Would saving the US Constitution be worth your life? (Hypo.)

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Sacrifice yourself for American ideals?

Yes
44
56%
No
34
44%
 
Total votes: 78

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Simplicius
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Post by Simplicius »

Cao Cao wrote:I'm scared stiff of death.. the mere thought depresses me greatly.. if you really had to make the choice, to plunge into the darkness that final time.. would it really be so black and white?
The OP specifies that you "take certain actions that will result in your own death". The fact that death is an outcome of your actions to save the country, rather than the action that saves the country, might make the choice superficially more palatable, since you can pretend to yourself that you stand a chance of cheating fate.
Cao Cao wrote:It is essentially difficult to see how one act could halt the coming storm.
If America were sliding down the path to a bigotted theocracy at best one's sacrifice might postpone it.. but destroy it outright? I doubt it.
Ignoring the fact that the hypothetical guarantees that your efforts will succeed...

Since you're acting in the present to prevent a possible future, you have the advantage that the situation is not yet so bad it can't be salvaged. Imagine you choose to lead an opposition movement - the people you're trying to win over are the people alive at this very moment. You can see what wins them over and what doesn't; hell, just by studying the media and politicians you can see what buttons to push and how to push them. Because you're trying to prevent a theocratic dictatorship rather than postpone one, you start off from the comparatively advantageous position of mildly shifting a status quo. You don't have to fight that dictatorship directly. The populace you are trying to sway aren't a bunch of theocratic drones; the implication is that they are on the fence and can be persuaded. With an appropriately packaged message, a sufficiently large group of people aiding you, and effective dissemination techniques, I see no reason why such an effort is doomed to fail.

Think of it as a political campaign, with you at the head of the Use Your Common Sense and Kick The Unamerican Fuckwits Out of Power Party.
Cao Cao wrote: Well that whole partisan politics thing is a heavy blow to democratic elections.
More people should be interested in the leader, not the party.
The problem is as much the self-serving character of established parties and career politicans as anything else.

Large political parties, as obnoxious as they are, serve one useful purpose by lumping together people of vaguely similar ideologies into one mass: they prevent the excessive splitting of the vote.

If, instead of the bloated Democratictic and Republican parties, there were a plethora of smaller parties, the chance that a party's candidate will win an election without having an actual majority of the vote increases - arguably an even less democratic result than people being forced to choose between two or three parties.

Also, don't forget that even though large parties take in crazy fringe groups, it's better for a fringe group to be constrained by the need to compromise with other blocs rather than running around loose. NSDAP, anyone?
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Post by Lord of the Abyss »

18-Till-I-Die wrote: Who do you think VOTED FOR BUSH TWICE? Wasnt me. I'm willing to bet it wasnt Lord of the Abyss, and probably not you either, just a guess.
True. As for the rest, you made my arguements for me before I got around to it.
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Post by 18-Till-I-Die »

Morilore wrote:
18-Till-I-Die wrote:For the single reason it might be better under any other government than the one in the OP, of course i would do it.

But the OP is designed to get that response. Its a dystopia, the idea is to make it bad.
That's not what you said earlier.
18-Till-I-Die also wrote:And if you're right and they are THAT stupid then why should anyone die for them? Or fight them? Let them be stupid, wallow in their own mess like a pig, and die off so the rest of humanity that has advanecd into the, at a minimum, 19th century can continue to function.
I was referring to the assertion by Zero that the reason the country is fucked up is because peopel who care are leaving "running away like bitches". I wasnt referring to the OP. Basically that was an off-topic rant, at the time i didnt think to specify it. So my mistake.
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Post by CarsonPalmer »

Lord of the Abyss, neither of you has actually responded to your posts. You have ignored posts by me, Zero, and Morilore. We have made our arguments. Concede, or make yours.
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Post by Lord of the Abyss »

CarsonPalmer wrote:Lord of the Abyss, neither of you has actually responded to your posts. You have ignored posts by me, Zero, and Morilore. We have made our arguments. Concede, or make yours.
What are you talking about ? I answered your first, and AFAICT 18 answered the others while I was elsewhere.

Besides, what am I supposed to "concede" ? There's no objective, factual question involved, only personal opinion.
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Post by 18-Till-I-Die »

CarsonPalmer wrote:Lord of the Abyss, neither of you has actually responded to your posts. You have ignored posts by me, Zero, and Morilore. We have made our arguments. Concede, or make yours.
First, i didnt see your previous post, it was kind of hidden there between some other posts so my bad.

Second what IS your argument? That these people are too stupid to se ethe forest for the trees? Besides the fact thats incredibly insulting, i would like to see where you got this idea.

