The Size of the Droid Army "Retconned"

Mange · Post by **Mange** » 2006-04-12 09:43am

Cykeisme wrote:At this point I might seem a little off topic, but has anyone watched the scenes on Utapau recently? The clone troopers drop like flies! In fact, the Utapau scenes show far more clones dying than droids. There was this part right at the beginning where five clones charging the droids get shot and die at once, all at the same time.

Actually, yes. I watched ROTS this weekend, and it struck me that the first line of clones were killed and also that the clone/droid kill ratio wasn't very impressive (from what can be seen).

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2006-04-12 09:54am

Cykeisme wrote:At this point I might seem a little off topic, but has anyone watched the scenes on Utapau recently? The clone troopers drop like flies! In fact, the Utapau scenes show far more clones dying than droids. There was this part right at the beginning where five clones charging the droids get shot and die at once, all at the same time.

That kind of kill ratio is not sustainable for the Clone Army, but it should be noted that they initially thought they had to move aggressively into the hangar area because their General was surrounded by thousands of battle droids and in imminent danger. So there may have been a bit of recklesness, added to the natural defenders' advantage.

Cykeisme · Post by **Cykeisme** » 2006-04-12 09:55am

I'll have to properly count them off, but I think that onscreen, there are actually more clones killed than droids!

I was inclined to attribute it to selective camerawork by the imaginary "historical-eye view" camera (like the Ewok deathtoll being glossed over), but the clones are supposed to be the good guys.
Therefore, the only explanation is that the clones really aren't superior, at least in the kind of fighting they were doing.. admittedly they had the tactical disadvantage of fighting inward into a built-up urban area against a prepared foe, but they obviously don't have the kind of ability disparity over battle droids that some people suggest.

VT-16 · Post by **VT-16** » 2006-04-12 10:55am

Ugh, not this again:

Hodge's newest obsession (Behind the scenes-section)

Teleros · Post by **Teleros** » 2006-04-12 10:59am

@VT-16: What complete pillocks. Do they honestly believe 3.2 million men can fight a Galactic-scale war like this? And putting it into Wiki too..

VT-16 · Post by **VT-16** » 2006-04-12 11:09am

Once again, I had to clear that shit out and put it in even more simple terms. You'd think we didn't have to spell things out as if the readers are kindergarten kids.

Just check out the history of the article (as well as the GAR one) for a laugh. It's nothing BUT Hodge on a proverbial soapbox.

And putting it into Wiki too.. What the fuck?

Notice that, every time he did that, he also removed the reference to ITW:AOTC and CLOSW (where they stated "millions of divisions").

nightmare · Post by **nightmare** » 2006-04-12 11:32am

I've spent a good deal of time reading up on Poe and others battling on SW.com, some more time listening to Nathan Butler (oh the painful horror!) over his "canon question" bullcrap since JTS (mod on sw.com) keep saying we're wrong about our interpretation of canon, and the only piece of evidence he's offered so far was that. Then some more time reading more travissties.

Nevermind that JTS is inconsistent; he claims the Technical Commentaries are useless fanwork while at the same time he has the gall to point us to ChronoRadio as an example:

JTS wrote:These cases are documented in Nathan Butler's ChronoRadio Special Edition #1: The Canon Question (which, incidentally, all of you "Canon Beats All" fellows should look into).

It's also covered in his Timeline. I'm sure I don't have to link to it by now, and I think I've already given you the address to it, j-man.

Since I want to spare you one and a half hour of Butler crap, I'll just say that Butler subscribes to the "two sagas" view, even though he also quotes Leland Chee - "There is one overall continuity". Darkstar would be proud of him.

Now, this doesn't directly apply to the Tiny Army of the Republic; but that's just the latest iteration of the basic problem.

The Shroud of the Dark Side is upon us.

Post by **Vympel** » 2006-04-12 11:38am

Who gives a crap what Nathan Butler thinks? Not only is that radio segment old, ie. before Leland Chee called "parallel universe" for the erroneous bullshit that it is, but from listening to it, and I have, to suggest that Nathan Butler would actually subscribe to Darkstar's particular brand of "we must ignore the parallel universe" nonsense is unfair to him. See his analogy at the end.

Darkstar means nothing to debates about canon within the Star Wars online community. He's not part of it. To be active in that community, you have to acknowledge the validity of the EU to some degree. He's practically the only person who doesn't (for obvious reasons), and those who try and peddle their crap on SW.com are quickly marginalized and ignored by all, including VIPs, who have always either ignored or rebuked their ranting.

And by "those" and "their" I am of course, referrign solely to the one or two Darkstar True Believers who thought if they posted their inanity on SW.com they'd somehow make an impression.

Mange · Post by **Mange** » 2006-04-12 11:45am

VT-16 wrote:Ugh, not this again:

Hodge's newest obsession (Behind the scenes-section)

Does this person(s) actually claim that Conqueror-class ships would've been used? It's a tiny ship that only can carry a single passenger for crying out loud (in addition to what's been added).

VT-16 · Post by **VT-16** » 2006-04-12 11:51am

Hodge used it as an example, so apparently he must think it's valid.

And he's changed it again, back to soapbox status.

