Elder Scrolls Oblivion review

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Post by Pablo Sanchez »

Vendetta wrote:Anyone can get a simple Soul Trap spell going.
The point is that in a properly designed RP system it wouldn't be necessary to fuck around with activities that have nothing whatever to do with your character. Would an Orc in heavy armor weilding the hammer Volendrung really be running around with soul gems casting spells from the college of Mysticism?
DPDarkPrimus wrote:I don't even bother using poisons. I just use sneak attacks with my bow and arrow. I never get suprised by an enemy. My gloves have Detect Life at 105 feet. I don't even have the level of Marksman to zoom yet, but I'm so practiced at firing arrows that I can jump up (while still in stealth mode) and fire an arrow at an enemy ~100 feet away behind an obstruction AND NAIL THEM for a one-hit kill. I should make a skills video or something.
Instant bow kills with sneak attack works for me against lower level enemies, but in my case the upper range of enemies like Valkynaz and Xivilai invariably took 3-4 hits at 3x damage to kill, unless I poisoned them (in which case they perished after a few seconds). Are you doing anything special to affect the results?

I also think it's kind of silly how the AI in the game can't cope with long-ranged combat. If you tag an unsuspecting enemy from far enough away, they'll draw their weapon and then just stand there waiting for you to hit them again, and their buddies won't even notice them dying.
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Post by DPDarkPrimus »

Pablo Sanchez wrote:
Vendetta wrote:Anyone can get a simple Soul Trap spell going.
The point is that in a properly designed RP system it wouldn't be necessary to fuck around with activities that have nothing whatever to do with your character. Would an Orc in heavy armor weilding the hammer Volendrung really be running around with soul gems casting spells from the college of Mysticism?
No, he'd be using the Soul Gems to recharge his hammer Volendrung. :P

DPDarkPrimus wrote:I don't even bother using poisons. I just use sneak attacks with my bow and arrow. I never get suprised by an enemy. My gloves have Detect Life at 105 feet. I don't even have the level of Marksman to zoom yet, but I'm so practiced at firing arrows that I can jump up (while still in stealth mode) and fire an arrow at an enemy ~100 feet away behind an obstruction AND NAIL THEM for a one-hit kill. I should make a skills video or something.
Instant bow kills with sneak attack works for me against lower level enemies, but in my case the upper range of enemies like Valkynaz and Xivilai invariably took 3-4 hits at 3x damage to kill, unless I poisoned them (in which case they perished after a few seconds). Are you doing anything special to affect the results?
Ah. I do use the "Deadlier Sneak" mod, although even with it turned off, I have a nice stockpile of Glass and Ebony arrows that would make them cry. As it is, I'm just using Steel arrows, but I'm at a point where Ogres are taking two shots to take down (they're the only enemy I've encountered that needs two so far, oddly).
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Post by Vendetta »

DPDarkPrimus wrote: Ah. I do use the "Deadlier Sneak" mod, although even with it turned off, I have a nice stockpile of Glass and Ebony arrows that would make them cry. As it is, I'm just using Steel arrows, but I'm at a point where Ogres are taking two shots to take down (they're the only enemy I've encountered that needs two so far, oddly).
I actually think it's good to have a cap on your sneak damage multiplier. There is only so much advantage you can take of a surprise attack, and enemies don't suddenly grow new and more vulnerable weak spots for you to poke at.

The rest of Sneak is there to make sure you get that sneak attack.

