Moderator: Thanas
Do you know anything about console gaming or are you just a flaming PC-wanker ?Vympel wrote:Bla Bla what's a Wavebird what's an Eyetoy
I know that. Doesn't change the argument a bit- I'm not talking about a specific game here.Praxis wrote: 1) It's NOT a light gun game. From the looks of it you don't point on the screen to shoot and from the text it's not on rails. Instead, the gun copies your movement; tilt the controller to the side, the gun tilts to the side, move it to the left, the onscreen gun goes left. Exactly like a mouse except in 3D space.
I read them before I even got into the thread. I've seen nothing to impress me- if anything, I've been generally disappointed with the standard of coverage, as I usually am when it comes to early previews. It reminds me of "Will Wright! Pee on Us!" from Penny Arcade.2) Vympel, I respect you a lot and usually expect to lose when I argue with you, but I feel you are being willfully (or maybe genuinely) ignorant on this subject. Have you bothered to read ANY of the hands-on impressions?
Maybe they didn't go to the gym enoughA few I've read talked about how at first they tried waving the controller in the air but their hands started to get a bit tired.
So basically, they were using it as an ersatz-mouse. It's still stupid. Think about it- this works for shooters in conjunction with the secondary control- ok, check. It also acts as a gamepad. Stop. Do not pass go, do not collect $200. It's gamepad design is directly from the 1980s. We already know they expect to release all these add-ons and shit, and I bet you dollars to doughnuts that for any decent modern console game that's better played with a gamepad, this primary controller will be next to useless. And then what do you do? Shell out for the add ons.Then they quickly realized that with the controller being as precise as it is, they could rest it in their LAP and simply tilt it while their arm rests as you would hold a regular controller.
I own a Gamecube and PS2. That's console gaming. But by all means, please demonstrate your awesome reasoning that someone has to buy all sorts of stupid add-on shit to be considered a "console gamer".Bounty wrote:
Do you know anything about console gaming or are you just a flaming PC-wanker ?
Can you please show me where Nintendo has stated that the shell is not included? Last I heard it was currently up in the air, Nintendo has said the shell exists but we don't know what it looks like, what features it has, whether it is included, and if not how much it costs. Unless you have a statement by Nintendo stating that the shell is sold seperately, you are simply using your own random guess on the issue as your evidence. It should also be noted that the motion-sensing technology will still work with the shell if developers want it to.Vympel wrote:So basically, they were using it as an ersatz-mouse. It's still stupid. Think about it- this works for shooters in conjunction with the secondary control- ok, check. It also acts as a gamepad. Stop. Do not pass go, do not collect $200. It's gamepad design is directly from the 1980s. We already know they expect to release all these add-ons and shit, and I bet you dollars to doughnuts that for any decent modern console game that's better played with a gamepad, this primary controller will be next to useless. And then what do you do? Shell out for the add ons.
That every single console manufacturer will have default wireless controllers in the next generation suggests that 1. that the Rev controller being wireless isn't really a valid criticism as far as the console wars go and 2. you're a damn Luddite that's going to have to change with the times. Hell, I'm using a wireless mouse mouse on my laptop right now. Wireless technology is becoming standard; get used to it.Vympel wrote:I own a Gamecube and PS2. That's console gaming. But by all means, please demonstrate your awesome reasoning that someone has to buy all sorts of stupid add-on shit to be considered a "console gamer".
The Wavebird is just a fucking wireless controller. I hate wireless keyboards, mouse, and gamepads. I prefer cables. So excuse me for not bothering to be up on the latest wireless doohickey. Especially when it's for a failed system like the Gamecube.
FYI, I've tried wireless controllers, hated every one- except the Wavebird.Vympel wrote: The Wavebird is just a fucking wireless controller. I hate wireless keyboards, mouse, and gamepads. I prefer cables. So excuse me for not bothering to be up on the latest wireless doohickey. Especially when it's for a failed system like the Gamecube.
Using sarcasm to avoid a concession, are we?Vympel wrote:
Maybe they didn't go to the gym enough
So basicly, Vympel's right, everyone single reviewer who has actually used it is wrong, and we should all hail Vympel.Vympel wrote:Blah blah blah It's still stupid blah blah blah
Wow. That's like asking how many people have said Star Trek would beat Star Wars. I've heard it so many times I stopped remembering people who do.