Jim Raynor · Post by **Jim Raynor** » 2006-04-12 11:58am

Mange the Swede wrote:
VT-16 wrote:Ugh, not this again:

Hodge's newest obsession (Behind the scenes-section)
Does this person(s) actually claim that Conqueror-class ships would've been used? It's a tiny ship that only can carry a single passenger for crying out loud (in addition to what's been added).

Of course the assault ships couldn't have been Conquerors. That doesn't matter to McDumbshit, who will claim anything to try to defend his precious minimalistic EU sources.

Jim Raynor · Post by **Jim Raynor** » 2006-04-12 12:03pm

Teleros wrote:@VT-16: What complete pillocks. Do they honestly believe 3.2 million men can fight a Galactic-scale war like this? And putting it into Wiki too..

It's frightening, but they do. Have you read the thread at theforce.net? The the lengths they are willing to go to in an effort to "explain" a 3.2 million man GAR is amazing. We've already explained many times why that number doesn't even come close to making sense, but just don't get it. They're that fucking stupid.

VT-16 · Post by **VT-16** » 2006-04-12 12:10pm

I even pointed out somewhere that the "millions of divisions more" is a vague and perfectly fantasy-esque statement, that doesn't bind itself to hard numbers.

Reverted the article and written an email to one admin previously involved in this.

nightmare · Post by **nightmare** » 2006-04-12 12:33pm

Vympel wrote:Who gives a crap what Nathan Butler thinks?

The problem is, some people evidently do. As for the age of it, it's revision # III. He is also one of those claming the TC is merely fanwork, and regardless of his actually says, he was actually mentioned as an authority in the canon matter, and as an explanation over how "movie trumps all" isn't true. Ahem.

VT-16 · Post by **VT-16** » 2006-04-12 12:38pm

You know, I'm sad that my second email to Butler went unfinished. It was a civil debate I had started with him, but I lost interest in continuing it.

To this day, I wonder if my lack of reply signifies a "concession" in his mind. ;__;

Mange · Post by **Mange** » 2006-04-12 12:57pm

I'm sorry for going slightly off-topic. I of course knew that Traviss is touchy (despite what her blog says) and that it's impossible to talk to her on controversial issues such as the three-million figure, but take a look at her reaction when someone (by mistake perhaps? He clearly expressed that he enjoyed Triple Zero) called Odds a fanfic:

+http://forums.starwars.com/thread.jspa? ... tart=01275

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2006-04-12 01:09pm

Welcome to the New Order, where "consistency" means "not ruffling the wrong peoples' feathers" rather than any reference to logic, realism, or an accurate continuation of what the original films tried to portray.

Jim Raynor · Post by **Jim Raynor** » 2006-04-12 01:32pm

I don't mean to take this thread off-topic either, but while we're posting slightly OT stuff, let me just point out this disgusting display of cocksucking at TF.net:

+http://boards.theforce.net/literature/b ... 0520/p1/?7

Ackbar_Van_Gungan wrote:*snip repetitive "Palpatine was manipulating everything" bullshit*

Oh, and McEwok when do I get my special Red Ewok?

Thrawn McEwok wrote:Ackbar van Gungan, I herebly present you with Thin Red Ewok, Tipped With Steel™!

Though these "awards" may be silly and make-believe, people are actually seeking them from McEwok? Excuse me while I vomit...

Mange · Post by **Mange** » 2006-04-12 01:53pm

I read over at Wookieepedia that almost four billion B1 droids escaped Geonosis, stored aboard Lucrehulks. Is that from AOTC:ItW?

VT-16 · Post by **VT-16** » 2006-04-12 02:25pm

Out of the 60 delopyed on the battlefield, 46 core ships escape with their cargo. The reason more didn't, was because they wanted to load up on battle droids rather than take off half-full.

Cao Cao · Post by **Cao Cao** » 2006-04-12 02:29pm

VT-16 wrote:Out of the 60 delopyed on the battlefield, 46 core ships escape with their cargo. The reason more didn't, was because they wanted to load up on battle droids rather than take off half-full.

There's also the fact that they were undergoing upgrades for compatability with the new Baktoid line of droids the Techno Union was providing, according to the AOTC ICS. Some core ships were still in the middle of this and it delayed launch.

VT-16 · Post by **VT-16** » 2006-04-12 02:38pm

EDIT:

Forgot to say that the only thing I read in AOTC:ICS was 66 million cubic meters of cargo-space per ship. Nothing about how many droids were there.

VT-16 · Post by **VT-16** » 2006-04-12 03:48pm

Ok, fellow wookiepedians, Hodge is dead-set on believing the two accounts of "millions of clone divisions" are mis-prints or errors, so stay on the alert. (He's been trying to "make a solution with other people" on the talk-page for GAR, so that's where I saw it).

Jim Raynor · Post by **Jim Raynor** » 2006-04-12 03:59pm

VT-16 wrote:Ok, fellow wookiepedians, Hodge is dead-set on believing the two accounts of "millions of clone divisions" are mis-prints or errors, so stay on the alert. (He's been trying to "make a solution with other people" on the talk-page for GAR, so that's where I saw it).

What fucking bullshit. I'm there.

VT-16 · Post by **VT-16** » 2006-04-12 05:54pm

I saw you removed the line about "no specific numbers". I actually put it in there to be more diplomatic, but I won't protest too loud about it. :P