Personally, I love poisons. A good long acting Damage Health poison has let me twat someone in the gizzards, go and get myself arrested, and walk back to their twisted corpse, having let my vile juices do their work. (I'll have to remember the Silence thing for spider daedra though, their little ankle biters are annoying)
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Post by Ace Pace »

Okay, stupid question, how do I apply my damaging potions to an arrow or weapon?
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Post by Vympel »

Ace Pace wrote:Okay, stupid question, how do I apply my damaging potions to an arrow or weapon?
Just "drink" them while holding the intended weapon.
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Post by Ace Pace »

I didn't want to try that because I thought it would impact me, Okay.
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Post by Vympel »

Ace Pace wrote:I didn't want to try that because I thought it would impact me, Okay.
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Post by Ace Pace »

Vympel wrote:
Ace Pace wrote:I didn't want to try that because I thought it would impact me, Okay.
Quicksave is your friend :)
Heh, yes, but I dislike saves ;)
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Post by Pablo Sanchez »

Vendetta wrote:I actually think it's good to have a cap on your sneak damage multiplier. There is only so much advantage you can take of a surprise attack, and enemies don't suddenly grow new and more vulnerable weak spots for you to poke at.
Seriously.
Personally, I love poisons. A good long acting Damage Health poison has let me twat someone in the gizzards, go and get myself arrested, and walk back to their twisted corpse, having let my vile juices do their work. (I'll have to remember the Silence thing for spider daedra though, their little ankle biters are annoying)
Poisons are really invaluable in stand-up fights, and once you get past the first few levels the Assassin class is maybe the deadliest type of character (haven't played a mage yet, so I don't know for sure). What you do is you carry a number of weapons, each of which is hotkeyed (daggers are fairly light so they're good for this) and before you enter a combat you poison all of them. Then when you enter combat you can sting your enemies with various poisons and put them at dire disadvantage before you switch back to your main weapon (I used Ebony Blade from the Mephala quest).

[I actually refused to keep Umbra for roleplaying reasons, since the sword is supposed to eventually take over the owners personality--though I guess whether your character, the latest Elder Scrolls legendary hero, would succumb is debateable.]
Last edited by Pablo Sanchez on 2006-04-08 03:10pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Hotfoot »

Or, if you like to save weight and time, you can simply apply poisons between swings in combat.
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Post by DPDarkPrimus »

Vendetta wrote: Personally, I love poisons. A good long acting Damage Health poison has let me twat someone in the gizzards, go and get myself arrested, and walk back to their twisted corpse, having let my vile juices do their work. (I'll have to remember the Silence thing for spider daedra though, their little ankle biters are annoying)
Unfortunately, silencing those bitches does not diable their ability to summon their anklebiters. :?

I can kill the bitch before she can summon another to replace it when I kill it though, so it's not that big of a deal.
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Post by Pablo Sanchez »

Hotfoot wrote:Or, if you like to save weight and time, you can simply apply poisons between swings in combat.
I think the fact that you can do that is a little goofy so I didn't do it, like how there's a four potion "limit" when you're drinking them but if you tab out of your inventory and right back in you can drink more. Logically speaking the game shouldn't allow you to poison a weapon in the middle of a fight. What do you do, call a time out so you can pull out your bottle of poison and carefully apply it to your weapon?
DPDarkPrimus wrote:Unfortunately, silencing those bitches does not diable their ability to summon their anklebiters.
It always worked for me, either because they were unable to do it or because their AI changed from "stay at range and cast spells" to "run up and punch that guy".
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Post by Vendetta »

Pablo Sanchez wrote: [I actually refused to keep Umbra for roleplaying reasons, since the sword is supposed to eventually take over the owners personality--though I guess whether your character, the latest Elder Scrolls legendary hero, would succumb is debateable.]
The reason I don't use Umbra is because my home-made Daedric longsword with ten points each of health absorb, fire, frost, and shock is preferable.
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Post by Netko »

Slightly offtopic, but has anyone seen Gamespot's Oblivion PC vs. XBOX comparison? I'm once again stunned at how poorly (and biased) so-called proffesionals write articles. Especialy bad was the screenshot comparison. I'm running the game on a 2ghz AthlonXP, Radeon 9600XT 128mb and 1gb of RAM at 800x600 with default details, no AA but some of the advanced features turned on. This is barely above the minimum specs, yet my graphics (at an acceptable framerate) look like a cross between the 360 and their PC medium specs unlike the crap they are peddling as their minimum graphics.

Seems like some of those MS marketing dollars found new owners...
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Post by Vympel »

I tried to fight Umbra and Vindasel. I died. Quickly.

