shields on the death star?

[Darth Tanner]

then that hole is large enough to fly multi gigaton warheads through,

Which everybody knows the Rebels had by the truckload,

In relation to this one point the Death Star was primarily designed to enforce order on the entire galaxy, as well as ensuring the loyalty of the Imperial fleet. The premise of the Death Stars defences being designed to resist a large fleet would mean that they would have to be able to resist not only just a independent species (the Moncal fleet for example) but also a major attack by rogue Imperial forces (Zaarin for example). These forces would have access to large scale warheads, especially if those big warheads onboard Acclamators were sold off after those ships were scrapped and they knew this was the best way to penetrate the shields.

I agree with your other points though Batman

[Batman]

Somebody missed the number of warheads needed for this to work, leave alone the infeasability of delivering them before the launch vehicles are blown to pieces.

[Darth Tanner]

They didnt fire at the X-wings until they were basically on the surface of the DS, I know this was largely arrogance on the part of Tarkin and the belief that fighters wernt worth the blaster energy to destroy but still this does show the ability to get close enough to launch weapons, atleast for bombers if not larger vessels.

Also if the larger missiles can perform to the standard of the missiles we see in AOTC & ROTS, which is unlikely due to larger mass, they could easily maneuver into position to target key systems such as the super laser targeting crystal (ok i know it only appears in the X-Wing game) or shield generators. Also the number of missiles needed to effectively neutralise (or even damage) the DS would be massive but a large fleet could carry enough, especially if they were intending to engage the DS and had time to plan and prepare for it.

All this does assume that the torpedo would go through the shields which it wouldnt likely being shot down (I imagine giant missiles are higher target priorities than snub fighters, even to Tarkin!)

If missiles did work in this way why would Star Destroyers not be equipped with them until post ROTJ? (as I was corrected earlier)

[Cykeisme]

Addressing the issue about the Invisible Hand's hangar bay shields, I may have an answer.

In Republic Commando, Delta Squad is aboard a derelict Acclamator-class ship that was hijacked by a large force of Trandoshans (and battle droids on loan from the CIS). A CIS Lucrehulk attempts to deploy additional battle droids into the Acclamator to thwart the Republic squad's attempts to retake the ship.

The Commandos didn't have control of most of the Acclamator's systems, including the hangar shield controls, so to prevent the droid carriers from entering the hangar bays, they blew up the hangar shields' power regulators.
Prior to disabling the power regulators, the shields held the atmosphere in the hangars, but they still allowed objects (like droid dispensers) to pass through. However, the destruction of the regulators apparently put the shields up to full power, which meant solid objects could no longer pass through.

Based on this, it would seem that the primary purpose of hangar shields is to hold in atmosphere, while letting ships pass. However, it's also possible to set them to be opaque to all objects. In fact, this is likely to be the default setting, except when friendly ships are entering or departing the hangar (note that Anakin flew through the hangar shield when droid starfighters were nearby in TPM).
Of course, a solid hangar shield is still just a secondary measure when compared with the ship's main shielding system.


Considering this is precisely what led to its destruction, I guess it isn't news, but the Death Star's lack of defenses against starfighters and large missiles is rather odd.

True, the Death Star's incredible number of turbolasers could probably destroy the launch vehicles (which would have to be capships, for gigaton-yield missiles) at extended range, but presumably there must be missiles which have a range as long as a starfighter can fly.
Considering the intelligence displayed by the Slave I's missiles, wouldn't heavy missiles have the same intelligence, combined with the size and range of a starfighter?

Perhaps the Death Star's TIE complement would deal with any such missiles..?

They didnt fire at the X-wings until they were basically on the surface of the DS, I know this was largely arrogance on the part of Tarkin and the belief that fighters wernt worth the blaster energy to destroy but still this does show the ability to get close enough to launch weapons, atleast for bombers if not larger vessels.

Good point. The fact that the Death Star didn't open fire on the Rebel fighters at extended range may perhaps be linked to the fact that no fighters would have been launched (were it not for Vader): Tarkin's arrogance.

The Death Star could have launched several thousand TIEs, but it didn't; perhaps it also could have fired on the Rebel fighters much earlier. IIRC, the problem that the heavy turbolaser emplacements had was traversal rate; they couldn't turn fast enough to track the fighters, so they attempted to unsuccessfully predict the trajectory of the juking ships.
If they started firing from longer range, the disadvantage of the low rotation and elevation rates would not come into play.


If I may be so bold to suggest this, perhaps the Death Star's shields can indeed be configured to have no gaps, but the settings that left fighter-sized gaps can also be attributed to Tarkin's arrogant insistence on ignoring the fighter threat?