Who said that the DS was a gimmick? Could you name a single person, or their reasoning for saying so?
Okay, now you're just running around with a "look at me, I'm ignorant!" sign on your head.
What? They're making a profit off of Gamecube? You kidding me or what? Or are you referring to their handheld systems, which are so obviously a red herring?
I can name several people that are very close to me that think the DS was going to be gimmicky. First off, my mother, one of my teachers, about 5 of my close friends, and Spanky the DolphinVympel wrote: Who said that the DS was a gimmick? Could you name a single person, or their reasoning for saying so?
That post was made Wed May 12, 2004 11:53 pm in the thread "Nintendo DS vs. PSP: FIGHT found HERESpanky the Dolphin wrote:The DS just seems to gimicky, though (that and it looks like it's made by Playskool).
First off, you forget that it will also be good for RTS's, not to mention the infinite possibilities for games like Zelda. In other news, there will be a shell controller, and IIRC, it looks like it will be included. If not, then the system is still only $150 and I can afford it.Vympel wrote:I've read them. Frankly, that usual marketing pap doesn't convince me that this is superior to keyboard/mouse or a regular gamepad to say nothing of the fact that none of these addressed whether doing this over longer periods (asides from the bullshit tech demos) is remotely comfortable.
And then you've got this crap about how great it could be for shooters- never mind there're other games on consoles- I'm sure one will be able to play them with a gamepad- that they'll have to buy themselves, of course. If I want to play a shooter, I'll use a keyboard and mouse. Of course, if they implement it effectively, I'm sure there'll be an entire new generation of twits who've never been near a PC who act like it's manna from heaven, just like Halo did for XBox.
You're gonna regret saying that. (emphesis mine)Vympel wrote: My arse it is. The idiotic thing about that claim is not only is it patently false just by looking at the thing (ie. basically how you hold it)- but they're making that argument based on playing fucking Metroid.
Metroid isn't a shooter.
And I'm Damn Proud of it.Vympel wrote:And you're a raving Nintendo fanboy.
I'm talking about the Gamecube, dipshit. As stated by other's on this board, Nintendo is in fact making a profit off their tiny purple cube. Not that their handheld's aren't making money. In fact, those bad boys are hammering the living crap out of the competition.Vympel wrote: What? They're making a profit off of Gamecube? You kidding me or what? Or are you referring to their handheld systems, which are so obviously a red herring?
This is coming from someone who claims that Metriod isn't a shooter.Vympel wrote: You're a fucking moron.
Like I said, name me one person who has actually playtested it that doesn't find it comfortable. I named my fair share of sources (one of them explicitly stated that he liked it better than his Keyboard/Mouse set-up)Vympel wrote:I'll repeat it, for the umpteenth time: anyone who thinks you'll be just as comfortable with this stupid ass setup as with a keyboard and mouse is an idiot. Period. Even delving into this idiotic red herring about whether or not I personally need to take a break (obviously based on no-evidence assumptions about how much gaming I do and for how long before I go off and do something else- which isn't a "break"), that will remain so. I don't get uncomfortable when using keyboard and mouse. Ever. Deal.
Your google-fu is weak. Seriously, look it up. What rock have you been living under to not know about the Eye-Toy OR Wavebird. You think that is a valid way to dismiss an argument? When I said I had limited experience with a powerglove, that was meant as a concession. At least I heard about it.Vympel wrote: Never heard of it, therefore don't care.
Goldeneye 64. Perfect Dark. Donkey Kong 64. Legend of Zelda: OCT. Super Mario. THE FIRST FUCKING CONSOLE TO HAVE AN ANALOG STICK! The 64 was the most revolutionary console of it's time.Vympel wrote: Smarter than to cream my pants about Nintendo's latest failed console idiocy before they really demonstrate anything? Yes, I am. I bought an N64, it sucked. I bought a Gamecube, it sucked. Why should I believe any of this crap?