Guess I need to level up a bit more, eh?
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Post by Pablo Sanchez »

mmar wrote:Seems like some of those MS marketing dollars found new owners...
That article is hilarious.

1. I'm pretty sure it's common knowledge that the XBOX 360 can't pump out graphics as well as even a midrange PC, so any reasonably aware gamer should know the screenshots comparison is bunk. All you need is a passing familiarity with hardware and a list of what's inside the 360's case to know that.

2. Anybody who owns the PC version can tell that they're using biased criteria to produce the PC screenies, and the text below the comparisons is a bit of a joke. I especially like the one for the "Mid-range PC" where they say that the XBOX version looks better--the most cursory examination shows that the XBOX screenies looks blurry and washed out.

3. The whole "Controls and Interface" section. A first person game that plays better with a gamepad than with a mouse and keyboard? Umm... no.

My favorite part of this section was when they said, "The 360 controller also offers a rumble feature, which makes the action more tactile and slightly more intense." As if I'm supposed to be impressed a vibrating controller. What year is this, 1997?

4. The "special features" section--also hilarious. They try to compare the PC version's modability to XBOX live's "gamerscore" system. Let me think about that one... modifications that can change every aspect of the game from mundane details to nearly rewriting the entire experience versus an electronic sticker collection.

Hard choice.
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Post by Nieztchean Uber-Amoeba »

Glargh, on my new character the epilogue to the Thieves Guild (While the Gray Fox and the countess are yacking, and he says "I pass the leadership to my friend" or something) is glitched and stops in the middle every time. Anyone know the item code for the Gray Fox's mask?
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Post by Stark »

That comparison is pretty funny. Like a previous poster, I have pretty average hardware and I run Oblivion at med-high settings with draw distance for almost everything higher than 50%. It looks better than the 360 pics, although in combat framerate drops.

What's funny is the way they've deliberately turned 'distant land' off. It has almost zero performance hit on my machine, but they turned it off to make the 360 look better. Open question to SDN: has anyone seen Oblivion run on a machine that has the distance fog, and what specs did it have?

Actually, my puter doesn't play 'footstep' sounds most of the time. I'll get maybe one 'footstep' sound every 20m or so. My friends all have constant footsteps, but I'm told the footsteps are done in a really resource-intensive way. Why am I losing the sounds, and should I just turn them off anyway?
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Post by Brother-Captain Gaius »

As people have noted, middling hardware runs Oblivion very very well.

I have a similar problem to Stark, except it's shadows and water ripples, not footsteps. They'll just disappear and reappear on my PC and other characters seemingly at random.
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Post by Brother-Captain Gaius »

It's been about three weeks now, and I thought I would update my impressions, from my initial ones.

Frankly, I'm just feeling a little bummed out by it all, kind of like Stark. It is definitely a Good Game™, but falls short of what a TESIV should have been. In my opinion, it trades too much of Morrowind's depth and content for glitz and flashy gimmicks. I managed to screw up my saves awhile ago due to a stupid error on my part, and where it Morrowind I would have felt two things: Extreme anguish at having lost dozens of hours of progress, and a perverse happiness at now needing to create a new character and get a fresh experience. I felt neither of these at losing my Oblivion characters, and it was at that point I truly knew it failed to stand up to TESIII's legacy. There are sizable portions of Morrowind I still have not fully explored (granted, that is including the expansions), and literally every time I make a new character, I discover some new quest, adventure, or dungeon. And yet in Oblivion, I already feel like I've tasted 95% of what it has to offer.

Some of these have been touched on in this thread, but I'll list and split my issues into two groups here: Game and Lore.

The Game: The mechanics, conventions, engine, and other elements related to the game independent of Cyrodiil, Tamriel, and Nirn.
  • Content.

    I feel like I've basically done everything. There is no point to playing as thoroughly as I did in TESIII. I have not even touched the Thieves' Guild yet, but it doesn't seem like it will offer anything very unique. I blew through the Arena to Champion in less than an hour with a fresh-out-of-prison character. The only reason I didn't go for Grand Champion is I wanted to do the Gray Prince quest, but didn't really feel like doing it at the time.