[NRS Guardian]

After replaying through the part of RC where you're repelling the TF boarding attempts a thought struck me. It could be that particle shields and magnetic fields are the same system. (Edit: the only difference being the amount of power is put into it, or how "deep" it is.)
In RC when you damage the power regulator of the Acclamator's magnetic fields they can stop AT-TE shells and the TF boarding pods, rather like the IH's magnetic field. It could be that SW ships by increasing the power to their magnetic fields can stop stuff from getting in then lower power to allow your fighters to go in and out. Also, in the EU it says that it takes a bit of force to get through a magnetic field. Considering particle shields are volumetric it could be that like an atmosphere or magnetic field if something hits it really fast it'll be stopped or slowed down or if something is large it likely encounters more "friction". It could also be as a magnetic field like charges repel so if two shields of similar strength encounter each other they repel or cancel each other out leaving holes or weak spots where the two shields interact making it easier to penetrate at that point. Also instead of actual holes it could be that particle shields open up weak spots allowing fighters or missiles traveling slow enough to get out or in so instead of leaving holes in your defenses when launching fighters or missiles and retrieving fighters you weaken your shield in an area enough to allow things traveling relatively slowly to enter or exit.

[NRS Guardian]

snip

It seems we were thinking the same thing. Also, if the Acclamators missiles are any indication most capship missiles are larger than most starfighters it seems. Plus missiles have the disadvantage of being jammed or dcoyed, whereas a human-piloted starfighter isn't as likely to be effected by jamming.

[Lazarus]

Batman wrote:

Somebody missed the number of warheads needed for this to work, leave alone the infeasability of delivering them before the launch vehicles are blown to pieces.

The death star superlaser crystal is detailed in the ICS. If there were holes in the shields, then smart missiles could be flown through them. This would occur at the same speed the fighters were moving, and if the DS could have stopped them, it would have. The missile could then proceed to the crystal, and destroy it. Equally, the overbridge could be targeted, or the sublight engines. Although the DS big, you don't have to destroy every cubic metre of it to disable it. The rebel fighters could have chosen these attack routes, but clearly the exhaust port provided a more effective target.

Batman wrote:

And I take this quote to mean what it says, namely, tha the falcon passed through the particle shields.

Fine, but passing through a hole in the shields ISN'T passing 'through' them, by that literal logic. Therefore, there must be some way for the Fist to allow objects through its shields if it needs to, which fits quite nicely with the other line of debate here about the mag/particle shields. If indeed they are the same thing but with different power ratings, the power for that area of the shield could have been lowered to allow the Falcon through.

Batman wrote:

Excuse me? It was done in Tyrant's Test, as was mentioned before.

The torpedo in Tyrants Test is described as passing through the fluctuation between two completely different shield systems, which were generated close together in an attempt to create a single shield. The torpedo does not pass THROUGH the shields, it passes through the gap between them.

Batman wrote:

Because those holes are naturally going to be several kilometres wide.

What? Why would this need to be the case? A fighter is a dozen metres wide at the most, a hole this big would allow fighters like the TIE in Parasite through to hit the projectors.
The idea about 'holes' in the shields in the first place is speculation, and holes in the shields which need a slow speed to pass through is speculation about speculation.

I asked some time ago for someone to provide a quote which describes solid objects passing through the holes in shields which are created between the various independantly projected shields in a shield system. The best anyone has come up with is a quote about the Falcon passing through a particle shield, which if the idea about particle/mag shields being different power ratings of the same device is true, is easily explainable by the Fist simply lowering power to that part of the shield. I admit, this part is speculation too, however why is it any less valid than the 'holes' idea?

[Spartan]

Lazarus wrote:

Every source I have ever seen about shields quotes them as being a single, physical barrier, not something that gets progressively harder to move through the closer you get to the ship. In RotJ you see the frigates weapons hitting the shield actually, which is skintight. This is repeated when the Hoth Ion cannon hits the ISD in TESB, and in the falcon chase in ANH, and I think when the falcon flies through an explosion in RotJ, and on the N1's shields in TPM, and...do you see where I'm going here? Show me the scene where a laser bolt slows down and dissipates in a shield.

Clearly you have not reviewed all the avalible sources then. You also do not understand what a force field is or how they work. In the case of the frigate the shields did stop a few shots close to the hull, but that in no way indicates that shields are 'skin tight'. Similarly, the Hoth ion cannon was simply strong enough blow through the ISD's shields with little effort. In the case of the N-1 the shield not hull hugging, however its interaction with the surrounding air does create a visible surface temporarily. I don't have a scene that would show laser bolts slow down as ray shields to work that way. But particle shields do, re-watch TESB and see the lovely effects as asteroids slow to a complete stop as they strike ISD shields. If its laser bolts being stop at a distance by shields look at any of the Films, those flak bursts are primarily shield interactions. Or specifically watch the Tantive V shields splinter a laser bolt in the begining of ANH.

AOTC: ICS -

Conventional shield technologies use a range of force-field effects. Ray shield, for example, deflect or break up energy beams, while particle shields forcefully retard high-velocity projectiles. Normally, shield intensities diminish gradually with distance from the generator or projector. However, shields projected in an atmosphere tend to have a defined outer surface. Such a boundary becomes super-hot when left still, and mirage like affects are seen. Shields surrounding a moving airborne vessel are less visible, but can impact aerodynamic performance.