This is where I flame you to a crisp.Vympel wrote: So basically, they were using it as an ersatz-mouse. It's still stupid.
Read My Lips.Vympel wrote: Think about it- this works for shooters in conjunction with the secondary control- ok, check. It also acts as a gamepad. Stop. Do not pass go, do not collect $200. It's gamepad design is directly from the 1980s.
Took you long enough to notice. To dismiss all wireless products because you "prefer cords," and using that to bash a system, is a red herring. You also dismiss all wireless products as "Doohickeys," which is a pretty retarded claim. And you can take you're failed console assumptions, and shove them up your ass.Vympel wrote:
I own a Gamecube and PS2. That's console gaming. But by all means, please demonstrate your awesome reasoning that someone has to buy all sorts of stupid add-on shit to be considered a "console gamer". The Wavebird is just a fucking wireless controller. I hate wireless keyboards, mouse, and gamepads. I prefer cables. So excuse me for not bothering to be up on the latest wireless doohickey. Especially when it's for a failed system like the Gamecube.
I may not have agreed with anything else he posted in this topic, but I would actually have to agree with Vympel on this issue. Just because you shoot stuff does not make the game a shooter. By that logic all the Zelda games, Super Mario Bros 1 and 3, Super Mario World 1 and 2, Chrono Trigger, and a bunch of other non-shooter games would also have to be considered shooters. Sure you shoot stuff in Metroid Prime, but that is not ultimately the focus of the game like it is in shooters but merely a small part of the overall game.Davis 51 wrote:You're gonna regret saying that.Vympel wrote: Metroid isn't a shooter.
<snip>
Nitpick: technically it is only the first post-crash console to have an analog stick, the GCE Vectrex Controller had one. However, the general point still stands.Davis 51 wrote:THE FIRST FUCKING CONSOLE TO HAVE AN ANALOG STICK!
Wait, why would you not consider Metroid Prime a FPS?TheBlackCat wrote:
I may not have agreed with anything else he posted in this topic, but I would actually have to agree with Vympel on this issue. Just because you shoot stuff does not make the game a shooter. By that logic all the Zelda games, Super Mario Bros 1 and 3, Super Mario World 1 and 2, Chrono Trigger, and a bunch of other non-shooter games would also have to be considered shooters. Sure you shoot stuff in Metroid Prime, but that is not ultimately the focus of the game like it is in shooters but merely a small part of the overall game.
What are you smoking, the only part of the game that isn't a shooter is morph ball mode, which is at most 10-20% of the game. The rest of the time you are shooting the ever loving shit out of anything that moves.TheBlackCat wrote: I may not have agreed with anything else he posted in this topic, but I would actually have to agree with Vympel on this issue. Just because you shoot stuff does not make the game a shooter. By that logic all the Zelda games, Super Mario Bros 1 and 3, Super Mario World 1 and 2, Chrono Trigger, and a bunch of other non-shooter games would also have to be considered shooters. Sure you shoot stuff in Metroid Prime, but that is not ultimately the focus of the game like it is in shooters but merely a small part of the overall game.
Wow, that's a pretty neat site. Thanks, TBC.TheBlackCat wrote:http://www.axess.com/twilight/console/d ... ctrex.html
Besides just shooting, there is a large element of exploration, item-collection, puzzle-solving, figuring out weaknesses in enemies, movement-based puzzles like jumping puzzles, item-based puzzles and problem-solving, and other elements that are associated with action-adventure games but almost unheard-of in shooters. How many FPS games do you know that have a dodge system like Prime? How many have a ton of well-made jumping puzzles? Prime has a ton of elements that are almost unheard-of in shooters but common in action-adventure games. Really the only thing that makes prime different than most other action-adventure games is the first-person perspective, otherwise the gameplay is a pretty traditional action-adventure gameplay. The primary mode of attack may be shooting, but unlike shooters attacking is not all there is to the game. Nintendo always referred to it as a "first-person adventure" game.KhyronTheBackstabber wrote: Wait, why would you not consider Metroid Prime a FPS?