    The dungeons feel virtually identical. Explore one of each type and you've explored them all: Ayleid Ruin, Cavern, Oblivion Tower, and Ruined Fort. And while the Oblivion areas are really well done in terms of mood and atmosphere, they are probably the worst offenders: All of them follow the same simplistic formula of "Hunt for Tower Entrance, Fight Through Tower, Take Sigil Stone." The rest of them are also good, but rarely great. It feels practically like hack'n'slash, just going through a dungeon, chopping everything up repetitively, and grabbing all the (ultimately meaningless, see below) loot. And while Morrowind's dungeons could also be said to follow fairly rigid "tilesets" as well, they all felt unique and had more atmosphere: Sixth House hideouts creeped me the fuck out, and Red Mountain and its blight storms made me grit my teeth in discomfort (in a good way, mind).
  • Level Scaling.

    It's been hounded and generally regarded as universally stupid, so I'll go sparingly here. Its offenses are twofold: The more commonly complained about scaling of enemies, so they always match you, and the issue of linear and scaled equipment/loot.

    Enemies: As everyone knows, it's stupid. Thankfully mods are starting to appear to begin to rectify this heinous abomination of a design decision. Every single Daedra-damned moron in all of Cyrodiil has the equipment and experience to generally match you exactly in combat, necessitating either 1) epic battles of infinite destruction that quickly lose that 'epic' qualifier by virtue of happening every five feet of travel along a country road, or 2) turning down the difficulty, which yields what is essentially hack'n'slash. Bo-ring.

    Then, of course, there is the issue that everything in Cyrodiil is accomplishable by you at virtually any time, and is never easy and never too hard. Nice occasionally, shitty most of the time.

    And finally, because nothing is ever easy and everyone and everything matches you, there is no sense of accomplishment or having really ever done anything in the first place.

    Equipment/Loot: Similar to the above, the equipment and loot found around is always matched to your level. Quest rewards are scaled, which again is nice sometimes, but ultimately pretty shitty. This whole system necessitates a linear progression of gear, and tied with the very limited selections available in Oblivion as compared to Morrowind, yields a very boring set of equipment. It's like playing a Diablo clone: First you use the iron, then you use the steel, then you use... and so on, ad nauseam until you max out your character. This was never an issue in Morrowind; higher-end stuff was not only not necessarily linearly better, it was also rare and a real treaure to find. High-end gear in Oblivion is junk because you can just get more off a bandit. Rant continues below in the Lore section.
  • Plot.

    Not so much the story itself, which is covered below, but just the general questline and pacing of the core game progression. Admittedly, this is somewhat controversial, as many were put off by Morrowind's slow, ambiguous main quest. I, however, quite enjoyed it. As is typical of The Elder Scrolls, you are working for the Emperor in some way or another, with the Blades. Generally spies in the previous games, but knights in TESIV (more on that later, though). This in itself reflects a core philosophy change; there is a greater focus on quick-paced direct action and straightforward quests, over Morrowind's indirect assignments, go at your own pace feel, and all-around depth. Caius kept you funded and on the right track. Martin just kind of goes "hay lol i need dis item now kkthx??" in my opinion.



OBLIVION MAIN QUEST SPOILERS BELOW. SKIP THIS SECTION IF YOU HAVE NOT FINISHED!!







The Lore: Aspects pertaining to the story and universe of The Elder Scrolls.

AGAIN: OBLIVION MAIN QUEST SPOILERS. SKIP THIS SECTION IF YOU HAVE NOT FINISHED!!
  • Main Story.

    Morrowind knocks the socks off of Oblivion. TESIII was a slow, epic build-up of power, resources, and fame across Vvardenfell, all culminating in a truly titanic battle (well, if you didn't twink your character before fighting Dagoth Ur, anyways). You are Saint Nerevar and everybody knows it... except you, perhaps, because it is left fairly ambiguous whether it's all an ancient prophecy fulfilled, a convenient set of coincidences, or a fiendishly clever Imperial intelligence op (Azura seems to think the first, but I doubt she really cares as long as the mess is cleaned up, nor is she necessarily omniscient anyways).