SWTC: Power Technologies -

The process of ray shielding involves the reflection, diffusion or absorption and transfer of harmful energies. However the firepower that the shield disposes can be far greater than the power that the shield generator draws from the ship's reactor. A mirror consumes no power when it reflects a ray of light. An initially concentrated light beam may diffuse in an opaque fog, without the fog requiring power input — this is an example of passive scattering. Analogously, the perfect deflection or splintering of incoming blaster fire may require little or no energy consumption. Splintering events are analogous to particle decay tracks photographed in the bubble chambers of old-fashioned particle physics experiments. The incident beam splits into daughter beams in a way that (generally) conserves the total momentum and energy. The daughter rays may decay further. The decay probability per unit length along a ray must depend on the energy density ratio between the beam and the ambient shield. If the decay rate is high enough, the recursive splintering cascade reduces the initially coherent beam into a diffuse ball of energy. When the decay rate is low, the shot passes through the shield volume with minimal (if any) splintering events.

Shields are forcefield and thus volumetric; and like real force fields they do not simply terminate at sharply defined surfaces as you suggest. They gradually weaken as they extend from the hull falling off in power at a square of their distance. Even particle shields do not form a 'physical barrier' at a set distance. To protect the vessel's it ray shields have to be strong enough to effectively dissipate enemy fire within a distance short enough that the hull remains unharmed. Depending on the intensity of the hit, and the strength of the shields, the interactions can vary in both nature and distance from the hull. As is seen throughout all the films.

Ray shielding and particle shielding falls off in strength at a distance. Meaning that a fighter can readily fly into the outer margins of a capital ships shields. Ray shields work on a passive scattering effect, well guess what that scattering is less effective the less of it you have to penetrate. The closer you are the less your energy weapon will decay.

Lazarus wrote:

This can also be explained by the shields being at different strengths, a much more reasonable solution given the overwhelming other evidence, as I have stated.

You have yet to present any overwhelming other evidence other than you don't like it. Besides which the shields being at different strengths, does explain why the Falcon can readily take MT hits, and still be threatened by KT hits every time she encounters them. Yes, there are possible explanation but the one you give would be the weakest.

[Lazarus]

I am aware that hypothesised RL force fields ARE volumetric, and the quote you provided from the ICS would suggest that at least some types of shields in use are volumetric.

Spartan, you say that the Hoth Ion cannon was strong enough to blow straight through the shields, however it is shown quite clearly on the TC site that some of the Ion blast does in fact disspate on a shield. This shield is a solid barrier.

Also, you state that the asteroids in TESB slow to a complete stop. If I punch the wall, my hand slows to a complete stop. The wall is not volumetric.

You talk about Flak bursts. As far as I am aware, the only flak bursts seen are on Hoth, where neither the speeders nor the AT-AT's have shields, or in RotS, where the falk bursts are exploding around the craft as flak is designed to do, and as the weapons are described as performing.

Furthermore, the shot in RotJ of the Executor and the Nebulon shows shots being fired, and then releasing their energy a short distance from the hull. If they were not striking a solid barrier, why would they release their energy? If these volumetric shields were in evidence, the laser blasts (plasma, as far as I'm aware) would either strike the hull (not happening) or would have their energy slowly (relatively) countered by the shields, until their energy is depleted. This would lead to a fizzling-out effect, not a sudden and abrupt halt, which is in fact what is shown.

I would also direct your attention to this page of the main site.
http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Tec ... ature.html
Clearly, these ideas have already been discussed, and due to the weight of evidence behind each of the arguments, or indeed lack theoreof, a number of hypotheses are shown. Your theory is shown as Number 2, with the main change being that the volumetric effect os only felt on the inside, with the outside having a sharply defined edge, which explains the abrupt halts. My supported idea is Number 3, ie, a two dimensional force wall.

Perhaps your idea has more real-world physics evidence behind it, however considering our infantile understanding of such complex matters, I would prefer to judge based on in-universe evidence, which to me suggests theory number 3. Given that all four theories are presented on the page, I assume that this topic has been discussed before with no true result.

[Spartan]

Lazrus wrote:

I am aware that hypothesised RL force fields ARE volumetric, and the quote you provided from the ICS would suggest that at least some types of shields in use are volumetric.

Actually the quote I provided states that conventional shields use forcefields, ie. most shields. It would fall upon you to prove that starship's do not use 'conventional' shield systems.

Spartan, you say that the Hoth Ion cannon was strong enough to blow straight through the shields, however it is shown quite clearly on the TC site that some of the Ion blast does in fact disspate on a shield. This shield is a solid barrier.

You misunderstand, I didn't mean that the sheilds were not dissipating the bolts. What I was say is that the ship was still taken out action in seconds by two shots. That's getting blown away in my book.

Also, you state that the asteroids in TESB slow to a complete stop. If I punch the wall, my hand slows to a complete stop. The wall is not volumetric.

No, but the electromagnetic force fields that allow you to make contact with that wall; rather than letting your atoms passing through it are volumetric in nature.

You talk about Flak bursts. As far as I am aware, the only flak bursts seen are on Hoth, where neither the speeders nor the AT-AT's have shields, or in RotS, where the falk bursts are exploding around the craft as flak is designed to do, and as the weapons are described as performing.

I suggest that you perform a search on 'shield interactions' and 'flak burst'. There is a vast amount of evidence that Flak bursts are in fact shield interactions. There is lots of evidence both in written and screen-shot form in the achives. There are few ways to ignite a flame war faster than to suggest that turbolaser can 'flak burst'. You also might want to re-watch AOTC as their are numerous shield interactions, during the battle of Genosis. The battle of Endor has them as well, specifically look at the battle as seen from the Emperor's throne room. The Falcon's escape from Hoth is another, prime example. When you watch these scenes note how the various bursts and shield interations occur at seemingly random distances for the vessel being targeted rather than at a single set distance as would be expected with a 'two dimensional force wall'.