TheBlackCat wrote: I may not have agreed with anything else he posted in this topic, but I would actually have to agree with Vympel on this issue. Just because you shoot stuff does not make the game a shooter. By that logic all the Zelda games, Super Mario Bros 1 and 3, Super Mario World 1 and 2, Chrono Trigger, and a bunch of other non-shooter games would also have to be considered shooters. Sure you shoot stuff in Metroid Prime, but that is not ultimately the focus of the game like it is in shooters but merely a small part of the overall game.
I am sorry, but I consider it a shooter, because I believe that it is the core focus of the game. Remember that it is possible for a game to have multiple genre's. While it does undoubtedly have adventure game elements, it is undoubtedly a shooter. At best, it's a shooter-adventure. It's focus on the shooting element is much, much stronger than the other games you mentioned.TheBlackCat wrote: Besides just shooting, there is a large element of exploration, item-collection, puzzle-solving, figuring out weaknesses in enemies, movement-based puzzles like jumping puzzles, item-based puzzles and problem-solving, and other elements that are associated with action-adventure games but almost unheard-of in shooters. How many FPS games do you know that have a dodge system like Prime? How many have a ton of well-made jumping puzzles? Prime has a ton of elements that are almost unheard-of in shooters but common in action-adventure games. Really the only thing that makes prime different than most other action-adventure games is the first-person perspective, otherwise the gameplay is a pretty traditional action-adventure gameplay. The primary mode of attack may be shooting, but unlike shooters attacking is not all there is to the game. Nintendo always referred to it as a "first-person adventure" game.
)For real? That's pretty awesome!TheBlackCat wrote: Nitpick: technically it is only the first post-crash console to have an analog stick, the GCE Vectrex Controller had one. However, the general point still stands.
Nintendo always referred to it as a "first-person adventure". Planetgamecube lists Metroid Prime as an action game and Prime 2 as an adventure game. IGN lists Prime as Action-adventure and Prime 2 as First-person Action Adventure. Gamepro list Prime and Prime 2 as adventure. Nintendojo lists Prime and Prime 2 as "first person adventure". Gamespy lists them both as Action adventure. Only gamespot seems to list it as a FPS, but in their review they refer to it as a first-person action adventure, going so far as to say "It's not a first-person shooter. Metroid Prime doesn't play like any other game that's come before it, and it emphasizes exploration and investigation at least as much as pure action." The IGN review, three planetgamecube reviews, and the gamespy review also all emphasize that it is definitely not a FPS. In fact, planetgamecube made a big deal about Metroid Prime Hunters being a FPS and how that was very different from the previous Prime games.Spanky The Dolphin wrote:But concerning the modern Metroid games, I recall the developers and publishers even refering to them as FPSs.
You really think they'll include it? If so, you have too much faith in companies.TheBlackCat wrote: Can you please show me where Nintendo has stated that the shell is not included? Last I heard it was currently up in the air, Nintendo has said the shell exists but we don't know what it looks like, what features it has, whether it is included, and if not how much it costs. Unless you have a statement by Nintendo stating that the shell is sold seperately, you are simply using your own random guess on the issue as your evidence. It should also be noted that the motion-sensing technology will still work with the shell if developers want it to.
Based on what metric? I'm sorry, all I need to do is go to any games store to see the Gamecube was a failure compared to PS2 and X-Box. The selection shelves speak for themselves. The fact that it failed in the US speaks for itself.Andrew J. wrote: Oh, and selling approximately the same as the X-box is "failure" now, I guess.
No, just recalling a mindless bit of apologetics.Praxis wrote: Using sarcasm to avoid a concession, are we?
You're an idiot, some of those "reviewers" (who are reviewing a prototype using mostly bodgy games slapped up in seconds) expressed the same concerns I have!So basicly, Vympel's right, everyone single reviewer who has actually used it is wrong, and we should all hail Vympel.
What astounding logic!
And their reasoning for saying so applies to this argument ... how?
Wow. That's like asking how many people have said Star Trek would beat Star Wars. I've heard it so many times I stopped remembering people who do.
I've heard dozens of journalists, even some company representatives (Phil Harrison of Sony for example), dismissing it as a gimmick and proclaiming that it's doomed to fail and the PSP will win. Hundreds of message boards as well.