    Compared with Oblivion: You're the champion... yay... have some shitty armor. Preceeded by a pretty simple, relatively short run around Cyrodiil killing things and grabbing spell components for ol' Martin. Some nice, reasonably unique quests in there... one undercover op that ends with pigeon-holed scripting, a few pitched battles that also end in pre-determined scripting (see where I'm going with this?), and so on. No advancement with the Blades, unlike Morrowind, and, ironically, no real emotional investment with the involved characters. One of Oblivion's stated goals was to breathe life into the NPCs, and yet when I learned Caius was being recalled on political orders I said, "Oh shit," but when I found Jauffre and Baurus's (scripted, insofar as I can tell) corpses outside the Bruma gates I just said, "Lame," not because Grandmaster Jauffre and Brother Baurus had been slain, but because the writers had offed them for no apparant reason. Even more insulting was the fact that the battlefield was otherwise devoid of my and the soldiers' handiwork, except for the equally-indignantly slain Captain Burd.

    The final battle is understandably deus ex machina-ish, but that's forgivable, because hey, he's the Emperor, not you. End of the Third Age and all that jazz. But it wasn't very climactic, and there's no excuse for that. If anything I was frustrated by the "hey, let's send infinite hordes at the player to piss them off," mentality (compounded by the retarded AI diving in front of Daedra about to be smitten by my hand).
  • The Elder Scrolls.

    One of my favorite things about Morrowind was the undeniable sense that you were part of a larger world. The thing that always sent me reeling was that the events of TESIV were foreshadowed expertly. And in that respect, Oblivion really dropped the ball on some things. Caius talks of troubles in the Imperial City; the Emperor's poor health, dubious succession due to the events of Arena, and eventual recall for political reasons. They missed a no-brainer of a cameo there: One of TESIII's most memorable NPCs, a high-ranking member of the Blades, specifically recalled to the Imperial City due to the threat of the Emperor's impending death and ensuing problems, and... nothing. It was set up perfectly! Yeesh!

    As Pablo touched on, the Nerevarine is trivialized. There's some talk of politics progressing in Morrowind: King Helseth's reforms, Redoran and Indoril faltering in the face of Hlaalu, and other such things, but little talk of the huge impact the Nerevarine otherwise had in pure canon (Almalexia, Dagoth Ur, and Sotha Sil dead, Vivec MIA; Heart of Llorkhan and Akhulikhan destroyed; Kangrenac's Tools unearthed, and so on).

    And after all the buildup, the foreshadowing, the marketing and hype, and the game itself, it just feels like a very unsatisfactory end to a critical point in the Elder Scrolls series.
  • Aesthetics.

    Where'd Rome go? As I've posted several times before, why did Bethesda feel it necessary to directly rewrite the established Elder Scrolls style? This is Cyrodiil, right? Other than the cathedrals, most of the style seems to have disapppeared. Everything feels like "generic fantasy world," not Tamriel. Most of the equipment is boring or outright ugly.

    What happened to male dark elf voices?

    What happened to wood elf eyes?

    What happened to real Daedric shrines (as opposed to these sissy stand-alone statues in the wilderness)? Where's Ashurnibiptashi?

    And for their home province, I expected to see a lot more Cyrodiils living there.

I think I still have a few lingering issues, but that's all I can transcribe for now.
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Post by Stark »

I'd like to agree with BCG. If I seem negative about Oblivion, it's simply that it really is good for a few weeks, and it's the poor decisions made that take it down a peg from 'instant classic' to 'really disappointing'.

His point that he feels like he's done everything sums up my feelings exactly. I didn't even finish the main quest: after farting about for a while and noticing the poor mission design and how much they lean on scripting, it didn't interest me. But in Morrowind I avoided the main quest by being fascinated by Dwemer history and playing Indiana Jones, tracking down crazy information, killing problems all over the island etc. In Oblivion, I just don't care enough to bother.