Furthermore, the shot in RotJ of the Executor and the Nebulon shows shots being fired, and then releasing their energy a short distance from the hull. If they were not striking a solid barrier, why would they release their energy? If these volumetric shields were in evidence, the laser blasts (plasma, as far as I'm aware) would either strike the hull (not happening) or would have their energy slowly (relatively) countered by the shields, until their energy is depleted. This would lead to a fizzling-out effect, not a sudden and abrupt halt, which is in fact what is shown.

Okay, first let me correct you on one small point...Turbolasers are NOT PLASMA weapons. The 'solid barrier' you mention is the simply the distance from the projector that the force field is so strong the bolt is completely disrupted. Fizzle out is eactly what bolts do in a strong enough ray shield.

Clearly, these ideas have already been discussed, and due to the weight of evidence behind each of the arguments, or indeed lack theoreof, a number of hypotheses are shown. Your theory is shown as Number 2, with the main change being that the volumetric effect os only felt on the inside, with the outside having a sharply defined edge, which explains the abrupt halts. My supported idea is Number 3, ie, a two dimensional force wall.

Your right this has been discussed numerous times before, and to be clear no one on this board I know of subscribes to the notion that SW shields a two dimensional force wall. Darth Wong's address the nature of scifi-fiction shield technology in general not Star Wars specifically. He also asserts no conculsions about whether or not SW shield are volumetric or 'energy barriers' in that article. I know for a fact however, that he subscribes to the theory that SW shields are volumetric force fields. As I said do a little research into 'flak bursts', and you'll see him arguing exactly such.

I gave you two quotes by the way. The second was also written by Dr Saxton to further explain the ideas he put forth in AOTC: ICS. Note the description of ray shields being similar to an 'opaque fog'. That's hardly indicative of a two dimensional force wall.

Perhaps your idea has more real-world physics evidence behind it, however considering our infantile understanding of such complex matters, I would prefer to judge based on in-universe evidence, which to me suggests theory number 3. Given that all four theories are presented on the page, I assume that this topic has been discussed before with no true result.

So, you would prefer to throw out science, even when we have a canon tech manual that specifically describes shields as force fields. All force fieldsare volumetric by the way; and the last time I checked both AOTC: ICS and ROTS: ICS were in universe and canon.

[The Prime Necromancer]

I'd also like to see your proof that shields don't block sensors or weapons fire. If they block it in one direction, then logically it would go the other way (Since every example of shields we do have is "double blind" in that fashion.)

Really? I thought now it was accepted that shields were "one-way". At least, the recent thead on dumping heat came to that conclusion.

[Wyrm]

I'd also like to see your proof that shields don't block sensors or weapons fire. If they block it in one direction, then logically it would go the other way (Since every example of shields we do have is "double blind" in that fashion.)

Really? I thought now it was accepted that shields were "one-way". At least, the recent thead on dumping heat came to that conclusion.

Er, we did decide that, but that wasn't the problem we were working on in that thread, nor was "one-way" shields the solution to the sensor problem in particular, but to the dumping of heat via neutrinoes (though I'm still pondering over some physical details of a one-way shield: for instance, thermodynamic considerations seem to require the shield to give energy to a particle on its way out, even if the particle is traveling with the shield's bias, and so forth).

Shields and sensors are always at odds. Sensors require energy to come to the ship, which the shields seek to prevent. Barring a means of putting the sensor outside the ship's shield altogether, solutions usually fall along the lines of sensor windows: windows in space (holes in the shield that the sensor arrays can look out of), windows in time (the shield isn't up 100% of the time), and/or windows in radiation bands (the shields don't block all radiation indiscriminently).

EDIT: I can't spell today...

[The Silence and I]

The fighters passed through a long range magnetic field at very high velocity*, no mention is made of passing through a combat worthy shield later. I think the Death Star simply hadn't raised any combat shielding.

*Recall, the velocity required to move from the base to the DS is very high, while passing the magnetic shield the fighters would have been booking. They accelerate to attack velocity later, but recall that acceleration can mean either speeding up or speeding down. Attack velocity has to be slow enough to accomodate the human pilots when dogfighting, so the order "Accelerate to attack velocity" means to slow down. A lot. --so no Gungan or Dune -esque shield systems!

What is the magnetic field? Perhaps it is a by product of the reactor, maybe it clears the DS's path of charged particles that could interfere with sensors. --speculation, ignore it if you are allergic-- We don't know, except to say it was active and the combat shields were not.

Why wouldn't the DS raise combat shields? Energy costs come to mind, perhaps the fighters are simply not worth the energy. Recall that in ESB the ISD pursuing the Falcon does not raise shields against a known armed craft until they think it will try to attack them. Why not? Probably too energy intensive to raise them against a target that might attack. Another possibility is the DS didn't see the fighters until they closed to point blank range, I seem to recall scenes from the novelization depicting rushed confusion among the gunners who had to scramble into their stations when the fighters were suddenly detected at close range. My memory might be fuzzy though.