Okay, now you're just running around with a "look at me, I'm ignorant!" sign on your head.
GameCube was only a failure in the U.S.- it has a worldwide marketshare of 14%, compared to XBox at 16%.
Oh, ok, it only failed in the US. Are you KIDDING? Dude, I could tell it failed in Australia just by walking into a games store.Yeah I suppose when you're spending zero dollars on it and have virtually no games for it any times someone buys it you make a profitHowever, the GameCube has sold at a PROFIT since launch. It only sold at a loss for one quarter (when the GameCube's price first dropped to $99) and currently is still selling at a profit.
And this doesn't tell you something?Nintendo makes money off every GameCube sold, plus games.
Sony loses money from every PS2 sold, but makes it back on games.
So what? The Gamecube's still a failure. To argue otherwise (dismissing the entire US market in the process) is sheer delusion.Microsoft loses tons of money on every XBox sold, and doesn't make it back
When you throw in the DS and Nintendo's majority marketshare in the handheld world, Nintendo is one of if not the most profitable video game companies in the world. Nintendo's gaming division actually posted a higher profit (but lower revenue- Sony had the most revenue, but also more losses, and thus Nintendo had more profits) than Sony, Microsoft, or EA.
Did you miss the part where I asked for reasoning to see if it applies to this argument at all? There's a reason I called it gimmicky.Davis 51 wrote: I can name several people that are very close to me that think the DS was going to be gimmicky. First off, my mother, one of my teachers, about 5 of my close friends, and Spanky the Dolphin
(Deep apologies to Spanky):P
If it'll be included, then fine. Which brings me to something else- just what do you think they're sacrificing to make this system only $150.00?First off, you forget that it will also be good for RTS's, not to mention the infinite possibilities for games like Zelda. In other news, there will be a shell controller, and IIRC, it looks like it will be included. If not, then the system is still only $150 and I can afford it.
Holding it as advertised, the 1up preview. I concede holding it differently will not be as uncomfortable.My turn. Name me one person, who actually playtested the damn thing (I'm not talking about Seriousgamer007), and finds it uncomfortable and hard to use. The articles I quoted were only part of each. I only quoted the Metroid Prime: Hunters. Not the fucking tech demos.
No, I'm not, because I own the game and no it's not a shooter, not like Quake, Duke Nukem, Halo, etc. Just because it's first person perspective and you ocasionally shoot at things does not a shooter make. And to rock you on this concept even more, I refer to the 1Up preview:You're gonna regret saying that.
I have to wonder about precision and speed in multiplayer games, but for a more deliberate single-player game like Metroid Prime
For a Nintendo fanboy, that you're demonstrably ignorant of how to classify it's most popular games is pretty sadQuod Erat Demonstrandum. Bitch.
Douche.Oh pahlease. As long as it's not in the US, right? The Gamecube failed. Stop trying to deny it.I'm talking about the Gamecube, dipshit. As stated by other's on this board, Nintendo is in fact making a profit off their tiny purple cube. Not that their handheld's aren't making money. In fact, those bad boys are hammering the living crap out of the competition.
This is coming from someone who claims that Metriod isn't a shooter.
Because it's not, dumbass.I already looked em up. You can see my comments in relation thereto above.Your google-fu is weak. Seriously, look it up. What rock have you been living under to not know about the Eye-Toy OR Wavebird. You think that is a valid way to dismiss an argument? When I said I had limited experience with a powerglove, that was meant as a concession. At least I heard about it.
I owned nearly all those games. You want to know something else? They're virtually the ONLY games I fucking owned for the N64! Because the rest were total shit! Who cares that it had an analog stick? It was a cartridge based piece of idiocy and is generally acknowledged to be so by any reasonable observer.Goldeneye 64. Perfect Dark. Donkey Kong 64. Legend of Zelda: OCT. Super Mario. THE FIRST FUCKING CONSOLE TO HAVE AN ANALOG STICK! The 64 was the most revolutionary console of it's time. Don't tell me you did not at least play those titles.
