explain one isolated thing? To that end, let me offer you this possibility; a historical crucifixion makes the best sense of the other available data. The OT parallels are strained, not because early Christians were so stupid or imaginative as to turn that into a crucifixion, but because its an apologetic. If any aspect of the Christian message needed to be rationalized to potential converts, surely it was this. By pouring through the OT and looking for passage that sorta kinda might maybe in some small weird way be applicable to the manner in which Jesus met his end, they just might have been able to convince someone that hey, it wasnt so bad after all.
I've already touched upon this (that the authors behind the gospels, Matthew in particular, needed to show that Jesus was the Messiah. Even today, Christians are pointing to these verses in the OT). To accept the crucifixion, one must believe that the gospels describes an actual event, something I'm far from convinced of. Heck, even the books of the NT are undecided on the matter. According to the gospels, Jesus was crucified, but according to Acts, he was "hung from a tree", something that Paul repeats in Gal 3:13. Likewise, the authors of the gospels couldn't agree on several elements of the crucifixion (for example, I mentioned the vinegar. In Matthew it's vinegar mixed with gall, in Mark it's wine mixed with myrrh, in Luke Jesus is offered vinegar and in John it's vinegar). We don't know anything about the circumstances surrounding the crucifixion except for what the gospels are telling us. We have no contemporary accounts of a charismatic Jewish rebel/thinker/whatever who was crucified that would fit the description of Jesus, despite the fact that the Gospels describes how the rumour about Jesus was spread far and wide. There are very strong parallels between the crucifixion of Horus and Jesus (and not to forget the other strong parallels that can be found between the two such as the such as their mission, they performed virtually the same miracles etc. Syncretism has been common throughout history. Other parallels can be found in the Sanghabhedavastu, but personally I think that's a stretch).
God Fearing Atheist wrote:But I dont want to get distracted by this, at least just yet. The question I posed in the OP is, does Doherty's idea of crucifixion-in-firmament make any sense? Do you think it does, Mange? Where do you see Paul as placing it?
My point was that one doesn't have to go that far. I haven't read Doherty so I'll have to get back to you on that (however, from reading the above, I think other scholars, such as Professor Ellegård, has a better position).
God Fearing Atheist wrote:Why have I not questioned Doherty on this via email? Just before writing the OP last night, I had actually considered doing just that. But having seen this issue debated with him elsewhere, I thought better of it. Am I really any more likely to get a response that doesnt spin, duck or dodge the issue? In these fora at least, there is still a possibility of me convincing someone, or someone me.

*When I "crucifixion" I mean the act of crucifixion itself. Not what Jesus is claimed to have said or drank or what happened in the sky after, but having died on the cross.
Well, you can't know for sure unless you try. :wink:
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Post by Mange »

CarsonPalmer wrote:Mange, being a Christian I believe in the Gospels fairly literally. I'm going to step outside that belief though, and try and debate this a little bit. Couldn't Matthew and Mark in particular have included those elements to attempt to prove Jesus as the Messiah? The crucifixion may have been true without Matthew's allusions to Old Testament propechies and Psalms being the same.
Yes, that's what I alluded to in my response to God Fearing Atheist above. However, I've expressed some of my reservations regarding the gospels depicting a historical event.
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Post by wolveraptor »

Should I feel stupid for pointing out that there is no firmament, so crucifiction couldn't occur there? Maybe I'm missing the point. :oops:
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Post by God Fearing Atheist »

wolveraptor wrote:Should I feel stupid for pointing out that there is no firmament, so crucifiction couldn't occur there? Maybe I'm missing the point. :oops:
The issue is how Jesus and his crucifixion were understood by Paul. Doherty is saying, yes, the firmament is a made-up place. And yes, by extension, any crucifixion that occurs there is not history. Jesus was "crucified," but only in myth.

As you can probably tell, I disagree with all that.
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Post by God Fearing Atheist »

This is getting awfully silly. Mange, if you insist on turning the thread into something other than a discussion of Paul's spatial/temporal conception of Jesus, it behooves you to actually do some work.

-I have already explained in the BBC thread that "hanging from a tree" was part of OT law understood as crucifixion in the first century. For fucks sake, Luke wrote a Passion Narrative and Paul repeatedly says Jesus died by crucifixion.

-You say there are "no contemporary accounts" again. I addressed this at length in the other thread. Even if we were to expect contemporary accounts (which we shouldnt), there are no documents of any sort surviving from this period.

-You mention "strong parallels between the crucifixion of Horus and Jesus." That Horus was crucified at all is news to me. Maybe you can cite some ancient sources here? If Horus was crucified, maybe you could show evidence of dependence?

-Posting verses from the OT without further argument is worthless. You need to show an awareness by the NT authors of those verses and their relationship to the narrative. In other words, document an allusion or citation. You need to show that this is consistent with stratification, showing up early in the development of the tradition. You need to show that it is meshes well with the narrative. "Perfect fits" are much easier to explain as theologoumenon than apologetic citations/allusions that are constrained by the historical circumstances. Afer all that, you can explain how whatever it is you're actually proposing makes better sense of all the other data.

I will also remind you one last time that the topic is the crucifixion itself. Not what he drank on the cross. Not if he was pierced by a solider while on the cross.
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Post by Mange »

As I have a feeling that this will be dragged out forever, I concede that it's possible that there once existed a man called Jesus that was joined together with mythological elements to form the gospels (i.e. Paul + Q). Of course, I've never stated that it's impossible, but only to make that clear.
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