[Lazarus]

Spartan, I digress. From the evidence available to me, I can't think of any way to prove my idea is correct whilst yours isn't. Personally, I have never had cause to believe SW shields are volumetric, and this will remain my opinion, but I'm not going to argue the point any more.

Back off this long off topicness, Silence, I agree with what you've said there. If the fighters do not encounter a shield, why must we presume they have gone 'through' one? Why can't the shield simply not have been up?

[nightmare]

Another possibility is the DS didn't see the fighters until they closed to point blank range, I seem to recall scenes from the novelization depicting rushed confusion among the gunners who had to scramble into their stations when the fighters were suddenly detected at close range. My memory might be fuzzy though.

That raises the question of why a lone light freighter was detected at much farther distance. One could say jamming, but as I recall, it wasn't turned on yet. It seems logical that the DS1's sensor systems would be on alert and active in the direction of Yavin IV in particular.

You'd think they also expected rebel shuttles leave with VIPs onboard at the very least. Tracking them and report their leaving hyperspace trajectory to other Imperial bases seem like the least they could do.

[Spartan]

Lazarus wrote:

Spartan, I digress. From the evidence available to me, I can't think of any way to prove my idea is correct whilst yours isn't. Personally, I have never had cause to believe SW shields are volumetric, and this will remain my opinion, but I'm not going to argue the point any more.

While, not a concession. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree then.

Back off this long off topicness, Silence, I agree with what you've said there. If the fighters do not encounter a shield, why must we presume they have gone 'through' one? Why can't the shield simply not have been up?

You do realize that they are in orbit about a gas giant, right. You know with a powerful magnetosphere and intense particle radiation. Oh an the fact that they're about to pour 1.0E38 J of energy into a planetary mass! Having your shields up in a combat situation is a prudent thing to do, wouldn't you say?

I doubt anyone is ready to seriously entertain that the DS1 did not raise its shields. After all when they arrive at Yavin, they have no clue what sort defenses the Rebel may have, they know at the very least that the Rebels do posess some capital ships.

[The Silence and I]

You do realize that they are in orbit about a gas giant, right. You know with a powerful magnetosphere and intense particle radiation.

So? It may be the DS's own magnetic field protects them from that--or their armor is so thick they just don't care. Maybe the field is the gas giants, but that is highly unlikely given the dialog and the strength of field required to buffet a starfigher... So to conclude I do not see your point in raising this.

Oh an the fact that they're about to pour 1.0E38 J of energy into a planetary mass!

Two things here.
A) They can raise the shields at some point closer to firing--no need to run the shields for several minutes before you fire, all the while burning energy to accelerate around the orbit and charge the gun too. The fighters can easily slip in before they raise shields given there are several minutes to play with.

B) If you are correct and the shields have holes large enough to fit a fighter through (several fighters in formation I might add--this is not a small hole by anyone's measure) then what happens when the DS fires? Reflected and re-radiated energy from Yavin's destruction will flow through those holes and gouge miles into the DS structure. That would be a seriously stupid design. And you can't say the holes were on the far side of the DS because the fighters entered from the FRONT. Get off the holes already (addressing more than just you here), it doesn't work!

Having your shields up in a combat situation is a prudent thing to do, wouldn't you say?

Take that up with Tarkin. It is also possible they didn't know it was a combat situation until the fighters were inside.

I doubt anyone is ready to seriously entertain that the DS1 did not raise its shields. After all when they arrive at Yavin, they have no clue what sort defenses the Rebel may have, they know at the very least that the Rebels do posess some capital ships.

None of which makes it impossible OR unlikely the DS waited to raise them until some point soon before firing.
--Think about it, upon arriving they see a total lack of heavy ships (and while a few fighters may get past their sensors large ships will have a harder time unless powered down and they won't cause any damage without a powered reactor). The shields are a pain to power, so they feel safe and decide not to raise shields until clearing the horizon of the gas giant, at which point they can fire and the Rebels can use ground based weaponry. And finally, bring this up with Tarkin "I won't prepare my ship just because they might win."

That raises the question of why a lone light freighter was detected at much farther distance. One could say jamming, but as I recall, it wasn't turned on yet. It seems logical that the DS1's sensor systems would be on alert and active in the direction of Yavin IV in particular

It doesn't speak highly of their sensors, but I can explain this for you. The Falcon was detected at range for one or both of two reasons: 1) the TIE fighter reproted its location before being jammed and/or 2) the DS could see the Falcon after it started jamming--people often forget that jamming does not make you hard to see, only hard to pin point. By jamming the TIE's comms the Falcon shows up like a camera flash at night, it would become immediately obvious it was there to something nearby (like the DS).

[Spartan]

The Silence and I wrote:

So? It may be the DS's own magnetic field protects them from that--or their armor is so thick they just don't care. Maybe the field is the gas giants, but that is highly unlikely given the dialog and the strength of field required to buffet a starfigher... So to conclude I do not see your point in raising this.

Right because the a gas giant planet's rad field is trivial.

Two things here.
A) They can raise the shields at some point closer to firing--no need to run the shields for several minutes before you fire, all the while burning energy to accelerate around the orbit and charge the gun too. The fighters can easily slip in before they raise shields given there are several minutes to play with.