Third, if you mean make my argument about the topic, you're right i shouldnt have gone off on that off-topic rant. I would probably do it to try and save lives, kill myself to overthrow that dystopia that is. But i doubt it would completely go away, it would remain and rebuild.
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Post by CarsonPalmer »

My argument is that its rather unfair to hold all of America responsible for Bush because nearly half voted against him, during his first campaign, a close election, people that would have voted Democratic had their votes split to a third party, and Kerry ran a shitty campaign, whereas Karl Rove jumped on Kerry's errors agressively.
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Post by 18-Till-I-Die »

CarsonPalmer wrote:My argument is that its rather unfair to hold all of America responsible for Bush because nearly half voted against him, during his first campaign, a close election, people that would have voted Democratic had their votes split to a third party, and Kerry ran a shitty campaign, whereas Karl Rove jumped on Kerry's errors agressively.
I wasnt holding them responsible for Bush i mentioned Bush's second election as one of the many, many things going wrong in this country today. Its more than that, and i mentioned more than that. There is also the growth of corporate powers, the blurring of church and state, the anti-gay hysteria gaining power, the expansion of the neocons and the religious right hand in hand, the way most people seem to just shrugg offthe constant downward spiral ofthe Iraq war (with tens possibly hundreds of thousands dead) and other issues.

Basically though i made an off-topic rant and i was just doing so to counter the argument that the country is bad now because people who care are "running like bitches". They're leaving because there is nothing left to fight for, or die for, other than to get out while the getting is good...and IN FACT most arent leaving there is just only so much a small group of concerned peole can do and most dont have the timeor money to do more.
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Post by Lord of the Abyss »

CarsonPalmer wrote:My argument is that its rather unfair to hold all of America responsible for Bush because nearly half voted against him, during his first campaign, a close election, people that would have voted Democratic had their votes split to a third party, and Kerry ran a shitty campaign, whereas Karl Rove jumped on Kerry's errors agressively.
The fact that it was even remotely close between Bush and Kerry ( or almost anyone else ) demonstrates just how stupid and/or evil America collectively is.
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Post by 18-Till-I-Die »

Lord of the Abyss wrote:
CarsonPalmer wrote:My argument is that its rather unfair to hold all of America responsible for Bush because nearly half voted against him, during his first campaign, a close election, people that would have voted Democratic had their votes split to a third party, and Kerry ran a shitty campaign, whereas Karl Rove jumped on Kerry's errors agressively.
The fact that it was even remotely close between Bush and Kerry ( or almost anyone else ) demonstrates just how stupid and/or evil America collectively is.
I wouldnt say 'evil' but thats another discussion...

And i dont think its ALL Americans either.

Howveer the MAJORITY, and yes perhaps a small majority, of the US does indeed go for Bush.
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Post by 18-Till-I-Die »

"Small majority" that sounds retarded...

Let me rephrase...

It is clear that a majority, and perhaps only by a small margin but still a majority, do indeed go for Bush.
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Post by CarsonPalmer »

Ah. Lord of the Abyss, do you seriously believe that all republicans, and all people who voted for Bush are evil?
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Post by Lord of the Abyss »

CarsonPalmer wrote:Ah. Lord of the Abyss, do you seriously believe that all republicans, and all people who voted for Bush are evil?
Evil, or fools, or just stupid.
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Post by CarsonPalmer »

So, in your view, there is no legitimate reason to have voted for Bush, at all, correct? Why, exactly, is everyone who voted for Bush either evil or a fool?
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Post by Anguirus »

Whoa, this has become quite a topic. And the poll's a 30-23 split. :shock:
It is essentially difficult to see how one act could halt the coming storm.
If America were sliding down the path to a bigotted theocracy at best one's sacrifice might postpone it.. but destroy it outright? I doubt it.
I agree, which is why I phrased the question the way I did.

I consider the scenario I postulated here to be unlikely, at best. Too many people would rise up before it got to this point. As little as I think of Bush, I have little doubt that even HE would work to prevent such a scenario.

My uncertainty stemmed from not knowing, if such a worst-case scenario happened, whether it would be worth my own life to prevent. Hence the hypothetical, which I'm still puzzling over (though the responses have certainly given me food for thought).