Bullcrap. Wow, you can name a handful of games, you think this demonstrates that the Gamecube wasn't a failure? Get real. All I need to do is look at how many games I bought for PS2 compared to how many I bought for Gamecube, walk into a store and look at the pathetically small Gamecube section filled with lame-ass games, or go on any gaming comic website and watch them mock the Gamecube.Not to mention the Gamecube, which has some of the best exclusive games out there, including but not limited to Resident Evil 4, Star Wars: Rouge Squadron, 2&3, Legend of Zelda: WW, the up and coming Twilight Princess, MGS: TTS, Metroid Prime: 1&2, Super Smash Bros: Melee, and many more. You can dislike the consoles, but, given that you haven't even heard of an Eyetoy, you have no authority to claim that a console "sucks"
I know that. As for "High Probability". I'll believe it when I see it.Read My Lips.
SHELL CONTROLLER! SHELL FUCKING CONTROLLER! HIGH PROBABILITY OF SHIPMENT WITH SYSTEM! SHELL FUCKING CONTROLLER!
Little to no fucking additional cost? No, I don't think so chum. I know I paid extra.Perhaps you were too fucking ignorant to notice that nearly every game that requires an add on comes with one in the box. That's why Donkey Konga comes with the Drums, Star Fox 64 came with a Rumble Pack, and Mario Party came with a mic. Regardless of how "gimmicky" you think those may or may not be, the fact remains that they came AT LITTLE OR NO FUCKING ADDITIONAL COST!
The Gamecube failed by any meaningful standard. I'm sorry if that hurts your Nintendo ears, but it's true.Took you long enough to notice. To dismiss all wireless products because you "prefer cords," and using that to bash a system, is a red herring. You also dismiss all wireless products as "Doohickeys," which is a pretty retarded claim. And you can take you're failed console assumptions, and shove them up your ass.
The 64 was also not as revolutionary as say... the PS1? It's ONLY contemporary of note? The N64 still used cartridges, and it's controller was an awkward peice of trash.Goldeneye 64. Perfect Dark. Donkey Kong 64. Legend of Zelda: OCT. Super Mario. THE FIRST FUCKING CONSOLE TO HAVE AN ANALOG STICK! The 64 was the most revolutionary console of it's time. Don't tell me you did not at least play those titles.
None of those items changed gaming noticibly for the better. Drums? Oh my. Gimmick, since it's used for one or two games and certainly isn't something you'll be playing years from now. Rumble pack? Yes, that CERTAINLy makes a great experience on it's own. Microphone? Right, like that would change games, like that Sony attempt to make a voice command driven RPG.Perhaps you were too fucking ignorant to notice that nearly every game that requires an add on comes with one in the box. That's why Donkey Konga comes with the Drums, Star Fox 64 came with a Rumble Pack, and Mario Party came with a mic. Regardless of how "gimmicky" you think those may or may not be, the fact remains that they came AT LITTLE OR NO FUCKING ADDITIONAL COST!
I don't live in Japan. Do you? As for profitabe over XBox, sorry, go look at the selection of games for XBox compared to Gamecube at your local store. Compare. That's how you build something on your brand. And I hate the XBox, for god's sake.Archaic` wrote:So it's a failure because it's more profitable than the X-Box by far, with a similar world marketshare, and is clearly #2 in the most profitable world market for Video Games, Japan.
Profitable doesn't mean good either. Take a look at a whole slew of garbage movies we see, compared to the occasional gem that nobody watches.Vympel wrote:I don't live in Japan. Do you? As for profitabe over XBox, sorry, go look at the selection of games for XBox compared to Gamecube at your local store. Compare. That's how you build something on your brand. And I hate the XBox, for god's sake.Archaic` wrote:So it's a failure because it's more profitable than the X-Box by far, with a similar world marketshare, and is clearly #2 in the most profitable world market for Video Games, Japan.
I've got to disagree with you on the controller. I didn't think it was awkward at all, and actually found it comfortable, and intuitive to use. I also preferred the N64 analog stick to the PS analog stick, because the PS analog felt too loose.Nephtys wrote: The 64 was also not as revolutionary as say... the PS1? It's ONLY contemporary of note? The N64 still used cartridges, and it's controller was an awkward peice of trash.
Your head is humming and it won't go, in case you don't know, the piper's calling you to join him