Point

B) If you are correct and the shields have holes large enough to fit a fighter through (several fighters in formation I might add--this is not a small hole by anyone's measure) then what happens when the DS fires? Reflected and re-radiated energy from Yavin's destruction will flow through those holes and gouge miles into the DS structure. That would be a seriously stupid design. And you can't say the holes were on the far side of the DS because the fighters entered from the FRONT. Get off the holes already (addressing more than just you here), it doesn't work!

You'll have to direct me to where I stated that the shields have holes in them. Conner was championing that theory, not I.

None of which makes it impossible OR unlikely the DS waited to raise them until some point soon before firing.
--Think about it, upon arriving they see a total lack of heavy ships (and while a few fighters may get past their sensors large ships will have a harder time unless powered down and they won't cause any damage without a powered reactor). The shields are a pain to power, so they feel safe and decide not to raise shields until clearing the horizon of the gas giant, at which point they can fire and the Rebels can use ground based weaponry. And finally, bring this up with Tarkin "I won't prepare my ship just because they might win."

Riiight! So, you upon see that their are not capital ships in attendance will order the shields lowered, despite the fact that the energy required to keep them up and running would be trivial. The DS is calculated to have absorbed around 1E30 J from Alderann's detonation. To charge the superlaser the reactor must output at least 1E34 W. Do you see why your argument that the shields draw to much power to bother with is stupid? They could easily maintain their shields 3 orders of magnitude lower just to be safe after all.

Oh and never mind the fact that the rebels may have called for help, that with hyperdrive could arrive at any time.

Sure it might be possible that the imperials didn't bother to raise the DS shields; but it is still stupid! Besides which their are plenty of other viable options rather than resorting to duhr...their so tactically incompotent, or stupefyingly arogant that they would not raise the damn shields!

[The Silence and I]

Right because the a gas giant planet's rad field is trivial.

Well, it is. Several meters or more of dense, high tech armor >> the rads from a gas giant. And that is just for the outer most decks, where the gunners are suited up anyway. All the important components are much deeper where there really is no chance of radiation damage. And their own magnetic field will offer the same kind of protection Earth's does! This is a non-issue my friend.

You'll have to direct me to where I stated that the shields have holes in them. Conner was championing that theory, not I.

Then I apologize for that, although I wonder how the fighters can get through a shield without holes. They are moving too fast to do it Gungan/Dune style, they cannot pierce it due to the differences in power and the fact they are not specialized to pierce shields, and they never report passing through one. Please tell me how they pass a shield without any holes, tricks, or momentum filters, and never mention it anyway.

Riiight! So, you upon see that their are not capital ships in attendance will order the shields lowered, despite the fact that the energy required to keep them up and running would be trivial.

You are assuming they dropped the shields after scanning the system. I would assume they never raised them in the first place (unless you posit they left them up ever since Alderaan, but that is going to be hard to prove for a number of reasons I hope I don't have to spell out).

The DS is calculated to have absorbed around 1E30 J from Alderann's detonation. To charge the superlaser the reactor must output at least 1E34 W. Do you see why your argument that the shields draw to much power to bother with is stupid? They could easily maintain their shields 3 orders of magnitude lower just to be safe after all.

I do not recall the numbers that tell us how much shield power is required to stop X energy, nor do I have to explain why it is impossible for them to have raised shields--I happen to think they could have, but didn't.

Oh and never mind the fact that the rebels may have called for help, that with hyperdrive could arrive at any time.

And do what? Exiting hyperdrive is very noticeable, the DS will raise shields upon noticing the new threat. Ships cannot start firing immediately, they have to find the DS, get their bearings, get into range, shift power to the shields and weapons, etc. There is time on the DS's side, no need to raise them (and even if it would be smarter you still have to show they HAD raised them. Telling us it would be smarter works about as well as telling us it would be smarter to scan for all known dangerous materials during transport in Star Trek rather than just a few--we know they miss some)

Sure it might be possible that the imperials didn't bother to raise the DS shields; but it is still stupid! Besides which their are plenty of other viable options rather than resorting to duhr...their so tactically incompotent, or stupefyingly arogant that they would not raise the damn shields!

The ISD chasing the Falcon in ESB didn't raise shields until it turned and charged them--despite being armed with omnidirectional weapons capable of targetting and destroying the bridge windows while running, with no warning. Tell me again why I should assign tactical genius to these guys? Or maybe the energy drain really is large and needs to be considered, making the cost not worth the benefit. Either way I can explain why Tarkin does not raise shields after seeing no large threats.

Try to look at things with the assumption shields are a huge energy hog, and you have only so much fuel, and things become clearer. Only raise shields during a real threat, like a direct ship to ship engagement, not when a few small vessels show up packing tiny weapons.

[Wyrm]

The Silence and I wrote:

So? It may be the DS's own magnetic field protects them from that--or their armor is so thick they just don't care. Maybe the field is the gas giants, but that is highly unlikely given the dialog and the strength of field required to buffet a starfigher... So to conclude I do not see your point in raising this.

Right because the a gas giant planet's rad field is trivial.