One more thing I think is interesting is that I didn't say a thing about blacks, but several posts assumed that they would be deported, too.
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Post by Lord of the Abyss »

CarsonPalmer wrote:So, in your view, there is no legitimate reason to have voted for Bush, at all, correct? Why, exactly, is everyone who voted for Bush either evil or a fool?
Because we already had four years of him demonstrating what a vile, corrupt, incompetent excuse for a President he is.
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Post by Kamakazie Sith »

Lord of the Abyss wrote:
CarsonPalmer wrote:My argument is that its rather unfair to hold all of America responsible for Bush because nearly half voted against him, during his first campaign, a close election, people that would have voted Democratic had their votes split to a third party, and Kerry ran a shitty campaign, whereas Karl Rove jumped on Kerry's errors agressively.
The fact that it was even remotely close between Bush and Kerry ( or almost anyone else ) demonstrates just how stupid and/or evil America collectively is.
Bush = 62,040,606 or 51% of the vote, and 286 EV
Kerry = 59,028,109 or 48% of the vote, and 252 EV
Nader = 411,304 or 1% of the vote, and 0 EV

Going by those numbers a total of 121,480,019 voted. Which leaves 176,964,196 people who did not vote.

Collectively indeed... :roll:
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Post by Kamakazie Sith »

Note - I did not take into consideration those not of age to vote...
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Post by RedImperator »

Lord of the Abyss wrote:First, there's the usual list of American nastiness and stupidity; Iraq, electing Bush and the other Republicans, rabid greed, environmental destruction, general religious lunacy, homophobia, hatred of the poor, racism, etc.
So you care so much about the poor, homosexuals, and minorites that you'll....say "fuck you guys, you're on your own" and let things get much much worse for them?
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Post by RogueIce »

Yes, I would. If we go by the OP, and somehow my death will keep America free and with liberty, the Constitution intact and viable, and (most important) prevent the suffering of millions of people, then it's not even an issue. I would do it. And if I weren't prepared for such a sacrifice (should it be needed) I would not be persuing the career that I am now.

Hint: I ain't joining for the money.
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Post by Plushie »

As a man and an American, I could never bring myself to live in a world where the Great Experiment has finally and completely failed. I would fight such a transition and, if I knew for a fact that it would prevent it, I would die in that fight.

However, as my great-uncle (former marine, gung-ho guy, fun to be around) always told me "Now Mike, Patton was a very smart soldier. Quite a few things he didn't know about the world, but he was a soldier. He said once that a man's job as a soldier isn't to die for his country but to make the other bastard die for his. And god damn it if he wasn't right". Since, chances are, I would never be in a position to single-handedly prevent such a transition, death or no, I would join a resistance against the government and help fight for liberty until death claimed me anyway.
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Post by 18-Till-I-Die »

CarsonPalmer wrote:So, in your view, there is no legitimate reason to have voted for Bush, at all, correct? Why, exactly, is everyone who voted for Bush either evil or a fool?
Can you name one LOGICAL reason to vote for Bush? Second election, the first i can give you. After the truth about the war, WMDs, torture etc came out what reason would people have to vote for Bush?

I keep saying i disagree these people are 'fools'. I dont think the average person is stupid or unable to read the writing on the wall. I think though a (yes perhaps narrow) majority of VOTERS (the people who in the long run actually have opinions heard, since non-voters have basically declared themselves persona non grata on the political scene) agree with Bush's standings. And with Bush its an all or nothing thing, i cant see how someone could say "Well the war was shit, he lied about WMDs, he's manufactured a cataclysm...but i'm a fiscal conservitive soooo..." these people ARENT STUPID they know what they're doing. And they fucking know what they did.

Are they 'evil', thats debatable. From the perspective of one of the millions of liberals, non-Christans, gays, etc who are being shat upon by this government--yes they're 'evil'. From their point of view we're all evil Godless atheist liberal gay-lover pigs who diserve to burn in hell (even me, and i'm not even an atheist, though i admit to being a liberal pacifist tree-hugger, etc, etc).

And i dont mean to sound hostile, i'm just pointing out the flaw in the "they only voted for the Republicans" logic is the MAJORITY would have to for that to work, so the assertion, the majority like the way Bush was running things, is valid.
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Post by 18-Till-I-Die »

Ghetto edit byoch!

"Non-voters"=people who are OLD ENOUGH but choose not to vote. Obviously people who arent able to legally vote have a good reason not to, people who are but are too lazy to get up and do it do not. Fuck if you want to throw your vote away is all, vote for Nader, at least you tried, even if it was a fool's hope to vote for a third parter in the US.
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Post by The Guid »

Cairber wrote:Maybe he meant that it's the longest lasting codified constitution in the world. At least, that's what my history teachers always use to say...
Also wrong, that's in the Penisula of Mount Athos in Greece which has been constant for nearly one and a half thousand years. That's before even your mother country was formed!
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Post by CarsonPalmer »

But 18, how many think that way out of malice, and how many only know what they've been taught? Earlier you said there is nothing left to fight for, but the battle hasn't been lost. Some people on the right have talked of a culture war, and this is true. The weapons in this particular war are education and information. If we run without even having fired a shot, the battle is already lost.
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