The loss of all the background to the Imperial-Morrowind relationship and the Morrowind political scene is appalling. In ESIII there was more books on the subject than I ever read: it's trivialised into insignificance in Oblivion. Frankly, this is obviously due to Beth trying to break into the lucrative console market.

It's just a great big missed opportunity.
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Post by Vympel »

Fuck, spoiled myself re: Jauffre and Baurus. Oh well, doesn't matter.

As far as where the Morrowind Daedric Shrines went, I look at it this way- Cyrodil is the capital of the Empire, and as such, I can't imagine they'd look too kindly on huge, and more importantly, evil-looking Daedric shrines all over the landscape.
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Post by Vympel »

In other news, I'm at my wits end with the amount of gear I can carry. I know it's unrealistic to be able to loot the corpses of a bunch of guards in heavy armor in a dungeon in one go, but I'm sick and tired of making multiple trips to a dungeon I've cleaned out to sell all their shit. So I've downloaded a mod that dramatically increases the strength/carry ratio. I did not buy this game to spend all my time running to and from dungeons I've cleaned out.
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Post by Arrow »

I think the root of the problem is that Bethesda really fucked up their priorities on this game. They want to have everything voiced acted, with big name actors for the three central characters. That right there cost them a lot of money, for little return, spent time and disk space on what otherwise could be devoted to addition story and text.

Next, while they're putting together their huge, forested world (on a shitty engine - I'll never respect Gamebryo), they didn't do much to help their area designers and content creaters. Don't get me wrong, I love the huge forest. And granted, I've had all of 30 minutes with the contruction set, but I don't see it as being a huge improvement on Morrowind CS. Yes, it now has a tree control breaking out items into subcatagories. Big whoop; each subcatagory is still a fucking big table. I tried once to make a new area in the Morrowind CS, and couldn't do it; in the mean time, I was able to put together a huge area for testing characters in Neverwinter, all in a couple of hours. Beth's tools programmers really need to be ashamed of themselves; and they really, REALLY need to look at the other tools out their use them as a guide for tools should do.

And then there's the console "dumbing down issue". When I first heard about the changes, I didn't think they were going to be a big issue, but I was wrong. The game is poorer for it. Next time BethSoft, FUCK THE WHINE BRATS THAT CAN'T FIGURE IT OUT!

And while you're at it - USE A REAL ENGINE WITH REAL TOOLS!!!!!!
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Post by Luzifer's right hand »

I agree that Morrowind was much more fun to explore. There was always the possibility that you could find some nice unique item, the right daedric pauldron ;) or a hard enemy.

However I prefer level scaling to the boringness that was Morrowind at high levels(Bloodmoon and Tribunal had some kickass enemies though). Although a system which levels only the quest enemies and has no impact on their equipment would be better.

The main quest is not very good but ther other quest are most of the time much more interesing than ones in Morrowind. In Morrowind the main quest was rather cool and the other quests sucked.
A cool main quest and cool side quest would be better of course.
I really like the DB quests were it is in fact hard to kill innocents without being detected, unlike on Morrowind were you could kill someone in the middle of the room with 3 people standing nearby and nobody saw the killing.

The Ayleids are also rather boring compared to the Dwemer.

Morrrowind was never my favourite RPG though maybe that's the reason why I'm still happy with the game.
Vympel wrote:Fuck, spoiled myself re: Jauffre and Baurus. Oh well, doesn't matter.

As far as where the Morrowind Daedric Shrines went, I look at it this way- Cyrodil is the capital of the Empire, and as such, I can't imagine they'd look too kindly on huge, and more importantly, evil-looking Daedric shrines all over the landscape.
Jauffre and Baurus can survive. They did not die when I played the main quest.
I asked The Lord, "Why hath thou forsaken me?" And He spoke unto me saying, "j00 R n00b 4 3VR", And I was like "stfu -_-;;"
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