Not trivial, perhaps, but far more economically countered with a good, strong magnetic field of your own. Hell, a chunk of metal that big would probably quickly aquire a magnetic field whether they like it or not. Unless whatever the hell they make it out of isn't ferromagnetic.

Of course, that would have the effect of creating van Allen radiation belts around the DS, so take that for what it's worth.

Riiight! So, you upon see that their are not capital ships in attendance will order the shields lowered, despite the fact that the energy required to keep them up and running would be trivial. The DS is calculated to have absorbed around 1E30 J from Alderann's detonation. To charge the superlaser the reactor must output at least 1E34 W. Do you see why your argument that the shields draw to much power to bother with is stupid? They could easily maintain their shields 3 orders of magnitude lower just to be safe after all.

Oh and never mind the fact that the rebels may have called for help, that with hyperdrive could arrive at any time.

Sure it might be possible that the imperials didn't bother to raise the DS shields; but it is still stupid! Besides which their are plenty of other viable options rather than resorting to duhr...their so tactically incompotent, or stupefyingly arogant that they would not raise the damn shields!

If the DS had its shields up, then either the starfighters (a) slipped through the holes in the field (which would likely be closed up after they fired the superlaser), or (b) the starfighters are hardy enough and have enough shielding for their wetware components (the pilots) to weather the passage through the particle shield. Considering these things are meant to stop cruisers and the like, as well as protect the bow from the backwash of a planet going boom, that's gotta hurt.

If the shield doesn't have perforations in it, then at that point, it wasn't raised to a high enough power to prevent the fighters from slipping through.

[Spartan]

The Silence and I wrote:

Well, it is. Several meters or more of dense, high tech armor >> the rads from a gas giant. And that is just for the outer most decks, where the gunners are suited up anyway. All the important components are much deeper where there really is no chance of radiation damage. And their own magnetic field will offer the same kind of protection Earth's does! This is a non-issue my friend. Wink

Conceded

Then I apologize for that, although I wonder how the fighters can get through a shield without holes. They are moving too fast to do it Gungan/Dune style, they cannot pierce it due to the differences in power and the fact they are not specialized to pierce shields, and they never report passing through one. Please tell me how they pass a shield without any holes, tricks, or momentum filters, and never mention it anyway.

Well shields are force fields they get stronger as you get closer to the projector. A question though, why do you believe that the ray shields should stop the fighters from moving through them? The particle shield and ray shields don't have to extend the same distance from the DS. The particle shields for instance might only become a problem at dozen meters above the DS surface.

You are assuming they dropped the shields after scanning the system. I would assume they never raised them in the first place (unless you posit they left them up ever since Alderaan, but that is going to be hard to prove for a number of reasons I hope I don't have to spell out).

No, I assumed that like Han Solo they would prudently, exit hyperspace with their shields raised. That seems to be the standard operating procedure, and sensible as well.

I do not recall the numbers that tell us how much shield power is required to stop X energy, nor do I have to explain why it is impossible for them to have raised shields--I happen to think they could have, but didn't.

Shielding be its very nature must require less power than the weapons used against them or the would be little point in using them.

To quote Dr. Saxton:

The process of ray shielding involves the reflection, diffusion or absorption and transfer of harmful energies. However the firepower that the shield disposes can be far greater than the power that the shield generator draws from the ship's reactor. A mirror consumes no power when it reflects a ray of light. An initially concentrated light beam may diffuse in an opaque fog, without the fog requiring power input — this is an example of passive scattering. Analogously, the perfect deflection or splintering of incoming blaster fire may require little or no energy consumption.

And do what? Exiting hyperdrive is very noticeable, the DS will raise shields upon noticing the new threat. Ships cannot start firing immediately, they have to find the DS, get their bearings, get into range, shift power to the shields and weapons, etc. There is time on the DS's side, no need to raise them (and even if it would be smarter you still have to show they HAD raised them. Telling us it would be smarter works about as well as telling us it would be smarter to scan for all known dangerous materials during transport in Star Trek rather than just a few--we know they miss some)

The ROTJ novelization depicts the remains of the Rebel fleet bombarding the DS2's surface with such fury that the entire station was physicaly rocking from the impacts! That sounds like a good reason to raise shields to me.

The ISD chasing the Falcon in ESB didn't raise shields until it turned and charged them--despite being armed with omnidirectional weapons capable of targetting and destroying the bridge windows while running, with no warning. Tell me again why I should assign tactical genius to these guys? Or maybe the energy drain really is large and needs to be considered, making the cost not worth the benefit. Either way I can explain why Tarkin does not raise shields after seeing no large threats.

Alternately, only the bridge shields might have been down to facilitate communication with the rest of the fleet. We have no way of knowing which. The ISD captain knew that the Falcon was no real threat. Tarkin on the other hand had no clue what was waiting for him in the Yavin system.

Try to look at things with the assumption shields are a huge energy hog, and you have only so much fuel, and things become clearer. Only raise shields during a real threat, like a direct ship to ship engagement, not when a few small vessels show up packing tiny weapons.

Shields are not a huge energy hogs at least not in comparison to the DS's other systems, and there is not need to run them at maximum capacity you know. By the way when have we ever seen any SW warship have to forsake shields to fire its weapons at maximum or move at is peak acceleration? The answer is never. In terms of peak reactor power you can maximum weapons fire, or maximum acceleration, but not both. The power require for shields is miniscule in comparision.

You can't seriously belief that fuel is an issue for the Deathstar. It can after all fire multiple 1.0E38 J shots, fly through hypespace and accelerate at a kilometer/sec^2. That battlestation has power to burn.

[Spartan]

Wyrm wrote:

Not trivial, perhaps, but far more economically countered with a good, strong magnetic field of your own. Hell, a chunk of metal that big would probably quickly aquire a magnetic field whether they like it or not. Unless whatever the hell they make it out of isn't ferromagnetic.

Of course, that would have the effect of creating van Allen radiation belts around the DS, so take that for what it's worth.

That's what I always assumed the magnetic field was for. I's still have my navigational shields up at minimum though.

If the DS had its shields up, then either the starfighters (a) slipped through the holes in the field (which would likely be closed up after they fired the superlaser), or (b) the starfighters are hardy enough and have enough shielding for their wetware components (the pilots) to weather the passage through the particle shield. Considering these things are meant to stop cruisers and the like, as well as protect the bow from the backwash of a planet going boom, that's gotta hurt.

If the shield doesn't have perforations in it, then at that point, it wasn't raised to a high enough power to prevent the fighters from slipping through.

1. Flying through the ray shields shoudn't effect the fighters much, at that's all that really necessary to protect the battlestation from its only really threat...capital ships. It could be that the ray shields were up and only navigational particle shields were raised or non at all.

2. We know that shields are vector sensitive, why is it an issue for them to simply fly slowly through the particle shields. We have canon proof that such is possible.

3. The holes that Connor suggests might realy exist.

4. Or the shields might be down completely.

After 5 pages of speculation were still no closer to a definitive answer, and I doubt one is forth coming.

[Lazarus]

As far as I was aware Connor's holes theory was based on the dialogue in the film concerning passing through the magnetic field. If, as has been suggested, and as I also believe, this magnetic field was a natural by product of such a huge object, then it is not a projected shield of any kind. After passing this field, the fighters accelerate to attack velocity (as has been said, this may mean an increase or decrease in speed), and no mention of shields or fields is made after this. If after this point they had passed through these hypothetical holes, surely some mention of it would have been made?

But do I have a better explanation? All I can suggest is that, as Wyrm has said, for whatever reason (most likely Tarkins arrogance IMO) the shields were not raised past navigational power, and would not have been until the superlaser had fired, and power was redirected immediately. Does anyone have some ball park figure for how long it would take debris from Yavin 4 to hit the DS after the superlaser would have fired?

[Spartan]

Death Stars distance from Yavin 4 = 250,000 km from yavin (Dr. Saxton)
Velocity of Alderann's debris field's leading edge = 1.2E4 km/sec (Wong)
Average velocity of Alderann's expandinf debris field = 6.0E3 km/sec (Wong)

Assuming similar mass for Yavin 4 and Alderann and the superlaser

Time for the debris field to reach the Death Star = 20-41 seconds

Still want to push the idea that it was more effiecent to leave the shields down until after they fire?

[Wyrm]

All I can suggest is that, as Wyrm has said, for whatever reason (most likely Tarkins arrogance IMO) the shields were not raised past navigational power,

First off, dearheart, I did NOT say that the shields weren't raised. I just said that, if the shields were raised, that (barring the fighters slipping through holes in the shield) they weren't raised to a high enough level that the fighters, moving at the speed they were, they could weather a trip through the shields with themselves and their human cargo intact. (This goes for ray shields, too, by the way. Although the ray shields are designed specifically against ray-based weaponry, I have some doubts that it's healthy to pass through a strong ray shield.)

I don't find it a big stretch that the DS shields may have settings other than "on" and "off". I also note that Red Leader ordered that the squad should put their own deflectors on, "double-front", which might also help penetrating a deflector field as well as ward off nasty van Allen radiation.

That being said, I find the holey shield explanation pretty likely, due to Dodonna explaining that the Empire didn't believe the Rebellion's little fighters were any threat to the DS, "or they would have a tighter defense." This line has many interpretations, but I would think that if the DS's shields themselves were arrayed tightly, it wouldn't matter if the DS's other defenses where too loose. Although this explanation is predicated on whether the DS had its shields up at the time the fighters slipped in, it does provide an alternate hypothesis to the "dumbshit commander" interpretation.

After passing this field, the fighters accelerate to attack velocity (as has been said, this may mean an increase or decrease in speed), and no mention of shields or fields is made after this.

No more mention of the shield would be made after they start their attack, because at that point they would be irrelevant, as they would be under the main body of the shield.

But do I have a better explanation? All I can suggest is that, as Wyrm has said, for whatever reason (most likely Tarkins arrogance IMO) the shields were not raised past navigational power, and would not have been until the superlaser had fired, and power was redirected immediately.

I would think that something called "operating rules" would require that the DS make sure that its shields were powered up and fully assembed on the hemisphere facing the planet before actually firing the superlaser. How long before? Long enough so that if the DS shielding personel discover that the shield is acting wonky, that they have ample time to call in fire control and say "cancel that fuck!" before fire control has to regretfully reply, "whoops, too late!" That way, they don't get the backwash of a planetary explosion in the face.